In part two of their fictional betting scandal series, Alex and Bobby are joined by reporter and friend of the show Bradford William Davis to discuss the nature of the scandal, how MLB would handle it, and the pernicious nature of sports gambling’s expansion. They use real life examples of institutional issues to draw conclusions on what MLB’s plan (if any) would be for a scandal of this magnitude. Listen to part one of the gambling scandal series here.
Follow Bradford William Davis on Twitter @BWDBWDBWD.
Tipping Pitches features original music from Steve Sladkowski of PUP.
Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t tipping his pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Now, it’s every time I started this podcast, and I don’t have a cold open that has nothing to do with baseball, but something to do with maybe politics, culture, or just our broad senses of humor. Anytime I don’t have one of those things, I truly— I truly feel so unmoored. Like, what— I’m supposed to just introduce the podcast and talk about the thing that we’re gonna talk about?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I’m supposed to just—
ALEX: I mean, I could—
BOBBY: —like, refer back to the real episode we did last week and talk about how we have a great conversation coming up with Bradford William Davis, friend of the show and general smart baseball person, about gambling and the state of industry? I’m supposed to just do that?
ALEX: Do you want me to just— I can just run through news headlines if you want and you can pick— pick your cold open.
BOBBY: Well, that would be really good in particular, because we’re recording this two weeks in advance, like [1:14]
ALEX: Two weeks in advance, so it’s gonna be— it’s not gonna be stale.
BOBBY: No. It’ll be right on the money.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And to be clear, these are real news headlines, not fictional news headlines like last week’s episode.
ALEX: I’ve already lost the plot, but we are back.
BOBBY: Where do you— where do you think RFK will be two weeks from now when this episode runs? Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. Could he be commissioner of baseball by then?
ALEX: Stop. Don’t put that out there.
BOBBY: Don’t put what out there? Step up or step down from Rob Manfred?
ALEX: Can you be commissioner of baseball and in a presidential cabinet?
BOBBY: What are they trying to make him, like Health and Human Services?
ALEX: I don’t care. I don’t know. Why are you making me talk about RFK, Jr. two weeks in the future, or the past?
BOBBY: Because you’re going to be in Europe on vacation, and I’m not going to be able to crack these jokes with you in real time.
ALEX: No, what you’re saying is, I am in Europe on vacation right now.
BOBBY: Right, exactly, as we speak.
ALEX: As the listeners hear this.
BOBBY: As not as we speak, though.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: As it’s being heard. I’ve never thought the whole like, “Oh, we’re recording in advance, the timelines thing.” Like, that’s a level of pulling the curtain back that I don’t think podcasts— podcasters need to do as often as they do.
ALEX: Need— need to— yeah.
BOBBY: And yet we are doing it right now.
ALEX: Taking great pains to do it. No, we’re back with part two.
BOBBY: Part Two.
ALEX: Of our fictional betting scandal.
BOBBY: Where we talked about the fictional betting scandal as if it were real and talk about what we think would happen.
ALEX: Right. But then also acknowledge that that it’s not real, but it could be.
BOBBY: And it might as well be, frankly, honestly. We invited friend of the show, Bradford William Davis on to do that. Bradford has covered not a scandal of this magnitude, but he has covered the way that Major League Baseball institutionally responds to things, such as the way that they handled the baseball controversy, the literal baseball. How there were different baseballs coming around, how they couldn’t get their stories straight, how they didn’t have message clarity about any of it, how they lied in some places and they were honest in other places, how some people were saying one version of the story, and how Commissioner Manfred was holding back on that version of the story in order to try to help save face. You know, it’s not totally related to— to betting and how they would be demanded to respond to a scandal of the magnitude of the fictional one that we came up with last week. But, like, they can only be them, right? They can only react the way that they react, whether it’s to a larger scandal or a smaller scandal. They are who they are. I want— much like Kesha said, “We are who we are.”
ALEX: Yep. Uh-huh. No, I— we— we had a really good conversation with Bradford about this “scandal,” scare quotes around it, but— but also just more broadly about what the— the sort of burgeoning institution of sports betting means for baseball, how a league might respond to a scandal of this caliber and— and also, then what? You know? Then how—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: Then, how do we sort of grapple with that as— as fans, as consumers of this game? How does that sort of change the path that the— that the game is on? And— and what does it mean to tie your sport up in something that is so financially beneficial to you and also potentially pernicious to your very consumers?
BOBBY: Uh-hmm. If we swallow too many of our consumers, do we still have a sport? If we admire them in debt, do we still have a sport?
ALEX: Right. The— the goal is to swallow 49% of the consumers.
BOBBY: Yes, yes.
ALEX: So we still have a majority of them.
BOBBY: Yes, correct. This all feels very like housing crisis, by the way. I didn’t— we’re— I— we were truly too far down the rabbit hole in the conversation with Bradford, but, like, the sports betting, creating people who only want to bet and who aren’t really interested in how the baseball game goes, so we’re not creating new fans. So there’s no longer anything real tying people down to the sport, but they want them to still place their literal money, like take their paycheck and just shove it towards the sport. But if they don’t have that level of institutional relationship to it, then it’s no longer tied to reality.
ALEX: Frankly, surprised it took us, like, seven years and change to compare Major League Baseball to the housing crisis. That feels like a layup for us.
BOBBY: You can’t say for certain that we never did.
ALEX: I know, you’re right.
