At long last, Bobby and Alex are joined by enemy of the podcast Richard Staff to discuss his Defector feature on the shrinking of the minor leagues and the growing gap in competition between them and the majors. Afterward, of course they had to get into some shit talking and meme describing.
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Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t tipping his pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, we’re recording this— this podcast two weeks in advance. Do you have any interest in, like, shooting your shot on, like, what might be happening in two weeks? That appeal to you in any way? Juan Soto as an A?
ALEX: There you go. Yeah, this is our— this is our— our audition for cult takes exposed, right? We can get them all out now.
BOBBY: Do you have to audition for that? It was my understanding that that person scours the internet 24/7 and has a terrible life? So I don’t think that they really need auditions.
ALEX: No. Do you want to make cabinet predictions?
BOBBY: No, it sounds like he’s announced it all.
ALEX: That’s pretty much— as we were— as we were recording the interview that the listeners have actually listened. I was getting—
BOBBY: No, I’m actually— no. I’m actually the putting the kibosh on this. No, you’re not talking about the fucking cabinet positions here on the pod. No.
ALEX: No. All I was gonna say is, I’m sitting here, we’re having this lovely conversation and I’m just getting alerts that, like, one— one more— yeah, you’re right. I shouldn’t talk about it. It’s not—
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: It’s no fun.
BOBBY: It’s actually just—
ALEX: I’m just making myself depressed.
BOBBY: —totally not worth it, you know? You should be making predictions about, like, pop culture, you know? Like, will people love the Wicked movie? Is that basically our— our Citizen Kane? Like, what’s— what say you?
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: It is?
ALEX: It is.
BOBBY: In what way? Because you strike me really as someone who knows definitely— well, number one, you know a lot about Wicked, first and foremost.
ALEX: Yes. Huge Wicked fan.
BOBBY: And number two, I would say, like, the number two movie behind Wicked in terms of, like, your knowledge basis that we’re working with here is Citizen Kane.
ALEX: Citizen Kane, yeah. Well, I mean, lots of similarities, right?
BOBBY: Right. Like in the text, like in the original text, the source text.
ALEX: In— in the original text, plenty of citizens that occupy the— the City of Oz—
BOBBY: What do you think like their voter ID laws are in Oz?
ALEX: Oh, God.
BOBBY: Where do you fall on Orson Welles being an underappreciated master of the old Hollywood? How, like, the new Hollywood really left him behind and didn’t show him proper respect for the legacy that he had and also the pathways that he opened for them and their auteur director visions?
ALEX: I— it was crazy.
BOBBY: Yeah, it was.
ALEX: It was wild. It was like— it was like, “Whoa. This is old Hollywood meet new Hollywood.” And it was just like nothing was the same.
BOBBY: Right. Exactly.
ALEX: And that was crazy. And as someone who witnessed that firsthand, it was just wild.
BOBBY: I— I’ve always thought of you as being 75 years old.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Here’s some other pop culture things that happened in the last 24 hours that are gonna seem like two weeks out of date, but I haven’t had a chance to talk to you about yet. Did you see that My Chemical Romance is going back on tour?
ALEX: No, I didn’t see that, actually.
BOBBY: Yeah, bro, The Black Parade is Still Alive or something tour, I don’t know. Black Parade Forever Tour, some— some— something to that effect.
ALEX: All right.
BOBBY: It doesn’t really matter.
ALEX: All right, guys.
BOBBY: Guess where they’re playing?
ALEX: Citi Field.
BOBBY: Citizens Bank Park. Your favorite location, we could go to Xfinity Live! afterwards.
ALEX: We could. I do, unironically, love Xfinity Live! Also, many people don’t know this, Citizens Bank named after Citizen Kane.
BOBBY: I had no idea where you were going with that. Yeah, they saw Citizen Kane and they were like, “This is a story about how I should have a bank [3:46]”
ALEX: Exactly. This is a story mostly about mortgages, I think.