BOBBY: You don’t— you don’t know that, and neither do I and no one does. That’s the ephemeral nature of podcasting. All right. We’re gonna go— we’re gonna go to part two of the betting scandal with Bradford. But before we do, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: Friend of the show, Bradford William Davis is here. He’s here to help us do a— a conversation about a fictional podcast that we published last week. But really, he’s just here because we love talking to Bradford. Hi, Bradford. How are you?
BRADFORD: Good to see you both. I’m doing all right.
BOBBY: We catch Bradford here on vacation. Look at— Alex, we’re interrupting Bradford’s vacation for this dumb shit. Like, what’s going?
ALEX: I know. We’re avoiding my vacation so that we can interrupt his.
[laughter]
BRADFORD: I was— I was told that this is cereal season, whatever.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Yes. Yeah.
BRADFORD: Is this cereal season, whatever? Or— or— or if you guys—
BOBBY: Well, many people have said—
BRADFORD: —bamboozle me once again?
BOBBY: Many people have said we’re sort of like the— the institutional New York Times of baseball podcasting. Like, that’s how people think of us, right?
BRADFORD: Ah, okay.
ALEX: Yeah. This is our first concept album.
BOBBY: Oh, yeah, true.
ALEX: You got to— you got to start somewhere.
BOBBY: Is this the flute album? Did we just put out the flute album? Damn. Bradford, you’re here to help us— help us talk about our betting scandal episode from last week, and really, just kind of like speak hypothetically about whether Major League Baseball would be ready for something like this. What would happen if something like this were to unfold? And now, for— for folks who maybe don’t remember from last week, or maybe skipped over last week and are just firing this up because it’s at the top of their queue—
ALEX: Don’t do that. Go listen to the last one.
BOBBY: Yes. My first piece of advice would be, go listen to the last episode, because it will provide all of the details that we are about to talk through here, and because we put a lot of work into it. But I’m just going to do a run through briefly of the details. We put out a fictional episode about a betting scandal last week, and talked about some of the ways that it would unfold, the different power players within it, how people would react, a— an idea of how a betting scandal might start to unravel within the world of baseball. In that, there was a college baseball program in which two coaches got ensnared in sort of this pitch tipping scandal, which, by the way, had to layer that in there for the Tipping Pitches heads. And it then affected two players who went on to get drafted to the same Major League Baseball team, and they were involved in hush money payments for keeping it quiet. And it was essentially like fixing a College World Series game. And it didn’t get revealed until they were at the Major League Baseball level. And so Rob Manfred, Commissioner’s Office, the FBI, the NCAA, they had to decide who gets to punish whom, and where, and sort through all of the very complex details of this scenario. And we’ve invited you on here, Bradford, to talk about what the hell would happen if something like this happened in real life? Because, like, we’re not crazy in thinking, like, it could happen basically tomorrow, right? Something like this could happen pretty soon.
BRADFORD: I mean, like, frankly, it— it’d be crazy not to think something like this is kind of happening now.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
BRADFORD: And we just don’t know it yet.
ALEX: I— what was your reaction— we— we reached out to you. We— we said, “Hey, can you do this with us?” You graciously said, “Yes.” You kind of signed a blank check. Like, you— I probably gave you the kind of rundown, but, you know, we sent you the script ahead of time. Kind of coming out of reading that, what were your first thoughts? Was it like— like you just said, like something like this could already be happening? Is it like these— these guys are crazy?
BRADFORD: Yeah. I mean, like, I think that the most likely place for a gambling scandal is the kinds of settings that you are hypothesizing, a place where there’s not that much money in it yet, in the actual income you make from the sport. Because, you know, NCAA does not pay people directly, but there’s— you know, there are NIL rules, so some people can make some money off of that. They— I would wager that baseball— you know, even though Nil Baseball is not making as much as, you know, football, basketball, or, quote-unquote, “conventionally attractive women in women’s sports.” So with all that— with all that said, you know, I bet you, like, there is a opportunity, I think, to bet on yourself, wink, wink, especially if, you know, if you don’t think that you are necessarily a shoo in to be a big league star one day. So, I mean, why not? I mean, like, honestly, like, the thing is that— this is fictional, but, like, it’s not, like, it’s a— it’s fictional in the way that, like, good fiction is fictional, and that is— and that feels very real, you know? Like, what— you know, what— why not take a chance at some riches or just— you know, being able to pay the rent if you’re not one of those scholar athletes, let’s say. You know, in the college level. Which, you know, as— as— as, you know, they’re not there— particularly in— in NCAA baseball, they’re not a lot of scholar athletes per team [11:41] it’s like 30 and a half, something like that, right? At least currently. Might be going up soon. You know, like— like, there is a clear incentive to— to kind of work what you can and— and— and I think baseball is a sport that is particularly prime for betting scandal, perhaps more so than other sports, because it is so much less fluid and based on discrete events happening. The Jontay Porter thing is probably the biggest pro level gambling scandal so far in our betting age, in our— at least in our,—let’s call it the betting age of this, like, last, you know, five, six years, right?
BOBBY: Yeah. Yeah. Since— since the Supreme Court ruling allowed states to start legalizing and [12:24]
BRADFORD: Right, exact— exactly. You know, beyond Vegas and— and the online sports betting. And since then, you know, I mean, like Jon— you know, like, but— but basketball is a much harder sport to do that because so much— there’s so many more variables at play that factor into what happens on the court. Like, you know, like, whether it’s a shot, a rebound, assist, a steal, et cetera. Like, you know, whatever— whatever— you know, all the kinds of statistics that you could be betting on.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: Like, there’s so many more— more— more active people in it. You may not even get a ball in possession, you know? Pro— you know, I mean, you may not get the ba— you may not— you may not have the ball in your hand for more than 20 total seconds during the entire— your entire run in the rotation, for all— you know, for all we know. When Jontay Porter was putting up those, you know, you know, those weird stats of crazy amount of traffic on it, it just [13:14] everything. You know, it’s— it’s [13:16] but clearly there’s something wrong here, which is how the NBA found him out. But going back to, you know, baseball, right? Like, even with pitch clocks and, you know, like in— in college, baseball is not like, you know, affiliated ball, but like, you know, there is a— every single event stands on its own.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: You know, strike one, stop. Strike two, stop. It’s very easy, particularly for a pitcher and, you know, a little less so for— for a hitter, but still, for a hitter to simply choose to swing on a first pitch or choose to throw a ball.
BOBBY: There’s so much reasonable doubt in baseball. Like, there is— there are a lot of explanations for why something might happen. And I think— as we were talking about where it’s like these events are so discreet. And also, you know, if we reference back to the— the episode from last week, this fictional thing that we cooked up was, okay, they— the strength coach and the pitching coach, they put together a scheme that revealed what pitches and the location of those pitches were coming for the opposite team. Now, that’s not— that’s not too far of a cry from what Houston did to— to cheat and pick up signs in Major League Baseball a few years ago. It’s obviously something completely different, because it has the whole betting angle. But that’s also something that could happen in the routine course of baseball. Like you could have a tip, you could give it away, and your best pitcher could get blown up in the middle of the College World Series just because he was tipping the pitch. And so it’s very easy to sort of, like, concoct the situation like that that is intentional, that to fans is entirely imperceptible, which is why so often when I hear— like, if we start to examine, I guess, like the— the systems of power, like, in place at the Major League level, or even at the collegiate level, that talk about things like the integrity of the game. You know, we can’t ever allow sports betting to infringe on the integrity of the game. The integrity of the game is simply just fans’ perception of the integrity of the game. And I think that we— and part of why I wanted to write it this way was, like, I think we were maybe underrating how quickly that can go away. Integrity of the game and how it’s being affected by the presence of sports betting isn’t a real thing. It’s just a perception that fans have, because sports betting—
BRADFORD: Hmm.
BOBBY: —is affecting the game already. Players are already thinking about fans who are angry at them for their parlays, who are threatening family members because of their parlays not hitting. You know? Who the ads are in the outfield constantly. The presence of it is there, whether it’s conscious or subconscious. And so to me, like, while the scandal in this case would be like, okay, there are two players who might have to get suspended for this or who are involved in a Federal Bureau of Investigation. Like, to me, really, the scandal here is, like, this is inevitable in some ways, and I don’t know that— I’m sure Major League Baseball has a contingency plan for it, but I would love to see, like, what that is. Do you think— like— like, does Major League Baseball have break glass in case of emergency, this bad thing happened in our league? Because they don’t put off that vibe that they do have that.
BRADFORD: You would like to think that they do, but when you’re around Major League Baseball long enough, it’s hard to believe that they— they do, too. You know [16:49] you went back, you mentioned the parallels with the Astros sign stealing scandal. And we know this through, you know, a lot of good reporting, Evan Drellich probably, you know, the most prominent well-known and impactful of the journalists who— who— who were really digging into that. We know that MLB was warning teams to stop messing around for— you know, throughout the 2010s, not ju— and not just the Astros. We know about that signed letter of the Yankees. We know about the Yankees and Red Sox stuff. We know about the— you know, we know about the Astros and Red Sox in 2018. Like—
BOBBY: The apple [17:30] baby.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: Like, those— you know, again— like, I’m not saying any of these things necessarily rise to the heinousness of the 2017 team.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: You know, we— we know— Erik Kratz even, you know, talked about, like, the Rockies in 2018 or something [17:45] the Rockies. The, you know, the— the constant innovators and all that— you know, Colorado Rockies, apparently— you know, it’s a illegal sign stealing scheme going on. And yet, they [18:05] the— the MLB seemed so flummoxed by the exposes that came out at the end of 2019 that, like, they felt they needed to offer full inde— you know, full indemnity or whatever, right? Like— or— you know, to all of the players on that team in order to get as much information as possible. And it’s like, “My brother in Christ, like, how did you not know?” Like— or— or— or didn’t you know [18:34] that you didn’t know. Can you tell me more?” Like— and so I share that to say, like, you know, the— you know, any— any competent organization should, but I think you should always assume that institutions that have legally entrenched themselves to be too big to fail, but literally through things like—
BOBBY: Antitrust exemption.
BRADFORD: [18:58] yeah, anti— antitrust exemption, excuse me. Yeah. Like, institutions like— you know, institutions that are— you know, that have been trans— legally [19:05] to be too big to fail, are dumber. You’d hope. You should always assume they’re, like, 10 to 20% dumber than you think they are.
BOBBY: I mean, you’ve covered them not having answers to obvious problems that were going to crop up, like within the last two years. Like, the— the baseball is changing. They knew that was happening, and they still didn’t have a—
ALEX: A thing— the thing your sport is named after. You’re still like—
BOBBY: Really? They didn’t—
ALEX: “—We don’t what goes on in there.”