BOBBY: Yeah, right. Exactly. They’re also playing at the Meadowlands, so—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —I’ll be going, and I’m only opening the pod with this fact, well, one, because I just wanted to talk about with you, my friend and all of the listeners.
ALEX: Right. We haven’t talked about it.
BOBBY: And two, because now that it’s in the opening of a podcast, it’s a business expense, so I’m putting that on the card. Thank you to all the fine folks over at patreon.com/tippingpitches for funding my trip to see My Chemical Romance. It’s— it’s like— it’s like a spa weekend for me. Like, you know, like, how a CEO, which is what we are, co-CEOs here of this two-person company.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: We’re both CEOs. It’s like how— it’s like how a normal CEO would like take a trip to whatever, Norway and— and spend a weekend at a spa. No, I take a trip on New Jersey Transit to the Meadowlands and I have beer spilled on me.
ALEX: Yeah. Well, we’re doing business development there. It’s soft business development.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Right?
BOBBY: We are the business and we’re developing ourselves and our interests.
ALEX: Right. What are you doing after this pod? I am gonna go, probably, pay my student loans—
BOBBY: Oh.
ALEX: —which I can now do using the Tipping Pitches card.
BOBBY: Well, here, if you think about it, our CPA if you’re listening, you’re gonna love this one. Okay, here, check this one out. We met at college—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —and that’s how we started this pod.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: So in a way, it’s a business expense that you even have student loans.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: This wouldn’t be a business without those loans, bro.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: Cooked. Pay it off. I don’t care.
ALEX: Oh, my God.
BOBBY: You just got signed off, man.
ALEX: This man is on fire.
BOBBY: No one else is gonna pay off those student loans for you. Not Joe Biden, that’s for sure.
ALEX: That’s— that’s for sure.
BOBBY: You got this, man. Be the change you want to see in the world. Honestly, I thought— I think that most people paying for Patreon are like, “I hope Alex pays off his student loans.”
ALEX: They did call me today, actually, unironically, and they were like, “You— this is due, you know?”
BOBBY: Your loan servicer?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Oh, I set that shit—
ALEX: I don’t even know— I don’t even know who it is anymore.
BOBBY: I set that shit up auto pay. I don’t even think about that. My life— I— I try to think about money as little as possible. It’s never even more fake than ever. My money comes in, I don’t look at it. My money goes out, I don’t look at it. It’d be really easy to rob me.
ALEX: Right. You and Shohei Ohtani.
BOBBY: Except for the fact— no. See, where Shohei went wrong is he gave one person the power. I’ve given no people the power.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: I’ve given the app, the free flow of the app the power.
ALEX: Right. You’ve given the algorithm all the power. That’s good.
BOBBY: I’m actually mostly joking around, because I actually am insane about my money. Like, I have every single alert set up to, like, the maximum security level. I’m like, if $1 moves from any account to any other account, it sends me an email, a text, and a push notification from the app.
ALEX: Yeah. I swipe into the subway and it’s like, “You just spent 2.90.” I’m like, “Yeah, because the MTA raised the fares, not my fault.”
BOBBY: Well, there’s— there’s your first problem. It’s like, what are you swiping into the subway for?
ALEX: Yeah. What, just turnstile jump?
BOBBY: No, I was saying that you should be taking Alex Rodriguez’s helicopter from your apartment to work.
ALEX: Oh, got it, got it, got it.
BOBBY: Yeah. Sounds like we got a broke boy on our hands. On the subway in the— in New York? Dude, you know what kind of— didn’t you read John Rocker’s interview?
ALEX: Yeah. Hmm.
BOBBY: Well, this was a— a fun cold open that’s being sent out into the world that we don’t know anything about, you know? I love to do stuff like this. It’s always fun.
ALEX: Maybe— maybe we’ll have congestion pricing when this drops. That’s my— there’s my prediction.