BOBBY: They didn’t have a consistent story to put out. Like they didn’t get the alibi straight before those stories came out. Like, you got Dr. Meredith Wills grabbing baseballs, measuring them, and they still didn’t know what to do, right? Like, this is an organization. It’s like—
BRADFORD: It was notable that, like, you know, that the league’s spokesperson admitted what the commissioner wouldn’t. [19:59] the league and produced and used multiple baseballs, except in— in degrees what he— what he did, like, you know, behind the scene— like, he— the spokesperson told me— just going back to 20— you know, the multi-ball scandal stuff that I’ve reported on in the past.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: Like, at the end of 2021, the [20:20] used two different baseballs. But then there was an ESPN profile that— a big one on— on Rob Manfred the next year, where Manfred said, “No, we— we always use one baseball.” Like— and when I asked him again, he’s like, “Yeah, you know, there were multiple baseballs at one time.”
[laughter]
BRADFORD: Like— again, like, just, you know, message discipline, basic, you know, stuff or things that often followed away— so again— again, you know, don’t be fooled by the suits and the fancy degrees. Like, you know, assume wha— assume worse.
ALEX: You know, as fans, when we— when we talk about, you know, sports betting and the— the dangers it might pose to the, quote-unquote, “integrity” of the sport, it’s easy for us to think back on the historical examples that we already have in the sport, right? It was— it was a— a team that got together, that— in part, to kind of stick it to their owner said, “Well, we’re going to throw this game.” Right? It was a— an individual player, one of the most famous in the sport at the time, who said, “I think I can get away with this, not necessarily throwing games, but placing bets in— in ways that I should not have been.” Right? And it’s easy to kind— kind of, like, comprehend that. I feel like as a fan, it feels very cut and dried. You’re not allowed to cut on baseball— to bet on baseball and you did. Something tells me, again, as— you know, as we built up this story, that the— the truth is often far stranger and far more nebulous than, I think, we’d like to parse out in our— in our heads as fans. And then it’s not just going to be a star who that son [22:09] himself to not— you know, to hit the under on strikeouts or something like that. Like, it may reach down to levels that are a little below our— our radar, like the Minor Leagues or college baseball, as we’ve kind of already seen. I— I’m curious how you think the league can, if at all, sort of respond to this sort of thing. Obviously, they have jurisdiction over Minor League players who are beholden to the same standards that— that Major Leaguers are. But when it comes to amateurs, it feels like there’s a little bit more of a gray area, even though it’s no less dire. So I— I mean, like, were a sort of scandal to unfold at a college— at a college’s baseball program, per se. I mean, what do you think the response would look like from Major League Baseball, aside from the kind of, like, [23:03] plate, like hand wringing. Like, we care about our sport, this is terrible. You know, like, what is— what— what can they really do in response to this sort of thing?
BRADFORD: I think the most important part would be a scapegoat.
BOBBY: Hmm.
BRADFORD: If you have seen gender rights, who can be thrown on a bus?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Fascinating answer.
BRADFORD: I think it’s—
BOBBY: Fascinating answer.
BRADFORD: Yeah, I think it’s kind— I think it’s kind of— kind of simple as that, you know? There may be talk of a [23:30] may— may be a real [23:32], but I believe that ultimately the goal of it will be preventing liability and protecting the [23:43] is the same, you know, with NFL.
BOBBY: Yeah.
BRADFORD: Scandal of a similar nature. Who can be blamed easiest and most as a way of making sure that the commissioner and the 30 owners and employees work as clean as possible.
BOBBY: Yeah, nothing sticks to them. I mean, Major League Baseball, it strikes me that they are a— an organization that is acutely aware of how they are perceived, and they are constantly trying to massage that perception. They don’t want to be perceived as too regional anymore. They don’t want to be perceived as too old anymore and boring anymore, so they roll out something like, “Let the kids play,” even though they don’t really embody that ethos most of the time, from top to bottom in the way that baseball is developed in America. And so, yeah, I never really thought of it that way, but it would be how many people can you protect by inviting someone to fall on the sword in exchange for not revealing some of the more pernicious hypocrisies of owners just lining their pockets with sports betting money, with gambling money, which, by the way, a lot of the talk around when they were saying yes to a lot of these partnerships, it wasn’t just about, “Oh, well, this is going to be a cash influx into the game, and we need the cash.” Even though that was the obvious subtext of all of it. A lot of the talk was, “Well, people like to bet on sports, and it’ll make it more fun for people, right? It’ll make it more fun for fans. It’ll make the— it’ll make it more engaging for fans.” But really, it’s like you’re almost backdooring in the virus into the sport by saying, “We need to fix the code here. Like, everybody’s a little bit bored, and so we’re going to allow this fun, juicy thing, which is betting on our sport, to sort of add a little bit of, like, an injection of life, an injection of caffeine into the experience.” But you’re also, at the same time, kind of under— undercutting like, “is any of this real? These people are all just, like, pretending to care a lot about this thing, and if it feels like it could be fixed, because money is in the line from gambling companies, which are incredibly powerful, or even just like bookies who are not part of a larger company, but who carry a lot of weight. I don’t know. I’m like— I’m— I’m really interested in the idea of, like, the losing hold of the perception of integrity.
BRADFORD: Yeah, I think it is a scenario that you presented. Perhaps the most, like, straightforward way to with— with— which to avoid integrity concerns is the fact that it happened— one is that it happened in a college baseball setting first. Second, is that because they are players and they are protected by a union, it is a easy place with which to score points against labor.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: We, Major League Baseball, protect the integrity of the game as you said— as you— as you just said, you know? Even when, you know, our workforce inspires against our efforts to protect the integrity of the game. This message is sponsored to you by, you know, Aaron Paul. Thank you for [26:58] like, whatever— whatever— whatever— whichever one he does. He’s so— he’s so serious, he’s so intense. If you’re— I don’t know, like, I just see— it’s constantly under— during [27:08] games.
BOBBY: Yes. Yes.
BRADFORD: Like [27:11] you know?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: With like— this, like, CGI stadium environment, and he’s like— and he’s— and he’s just like— he’s sermonizing on the importance of getting his bet in, you know? And— and— no, no. But—
BOBBY: Fucking Aaron Paul and Bryan Cranston, they’re available. Call them up. They’ll do what—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —you want them to do for the right amount of money.
ALEX: They’re cashing checks right now.
BOBBY: They’re cashing checks.
BRADFORD: Yeah, man. So that’s like— that’s my take as far, you know— at least with the— with— with my— in the scenario that— that you guys, you know, conjured, Alex and— and Bobby. Like, going back to 2020, if you remember, there were two baseball players who got caught sneaking out during the pandemic. They were on the Guardians.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: And, you know— and so MLB— what MLB did was— you know, I mean, just MLB, but, like— but, you know, there was a lot of blame on these players, of course, for— for doing what they did. And that was understandable, given— especially— especially given the situation of it being like a pre-vaccine era in our pandemic. And they were in Cleveland, so their teammate— happened to Carlos Carrasco, who, you know, was literally— literally in remission for cancer. It’s like, “What are you guys doing? Knock it off.” But there was very little of a zoom out critique of the league, as I recall, in the reception of it, as far as, you know— you know, staging games during, you know, a public health crisis, and messaging it as sort of essential part of American life to have—
BOBBY: Hmm
BRADFORD: —these— to have these games.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: Rather than sort of partnering with the effort with which to contain and manage COVID in a better way when people are still, like, dying in mass, you know, this country. It was much easier to just, kind of, like, voice blame on the players rather than on the, you know, the institution that was quite arguably putting these players in this [29:17] anyway by, you know, by having them, you know, play, and then also marshaling huge loads of resources with which to— that were needed by true, quote-unquote, “essential workers” who are using that for— for— for sports. You know, like, there’s always an, you know, an easy, individualized, kind of like explanation for scandal, you know, the sort of bad apple—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: —philosophy and approach and strategy with which to—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: —deal with— with a scandal. But the whole bunch is, you know, is— is the shield, is the institution, MLB. And— and my Bible says, “The Satan will never cast out Satan,” so—
ALEX: Well, it’s also like— like, people forget that it’s—
BOBBY: Requisite Bible quote, check, check, check the box. We did it.
ALEX: Yeah, there you go. It’s like three— three straight episodes.
BOBBY: Hell yeah.
ALEX: It’s like— yeah, a few bad apples. That’s true. How does the rest of that saying go? Spoil the bunch, I think. Like—like, it is, I think, a really interesting framing that you’re bringing up, right, that— and I think you’re spot on that MLB— and— and sports leagues at large, I think, are happy to— like, I don’t want to say that Adam Silver wanted Porter to get suspended, but also, I think was happy to make an example out of him, right? And say—
BOBBY: Absolutely.
ALEX: —and say, “Look, this is— this is someone who ran a foul of our— the guardrails we have in place and we will not stand for that sort of thing.” It’s a lot easier to— to point the finger in that regard. Because frankly, if you go any further beyond that, I think you have to start grappling with some, like, really dire questions regarding, like, public health and how sports betting dovetails with that, right? Like, we are rapidly, I think, hurtling towards, like, maybe crisis is a little melodramatic, but I think maybe we, as a society and— and sports league specifically, are maybe not entirely equipped to sort of deal with the fallout of this kind of thing over the next five to— to 10 years. And— and it’s hard because there’s no middle ground, right? There’s no middle ground of where you say, “Yes, this— this is an— an addictive quality that is impacting members of our, you know, world, and also, we should continue doing it with moderation, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: It’s a lot easier to be like, “It was one person. We put the— we put the gambling hotline at the end of the ad, so like they knew what they— you know, they knew the number to call.”
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And— and I don’t have an answer for that, or even a— a question for that, but it does feel like they are leaning really hard in one— in— on one side of that debate. And I think you can only hold out there for, like, so long.
BOBBY: It strikes me like— we live in an era of like, quote-unquote, “acceptable risk,” you know? Acceptable damage that the error bars of what the harm that corporations are allowed to cause or the management consultants that they hire to tell them where the line is between when they go too far and the public will start to turn on them. And not— no longer maximize their profit. And, like, MLB and all sports leagues, are not unique in this way. They make decisions based on things like that. And so when it comes to sports gambling, there is a reasonable amount of addiction that they are willing to inspire in exchange for the profit. And they probably like, have those numbers, like, literally, those numbers exist in a PDF on a drive somewhere. There is a reasonable amount of scandals that they’re willing to put up in exchange for the profit. And there— what— so what I mean to say is like they— the decision to say yes to this implies that they know those things. They’re not doing it thinking that it’s going to go perfectly, because as much as we want to joke about them being stupid, they’re not stupid and naive to all of this stuff. They know— there is a certain level of, like, cold, clean, nefarious management consultant inspired theology behind all of these decisions that they make. And so the very existence of them saying yes to partnering with all of these sports books all of the time is also a tacit— tacit acknowledgement that they’re willing to accept a scandal. That it— that it’s okay. That it would be worth it to them, and that they would maybe change the calculus, depending on the size of the scandal and what it metastasizes to.