BOBBY: Yo, can you explain to me, like, why congestion pricing is now back on the table? Like, what is the election result of anything to do with bringing congestion pricing back now? Were we worried— was— is it that we were worried that installing congestion pricing was gonna lose dems elections? And now that they already lost, they’re like, “Now, we have nothing to lose. We’ll just put it back.”
ALEX: I mean, unironically, yes, I think that was Kathy Hochul’s— I can’t believe we’re doing New York politics right now. That was her— partially her play.
BOBBY: Can’t you? This is what we do.
ALEX: I know. I do think that was partially the play of like, “Electorally, this might help.” And then it didn’t. And now Trump, I don’t know, can— he doesn’t want to give any money to New York, right? So—
BOBBY: Electorally, it might help to not— not—
ALEX: I mean— I mean, the— the thinking is that these— these, you know, suburban voters who sit in the middle of the aisle, maybe they swing one way, maybe the other. Oh, well, if they don’t have to pay $15 to enter Midtown, maybe they’ll vote them.
BOBBY: Swing what, where? Like, we were— were we worried about New York and New Jersey? What the fuck is this? I don’t— like, I don’t understand that at all.
ALEX: I— buddy, I’m just— I’m just telling you what I hear. I—
BOBBY: Was it— was it—
ALEX: I’m just the messenger.
BOBBY: Was it the thinking or was it the— the slide deck that McKinsey sent over to Kathy Hochul’s office about how—
ALEX: Act—
BOBBY: —she should run or should not run New York State?
ALEX: No, dude. Didn’t you hear? She was, like, sitting at a diner in Grand Central, and someone’s like, “I don’t know about this congestion pricing.” She’s like, “I agree with you. I will kill it for you.”
BOBBY: Is that really what happened?
ALEX: I— that’s what she told people, yeah.
BOBBY: Okay. Did she think that that was gonna make her sound better? That she— she was swayed by the—
ALEX: She’s— she— she goes to the diners, man.
BOBBY: Well, that she was swayed by a conversation that she overheard at the diner. Listen, speaking from experience as someone who’s yelled at diners. It was never something that was insightful. Don’t listen to any—
ALEX: Right. It was [9:12] to guide policy.
BOBBY: Right, exactly. If anything, it should guide policy in the other direction.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Most— most sensibly, it should just be ignored. You know, the rantings of someone who’s waiting on their fucking pork roll. You know, like, that’s not— that’s nonsense. That’s nonsense.
ALEX: Well, now, it’s law.
BOBBY: Not yet. I mean, it still looks like we still got a shot, you know?
ALEX: Like— yeah.
BOBBY: Congestion pricing and the Interborough Express, I’m still waiting, you know? You might fucking die in the city before you have either of those things.
ALEX: Jesus Christ.
BOBBY: And that’s the American dream. I was talking— this was like a month ago. This is, like, before the election, before whatever. And now, I was talking about how if we’re just gonna have, like, crooked politicians who suck, can we at least, like, go back to the FDR era where we had, like, crooked politicians who were, like, in bed with the mafia, but like, getting shit done [10:02]
ALEX: Oh, my God. That [10:02] yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Exactly. Like we need— we don’t need lib Joe Rogan, and it is, like the millionth time I made a lib Joe Rogan joke. We need lib Robert Moses. We need like—
ALEX: You’re talking about what’s gonna be outdated in two weeks, is the joke that’s all over Twitter today. But I— but I— it’s right.
BOBBY: It’s not a joke, dude. It’s— everybody’s talking about it.
ALEX: I mean— I know, I know, I know.
BOBBY: People in the industry are talking about it.
ALEX: I know, I know, I know.
BOBBY: And speaking of someone in the industry, people in the industry are talking about, what do podcasts mean now for politics? I’m like, “Hopefully nothing.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know? Four years from now, I don’t want to be offered a presidential candidate, I’ll tell you that. I would say no. If it’s— unless it’s Bernie Sanders—
ALEX: Speak— speak for yourself.
BOBBY: —who, later in this podcast, we will talk about, how we’ve been trying to get Bernie for a long time, and we’re gonna keep trying.
ALEX: Eric Adams, when— look, he did all this bribery with, like, church’s officials whether he—
BOBBY: Eric Adams is not gonna have time. He’s still gonna be the mayor, dude. He’s gonna be mayor still, so he’s gonna be pardoned.
ALEX: It’s— you’re actually right.
BOBBY: Yeah. Let that sink in.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: This is one of our best cold opens ever.
ALEX: So, so good. Just 15 minutes of New York City electoral politics.
BOBBY: And I haven’t said the name of the guest of this episode, which is Richard Staff.
ALEX: Nope.
BOBBY: You may know him from Staffcast. You may know him from shitposting on Mets Twitter. You may know him—
ALEX: The Mets X.
BOBBY: The fact that we’ve roll reversed on this is, like, really throwing me through a loop.
ALEX: I’m sorry, someone has to hold up the standards.
BOBBY: I’ve noticed that you’ve been back on X the everything app.
ALEX: I— I have actually, yeah.
BOBBY: That you—
ALEX: I’m tipping my toes back in.
BOBBY: I gotta tell you, I’m enjoying it.
ALEX: Yeah?
BOBBY: I’m consuming that content. What people don’t really know, because in the last few years, you know, you’ve sort of, like, been— had a well-adjusted relationship to X the everything app and Twitter—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —is that you’re one of our greatest posters. You’re one of this generation’s greatest posters that, like, dating back to when you were like, 11, you were just, like, posting about—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —Fall Out Boy. People don’t know this, but I know. I’m the keeper of the Alex secrets. I— I am the librarian of the Alex library. Like, I— I know these things. They don’t know, though, but they will know soon, because it seems like you’re back in.
ALEX: Is that a— is that a library of Alexandria joke, or was that just—
BOBBY: No, that was serendipity.
ALEX: Oh, my God. See, I mean, you know what I’m— what I’m like is I’m like a— a washed up baseball player, who’s trying to work his way back. I’m— I’m just— I’m testing the waters. Do I still got it? Maybe, we’ll see.
BOBBY: What you don’t know now is that the algorithm doesn’t reward anything good.
ALEX: No, it doesn’t.
BOBBY: I’m not sure that—
ALEX: That’s—
BOBBY: —it ever really did, but it super doesn’t now.
ALEX: Right. That’s why I’m only getting four likes.
BOBBY: I’m gonna go retweet every tweet that you’ve tweeted.
ALEX: Please— please do not do that.
BOBBY: Thank you for re-enrolling over on the sinking ship that is X the everything app. As I’ve always said, I’m never going to Bluesky. I’m never going anywhere else. I’m going down with the ship. And then if it goes fully down, you’ll just never see me post ever again. Just be doing this pod and nothing else.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And, you know, maybe like the other five pods that we have by that time. Richard Staff, we talked about—
ALEX: Oh, that’s right. We had a guest on.