BRADFORD: Management consultant inspired theology is an incredible turn of phrase, like I will use that. But, yeah, it’s— it’s— it is— it is a— it is holy rate provided by, you know, McKinsey or who— whoever, you know, they went to. Either, you know, literally, you know, for an audit or— or figuratively, due to the educational backgrounds of so many people who work in— in— in— in pro sports and baseball come from. They went to them, and they kind of— just kind of doctrinally accepted. “Beep, boop, beep. If we make more money at the end, it’s all— it’s— it’s fine.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: If our— if our accountant— if our— if our balance sheet says we need more money at the end, whether or not we are— actually are losing more money in the long run because no one likes you anymore, and no one believes in you anymore. It’s fine if the balance sheet today, you know, says is black instead of red. You know, like that is— that is the inherent problem with the incredible velocity and apparent lack of guardrails that MLB has got— you know, has left into the online sports business— online— online betting business. And it will possibly be their downfall, because, as you mentioned, it is— it is just— it is just theology, and there’s no— there’s— but there’s no sort of practical grounding or empirical grounding—
BOBBY: Yes.
BRADFORD: —with which to compliment it. And that takes into account that the stain isn’t worth it, because eventually someone else is going to, you know, not— you know, someone else with money may not want to own that team anymore, because of what— because the returns were already earned.
ALEX: I’m really interested to see what the tipping point is, if it exists at all. Then maybe there isn’t one, right? Maybe it’s just hurtling full steam towards the wall until we hit it. And— and, you know, maybe that’s fine. We can all go down together. But, you know, again, like this industry is a— is a few years old, and for a while, you know, I’ve kicked around the idea of, like, is this like a— a bubble? There’s billions of dollars—
BOBBY: Hmm.
ALEX: —being poured into this, right? And leagues are staking, like, their livelihood on it, right? They are latching onto this. Like, it’s RSNs, you know? And I— I don’t know— I’m just— I’m interested in your perspective, Bradford, on like— like— like, eventually, you run out of money to bet.
BRADFORD: Damn.
ALEX: But I guess on the— on the— on the other hand, there’s always—
BRADFORD: No, no. I mean—
ALEX: —there’s always a stooge down the block who’s ready to— you know, who’s ready to win that parlay? If you’re—
BRADFORD: No. No. No, listen, dude, you’re— you’re onto something. Look, my opinion, gambling may be around, but you know, for, perhaps, ever, because it’s kind of always been in a human nature with which to take dumb risk on things. Frankly, it’s why we’re sports fans.
ALEX: Right.
BRADFORD: That’s why in— in a very craving way, it’s a perfect marriage. But—
BOBBY: Damn. Dead to rights.
BRADFORD: You know, but—
BOBBY: He’s got me dead to rights, right here on my own podcast
BRADFORD: Like— like— like— like— like yo, [37:25] which I’m talking to a Mets and a— and a, you know, an Oakland, quote-unquote, “A’s fan.: Like, you know, like, that’s— you know, that’s not like— you’re not— you’re not winning in life.
ALEX: That’s for sure.
BRADFORD: If you— if you— if you— if you were— if you were to, like—
BOBBY: Local— local podcast host found dead in ditch.
[laughter]
BRADFORD: If you were to stay state, like, you know, anything, but like, you know, your— your— your sports life on— on these two teams and their futures.
BOBBY: Yeah. Yeah, you’d be fucking broke.
BRADFORD: Right? But, like, there is— first of all, the margins on gambling, for the house, are quite slim. There’s a lot of money being pumped in and a lot of these, you know, online betting startups into crowding the market. You know, like, remember— remember when— when it came to New York, right? Like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
BRADFORD: Like, how insane— the insane incentives you had to— to bet, right? Like, it’d be like, you know, bet $5 and get, like, season tickets to— you know, I don’t know, whatever. Like, I mean— I mean a little facetious, but like, it was crazy. Like, it was— there was a point where me, knowing I don’t— like, an addictive personality when it comes to gambling. I was just like, “Yo, I might as well just, like, bet a couple of times and just, like, get stuff. Get this— get this free jersey.”
ALEX: Right.
BRADFORD: Like, you know, get— you know, get the tickets, get whatever, because they’re giving it to me, you know? Like—
BOBBY: Right.
BRADFORD: —they are literally just giving me— giving you money for— for playing their game. That’s done because they’re trying to become— you know, they’re trying to saturate the market— sa— saturate the market and— and hopefully get enough addicts, enough problem [39:04] essentially, with which is the same— yeah, you know, the same institution. But the margins are still going great. You know, DraftKings— did— did they, like, just unprofitable, like, recently? Like— like, don’t— don’t hold me that. But, like— but— but there— you know, but there are serious questions about the long-term profitability of this— a lot of speculation. When— if— there is ever a legalization of other forms of online gambling, the— the state, there simply won’t be enough money to go around, in my opinion.
ALEX: Right.
BRADFORD: Like, God forbid—
BOBBY: Yeah.
BRADFORD: —they make Black— like, you know, online Blackjack or something like that, you know, legal in— you know, again, in this— in the same states with which online gambling. People simply can’t do that, you know? Can’t— can’t give, you know, all their money to sports or— you know, even— even— even problem gamblers who, like, both, are gonna, you know, give something to sports and some other things.
BOBBY: Yeah.