BOBBY: Right. Remember Richard Staff?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: We talked about this really great piece that he wrote for Defector a while back about the growing gap between the Minor Leagues and the Major League level in terms of competition. When this came out, we had flagged it as something that we wanted to talk about. We just didn’t have a ton of time around that time period, playoffs, other stuff going on on the pod. And we had never had Rich on the pod, and so we just thought it’d be a good opportunity to bring him on, talk about that piece. And then, of course, we get into some of the— some of the more fun, loosey-goosey, silly stuff later in the episode that Rich has come to be known for. We talk a lot about Staffcast and his co-hosts over on that show, which, if you don’t know if you— if you’re— if you aren’t a listener of that show, he hosts that with Tom Hackimer and friends of the pod, Trevor Hildenberger And Sean Doolittle. The only reason I say that Tom’s on a friend of the pod is because we realized like— we actually never have had him on, even though we’ve sort of, like, all in the same online circles. But it’s a good show, I recommend it. And yeah, we had a good conversation with Rich. We are banking this episode a couple weeks in advance because I have some travel coming up, and then there’s the Thanksgiving holiday that’s going to throw a wrench in our sort of normal recording plans. So if anything has happened in the last couple weeks in the baseball world that is not covered on this episode, I guess really the last week in the last week in the baseball world, because we’ll have a normal episode the week before this. If anything’s happened in the last week in the baseball world, I apologize, if that thing is like, massive. Like, let’s say, Juan Soto signs with the Guardians. I’ll put a little disclaimer at the top of this show. But outside of that, I hope that you enjoy this banked episode with Richard Staff. Before we go to that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: Alex, we’re doing something that I swear we would never do. We— we’re— we’ve invited our enemy, Richard Staff, onto the podcast.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: What— what have we done? What have we wrought on the world, allowing Richard Staff to grace the airways of Tipping Pitches? Richard, hello, hi. How are you? How’s it going?
RICHARD: It’s great. The Berlin Wall has fallen. Cats and dogs, they’re in a loving embrace, and I am here on Tipping Pitches.
ALEX: I was ready to be committed to the bit and only continue to have on your two co-hosts and— and— and leave you out of it, but Bobby convinced me otherwise, so—
RICHARD: Joke’s on you. They have jobs and they’re busy.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Yeah, it’s been hard to book Sean Doolittle since he became the most important pitching coach in Major League Baseball.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: He’s kind of a busy guy. I think you’ve probably run into that issue yourself, even though he’s your co-host.
RICHARD: Oh, the— the poor guy. We record a podcast. We’re done at, like, 11:00. He has a day game the next day. I’m like, “All right, you got to get to bed early.” He’s like, “No, I have four hours of pirate statistics to go over.”
ALEX: Oh, God.
BOBBY: Just crunch and tape. You know, he’s like back— back at the bottom of the ladder, just grinding it out. That— that brings me to my first question for you, Rich. How are you able to swindle your much more famous and successful co-hosts into allowing you to name the podcast, Staffcast, after yourself?
RICHARD: Listen, you cannot tell me that is not the greatest achievement in humor. The fact that I’m on a podcast with three professional baseball players, two of them were in the Mets organization. One has a World Series ring.
BOBBY: Sure does.
RICHARD: No. It’s named after the E-clown who gathered them.
BOBBY: You’re basically like the Scott Boras in this situation, like you swindled them. You got the deal that you wanted.
RICHARD: Absolutely.
BOBBY: And you wouldn’t back down from it. You’re like Scott Boras pre the fact that he’s washed now.
RICHARD: I am the team owner who gets handed the trophy first. I did none of the work.
BOBBY: Rich, you— you— you host Staffcast, you shitpost all over X the everything app, formerly Twitter. But you also contribute to one of our favorite websites, defector.com. You’ve written a number of good pieces there. The piece that brought you here, specifically, was the one that you wrote about the gap— the growing gap between the Minors and the Majors, which is a great piece that I loved when it came out. And we just had a lot going on in the baseball world and on the pod when it came out, but we had flagged it, something that we wanted to get into, and we had a little bit more time to have you on and talk more about it. I guess the first question that I have for you about that piece is, why now? Like, what— what was the thing? What was the impetus that brought it up and— and made you want to kind of go long on Defector about this specific issue in the middle of, an otherwise, like, really exciting Mets season, in the middle of, like, the MLB playoffs coming up? Like, what was the thing that really put this on the foreground of your radar?