BRADFORD: Like, as it’s a way having a finite amount of resources and individual works. So when that happens, like, will those gambling checks be the same? I don’t think so.
BOBBY: Yeah.
BRADFORD: I really don’t. And so all— yeah. And so there is a— there is a deal-based scenario, in my opinion, where you— where all you have is scandal, but no monies.
BOBBY: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a really good point, because when you go back to, like, when the leagues were talking about these partnerships and talking about the reason that they should be excited for it, the reason that the average fans should be excited for it. They’re like, “Well, it’ll enrich— it’ll enrich your experience as a fan, right?” The vast majority of fans do not bet on sports. Like, that— are just baseball fans. They still just go to the ballpark and watch the games, right? And maybe those numbers are— are increasing, and that is a good thing in the league’s mind, in the betting company’s minds. But honestly, a lot of what happened, right, was, like, the— the career gamblers were like, “Okay, now, we’ll just bet more on sports, you know?” Because it’s a lot easier, and there are more incentives, and there are more upside opportunities for me. So it’s— much like when there was, like, the whole NFT push that MLB was going for. It’s like the people who are gonna come and buy your NFTs, it’s not like baseball fans who are like, “Now, I get an NFT.” It’s like NFT fans who are, like, “Now, it’s in baseball. Now, I’ll just put my weird, little fetish into another part of the world.” And so it’s almost like you’re, like, chasing a profit that’s tied to nothing. Again, it’s like— it’s like, tied to the theory that people want to come spend more money and— on— on sports betting. But, like, when that money starts to dry up, or, as you’re saying, Bradford, but, like, when there are other places for that money to go to, it’s not just line goes up all of the time. We saw that happened with RSNs. And RSNs are a much more essential part of the sports landscape than betting on sports. RSNs are the sports. That’s where you see the sports. That’s where almost all of the fans consume the sports, you know? And they clearly don’t give a fuck about, like, getting people to come into their stadiums, really. Much, like, they would rather just like one billionaire buys out the whole stadium every— every game, they would much rather, like, one big shark gambler spends a ton of money on the gambling website every game, than they are—
BRADFORD: Yeah.
BOBBY: —actually worried about, like diversifying their revenue streams.
BRADFORD: I think, ultimately, what we’re all saying is that there is an— such an over emphasis on short-term accumulation of money and so little proportionate regard for long-term impact and viability of like— of what— of what it means to get those earns— get to— get those— get— get that money right now.
ALEX: I mean, maybe that was your takeaway, but my takeaway was, if I want to take down betting in sports, I need to start my own campaign to legalize online poker playing, online blackjack playing.
BRADFORD: Wow.
ALEX: Like this is— this is— you just opened up a path. This is how we do it. And then we just keep doing it. We keep legalizing—
BRADFORD: Okay.
ALEX: —forms of betting.
BRADFORD: So— okay. So— so we’re all going to law school. We’re going to call lobbyists—
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BRADFORD: —you know, for— for— for the gaming industry to— to open up Blackjack, to take down Rob Manfred [43:06]
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: It’s interesting—
ALEX: You know [43:07] you know.
BRADFORD: It’s the perfect prize. I love it. It’s interesting, Bradford, that you didn’t know that I’m already a lawyer and a lobbyist. That’s what I do in my free time when I’m not doing this podcast. I lobby for the gaming industry.
BRADFORD: Wow.
BOBBY: Okay. Lesson—
BRADFORD: You are a profound wizard at so many things.
BOBBY: Lessons we’ve learned here, it’s not good. It’s not getting better, and we don’t know what’s gonna happen. Anything else on— on— on our betting scandal podcast here, Alex or Bradford? Anything else that you feel like we’ve missed? I— I— the one thing that we maybe didn’t explore in full, but like— that I think Tipping Pitches listeners, in particular, probably have, like, a lot of opinions on already, is what you mentioned, Bradford, about, like, their ability to pin this on labor. And I do think that it would turn into a sort of like, “Well, we’re trying to suspend these players, but the— but that— that pesky union is getting in the way of allowing us to suspend these players.” And that would be a whole sort of wing of discourse that, like, we would care a lot about, and largely, like fans wouldn’t really give a shit about, I think, for the most part. But that was interesting to me, and I felt like I should mention that. But aside from that, I mean, anything— I mean, like, if there’s anything else that we feel like we haven’t covered, then I’m happy to— I’m happy to hear it, but really, we just appreciate you going along with this absurd concept that we— literally concept pod that we asked you to come be a part of.
BRADFORD: No. I— I was excited that you guys were branching out into even more theoretical and out there, spooky ways of exploring and complaining about this game [44:42]
BOBBY: We ran out of all the ways that we knew how to complain about the game, so we had to literally invent new ones.
ALEX: We made our own, yeah.
BRADFORD: The [44:50] have been kind of, like, all right, despite, like, all the open stuff, you know, in this year, at least to me. I love how— as things are, like, basically going good. We have yet another clean, sort of home run milestone chase, you know, like with Judge—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BRADFORD: —and Ohtani is doing crazy things once he’s been [45:10] he no more— no— no longer has two jobs, only one. So he’s like, you know, balling out in special ways. Like, it’s— you know, it’s been great. So I love how, with a nice summer, you decided to create, like, a what if? [45:23]
BOBBY: Don’t get too comfortable.
ALEX: It’s like you don’t know us.
BRADFORD: Don’t get too comfortable, yeah. Right. I’m very— very much in the— in the Tipping Pitches ethos.