RICHARD: Actually, this is technically Staffcast-related. My third co-host, the newest one, Tom Hackimer, was the year before this, in 2023, was coming back from Tommy John surgery, and he was with the Long Island Ducks. And this year, he did all the showcases before the season and sent out his— his TrackMan data and everything. And basically every Major League team that looked at it, said, “This is— these are insane numbers. We’ll call you if you release someone.” And it’s like, well, he also never wanted a story written about him, so— so I said, “Great news. I’m writing a story that’s about you.” And basically, knowing that one person in my orbit, if this is happening to one person, God knows how many out there that aren’t doing podcasts with me are experiencing this, and it’s more than you’d think. And I thought maybe I’d have a harder time wrangling guys for it. And then I just looked at Minor League systems last year compared to this year and said, “Oh, that’s— it’s a lot of guys not there anymore.”
ALEX: It— so the— so the article, I— for those who haven’t read it yet and— and we’ll link to it in the description, right? But it— it is focused on—
BOBBY: I would say as a point of order, you should probably pause and go give it a quick— quick read [19:30]
ALEX: You should give it a read, at least.
BOBBY: Link in the description.
ALEX: Right. But it— but it looks at the— sort of the primarily the cutting of roster sizes, right? Across the— the Minor Leagues putting— putting caps on how many players teams are allowed to employ, and sort of what the fallout of that looks like. And— and then there has been, you know, fall out to a certain extent, and you sort of pull on some of these threads throughout the article. But what was it, like, sort of finding the folks to talk about this? I mean, was there any hesitance among players to say, “Yeah, I— like, I— I— I see what they’re doing, but I still have a chance to make it back in that league. I don’t— I don’t want to push my luck or anything like that.”? Or were folks basically ready and willing to sort of go on the record about how, “Yeah, this is— this is the business move that they’ve made, and this is how it’s impacted me.”?
RICHARD: Out of all the people I reached, only one of them, for good reason, didn’t talk to me about— I got in contact with Brett Phillips before he converted to a pitcher for the Yankees.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: And I told him the whole idea, and he more or less said like, “There’s a pretty good reason why I’m not in affiliated baseball right now.” But everyone else I contacted, more or less from the jump, I introduced myself, I said, “Here’s the idea.” And they said, “I’m completely in on it. Whenever you want. Let’s— let’s do this.” Because I guess there was this feeling where if you think you have something left, even if some weirdo like me calls you, you’re going to tell them like, “Yeah, you got a point. I have something left here.”
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: Right?
BOBBY: The changes that were made to the Minor Leagues, so previously, there was no cap on how many players could be on a roster across all the different levels of the Minor Leagues. MLB— MLB as part of their cost-cutting measures, but as part of— and I want to get into this a little bit more later, but as part of their kind of attempt to regain some of the control that they have historically had in the Minor Leagues, instituted a 185-player cap, and then after the signing of the CBA, that number dropped down to 165. You have a lot of really great quotes in here from players about how it’s affected their experience. You have quotes in here from people on the player— on the baseball analysis side of the world, like, you know, I guess, friend of the show, even though he’s never been on it, like social circle. Online circle friend of the show, Jarrett Seidler, talking about how this doesn’t make a ton of sense from, like, a pure player development perspective. So I guess my question, Rich is, like, after having spent so much time with this, talking to so many people that it’s affected, or who have instituted these changes, or have been a part of these changes, like why? Like, what is— what is really, like, the goal of this and— and what is the animating force behind teams wanting to functionally make Triple-A, like, 30% worse? You may be surprised to hear me say this, but mostly greed. It’s one of those things where, “Well, you know, sir, we— we could save five cents per quarter if we make everyone eat shit.” And it’s like, “Well, you know, I would love a nice nickel.” It’s— it’s all very grim, and everyone involved, more or less, knows that it’s not helping anyone on any level do anything. And a part of it, I think I brought up a few times, I don’t know if I mentioned it in the piece, was before they had any of these hard limits, teams like the Dodgers would float around 200 something players in their organization, and let’s say the less financially-minded ones were hovering around 180 or so.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: And it really stuck in their craw that because the Dodgers wanted to have another 20 and take flyers on them that they were able to. So they more or less said, “If— if you want to be better than us, guess what? We’re— you’re coming down to our level now.” In that sense, it worked. They’re all at the same limit, but I don’t think it worked for anyone else on the chain.