ALEX: You are a very good sport for entertaining our somewhat delirious ideas. And who knows? Maybe we’ll have you back on when this— when this all happens in six months.
BOBBY: Hey, Bradford, where can— where can people find what you’re working on? Anything exciting that you want to point people to directly?
BRADFORD: Yeah. You know, I— I kind of freelance all over at— you know, these days. Sadly, I— I still operate an active Twitter account, you know?
BOBBY: I think you mean—
BRADFORD: That is my addiction. Not— not— not gambling.
BOBBY: Sorry, wait, I think you mean X, the everything app, please, as it’s referred to by the Tipping Pitches House Style Guide.
BRADFORD: Yeah. Yeah, it’s got porn. It’s got Nazis. It’s got everything. It’s got— it’s got me. It’s got me, Bradley William Davis. No. So I’m— I’m— yeah, I’m on Twitter. When I do have big drops, and I will have some pretty— some pretty soon, that’s where you’ll— that— that’s likely where you’ll find me at this point. You know, I’m not going to plug my LinkedIn, so— so it’s gotta be Twitter, BWDBWDBWD, but I’m sure you could put that in— in the notes or whatever. It’s—
ALEX: We just wanted to make you say it out loud.
BRADFORD: That’s— that’s a mouthful to explain on the podcast. Yeah, yo. That’s— that’s where I am.
ALEX: Bradford, as always, thank you.
BRADFORD: Of course.
[theme]
BOBBY: All right. Thank you to, Bradford, Thank you to you, Alex. Man, this was exhausting. This was hard to do. There’s a reason we don’t do this all the time.
ALEX: Mostly because there’s a lot of work finding the voice actors, honestly.
BOBBY: Right. And they didn’t come cheap.
ALEX: They did not come cheap. Jesus Christ. Talk about a union that needs to be broken.
[laughter]
ALEX: I kid. No, this was— this was a lot of work. And, you know, I want to give— give you your flowers for— for not only, you know, creating the— you know, the broad strokes of this script, but also putting it together in a way that actually is coherent, in a way that—
BOBBY: That’s what I do, baby.
ALEX: —maybe most of our episodes are not.
BOBBY: You got to see the window into, like, real producer Bob.
ALEX: Yep, I’m sitting there, reading lines, and you’re like, “Do that one again. Just say this word again.”
BOBBY: Again, thank you to Bradford. I— like, it’s cool that we have friends that will come and entertain dumb shit like this. It’s cool.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It’s cool.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I feel bad that it was on his vacation, but maybe he needed, like, an hour to talk—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —hypothetically about the power— institutions of power in sports world. That’s what I might need on vacation. That’s what you might need on vacation.
ALEX: Yeah, it’s— exactly. Hey, dude, call me up.
BOBBY: No, I’m not going to be doing that.
ALEX: Okay. That said, if this scandal does—
BOBBY: Not— not because— not because of respect for you—
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: —because of respect for your partner for life.
ALEX: That’s— that’s— she will appreciate that. Yeah. That said, if this scandal does break in the next two and a half weeks, I know you’ll call me.
BOBBY: I’m playing the fucking lottery if the scandal breaks.
[laughter]
ALEX: You said I’m doing more gambling if this happens.
BOBBY: Something— something supernatural going on if that happens, frankly.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: You don’t— You don’t mess with fate. You just rat it out.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That’s what I’m told. I don’t really— I don’t know. That’s what I’m told. It’s in my bloodstream somewhere. My grandfather was a big gambler.
ALEX: Oh.
BOBBY: He used to bet on the fucking horses, and he used to play scratch-offs every day. And he won big many times. He was a lucky man.
ALEX: Wow.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: So it is in your blood?
BOBBY: Perhaps I’m being reactionary to it because I’m afraid that I’ll be too great at it, you know? I’m afraid [49:19]
ALEX: You gotta keep— you gotta keep yourself humble.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly.
ALEX: The books will never see you coming.
BOBBY: Catch them by surprise, right?
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: When they’re at their weakest.
ALEX: You walk in the door and they’re like, “Our worst nightmare. Goddammit.”
BOBBY: They throw a hood over my head, and bring me to the basement, and beat me up. “He’s just— he knows exactly how many strikeouts David Peterson is gonna get every start. How does he do it?” Thank you for listening, everybody. If you like what you heard, you want to support what we’re doing, you can go find more, patreon.com/tippingpitches. Couple different tiers gives you a few different things. You want to reach out. You have more thoughts about how scandal like this would unfold. You know, add some nuance. You work for a sports gambling company, and this— you’ve— you’ve found out that something like this has happened, and you would like to reveal it to the media anonymously, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. Or you can call and we can put your voice through a voice modulator, 785-422-5881. Thank you to Steve Sladkowski of PUP the band for original music featured in this episode. That’s just the intro, the normal intro. I— I didn’t use Steve’s music for the rest of the episode, but I’m just going to thank him at the end of every episode, because it’s cool. And we’ll be back— we’ll be back next week.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
BOBBY: Yo.
ALEX: What’s up?
BRADFORD: I love how I could walk in on you guys and you’re just, like, giggling [50:58] together. That’s— that’s like— that’s like, a deep and abiding friendship.
BOBBY: We were trying to come up with names for the players involved in the betting scandal and we were— I was like, you know, the internet is just fucking over, by the way, so, like, you can’t Google, like, “Name Generator,” because it just brings up a wheel that spins a wheel and tells me Corey Seager. I’m like— I’m not looking for the names of players who already exist. I want a random name.
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