ALEX: It removes one of the elements of the Minor Leagues that I have always found so endearing, right? Which is this— the— the vast array of developmental practices and approaches that teams are taking to building this pipeline of— of players basically, right? How one team develops their group of players may look radically different from another teams. And it feels— I— I mean, it is a part of MLB’s larger goal of creating this homogenized development pipeline, right? But I do think you lose something tangible there as a— as a fan, certainly as a— as a player. But this approach also just seems counterintuitive for a sport that relies on development to fuel this next generation. And this comes up in your piece, this gap between the Triple-A— between Triple-A and the Major Leagues that— that is growing as a result of this. I mean, do you think it’s sustainable, like this sort of trimming of the fat that they’re doing of the Minor Leagues? Are we gonna reach a tipping point soon where the league all of a sudden says, “Whoa. We don’t have enough good players to like— to fill our— our rosters.”? I mean, what— what in your eyes is sort of the kind of medium term fallout of this sort of thing?
RICHARD: I think the fact that it went through this season and, of course, things were worse, and like, Jackson Holliday’s and those sorts were dreadful. But I think the fact that they got through one full season and no one really got entirely swamped, they figure, “We could do it once. We could just keep pushing,” and barring any insane catastrophe of either players getting hurt or players being awful. I think they’re just going to stick with this permanently. If anything, they’ll probably end up doing more cuts. Like I think the team source in the story said what they’re going to do next to say, “Hey, wait a minute. How come in the Dominican leagues, there isn’t a cap on that, too?” And I feel, eventually, at some point, you’re going to pull one brick too many out of the foundation. But for now, it’s just sort of pressing ahead and waiting for something to break.
BOBBY: I think it will come as no surprise to listeners of this podcast that that’s somewhat of a theme of the last decade of baseball is optima— optimization, above all else. The source that you’re referring to in the kicker of the piece is talking about how the efficiency— says, quote, “the efficiency” aspect starts from the top. You’re not going to change the pursuit of profits. I don’t ne— I don’t think you’ve necessarily seen the last of this kind of stuff. I mean, in an ideal world, like if they were just molding this out of clay from the beginning, and they didn’t have the entire history of the Brooklyn Dodgers and Branch— Branch Rickey reforming the Minor League system to be a real, true player development pipeline that happened decades and decades and decades ago. I think what you would see is, ideally, MLB teams would just put— put guys in a— in a lab in front of a TrackMan, and they would never even exhibit Minor League games at all. And the closer that they can get to that, the better for them as a company, the more control of an environment for them as a company, the less likely it is for them to have to spend money on things that they don’t want to have to spend money on, for prospects to fail in ways that they weren’t expecting, like getting injured in a random Minor League freak accident or whatever it might be. I just think, like— I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this just, like, the death of the soul of the game, you know? Like to make it completely all homogenized. Like to me, it misunderstands the point of Minor League baseball entirely, where it’s like this is supposed to be the flip side of the coin that is Major League Baseball. We already have all this uniformity across the 30 Major League teams. Actually, something interesting was going on in Minor League baseball when we had the Dodgers trying out 200 players, and we had other teams just punting on it and deciding that this wasn’t how they were going to develop their next superstar, or whatever it might be. That was interesting to me. Like that— that is competition. This is anti-competitive behavior from the league side. And I guess we shouldn’t be surprised by that, because the whole— like the entire business model of the league is anti-trust exemption.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Like, this is what we were hoping for. I guess it just never fails— and Jarrett points this out too. Like, it never fails to surprise me that they actually do things to hamstring themselves along the way. And this seems like one of those things, right?
RICHARD: It seems easy that the basis of baseball is we should make players better.
BOBBY: Yes.
RICHARD: And being confronted with a decision where it’s like, “Sir, you could make players worse for a minor profit.” You’re like, “Oh, yeah, of course, we’ll do that. I would love to have Minor Leaguers get thrown into the Mexican league for no reason.”
ALEX: Yeah. I love my support just being at the whims of, like, neoliberal economic practices. I’m like, “That’s sick. Yeah, get all the consulting firms in here. You know, why is it just McKinsey that— that— that gets to be the belle of the ball?” Can— I can’t name another consulting firm. I’m not gonna lie.
BOBBY: Oh, dude, you’re— you’re— that’s amateur hour.
ALEX: I— it is amateur hour, yeah.
BOBBY: You can’t name another consulting firm. Come on.
RICHARD: Someone take away this guy’s woke card.
BOBBY: This guy’s not a real leftist. You don’t know about Deloitte, bro. You don’t know about Bane. Come on, read the fucking McKinsey book.
RICHARD: Get your ass back to brunch.
BOBBY: You just received a mandatory five-year sentence in DC where you have to live on—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —down there on fucking K Street or whatever, and you have to have brunch with all these people and learn about what they do for work.
ALEX: I’m down. I’ll take that bullet for the pod.
BOBBY: You said the word neoliberal economic— the words neoliberal economic views and I’m just, like, shuttered from all the posts that I’ve seen for the last week.
ALEX: Oh, God.
BOBBY: Like, everybody really arguing— Rich, here on the— with— with the bullhorn that is Tipping Pitches, would you do— would you like to weigh in on the rumors that you’re next in line to be liberal Joe Rogan?
RICHARD: I want to assure you that I will not be— well, you know what? Maybe I will be. It seems pretty profitable. I’m ready to sell my soul. Me and John Rocker are taking over.
ALEX: I— one of the interesting elements of your article was kind of this— this— the way— the— the ripple effects that this decision has had on, like, independent leagues. And I was kind of curious, your perspective on how this changes, I guess, the balance of power between, say, the independent leagues and, like, the Minor Leagues affiliated ball, because you do have this sort of glut of the quad A guys, right? The fringe guys who teams all of a sudden don’t feel it’s worth keeping around, and then they find their way to international leagues, they find their way to independent leagues. I mean, do you see independent leagues becoming more competitive with, say, like MLB-affiliated miners or being— almost turning into another development path in the way that maybe it— it hasn’t in— in recent years. R
RICHARD: Yeah. One thing I think I mentioned— or one question I asked of everyone I talked to is, do you think this is going to become a quasi-League of sorts?
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: And a lot of them said it is really a lot more viable. And one thing that the independent teams really like is if a Major League team signs one of their players, they have to pay a fee—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: —to get them so it would incentivize more these teams, like the Long Island Ducks, to take more shots on guys like Jackie Bradley, Jr. was with the Long Island Ducks. He had a nice couple weeks. All of a sudden, you’re getting a six-figure check from Steve Cohen just for letting Jackie Bradley hang out for a little while. So I think it will be viable, mostly because there’s no real other choice. Like Robert Stock has been in, I think, Korea, and then Mexico, and the Dominican Winter League, and God knows where it’ll be next year. But it’s either that or nothing, really.
BOBBY: So before— before I present to you my— my, like, grander theory about why MLB is [32:36] in continuing down this path, even though it seems like it’s against their best interests. I wanted to talk a little bit about how you think the Minor League union— unionization effort affected this trend, because it didn’t create it, because this was going on before the union existed and before it became public, certainly. But it certainly does play a role in the macro and micro-economic financial calculations that teams are making, about how much the miners cost in total and how they should be allocating those funds.
RICHARD: Yeah. One thing that got mentioned was that more or less these limits were the concession made by the players’ side and the league sort of thinking, “Well— well, we’ll give you good beds and food, and not pay you five cents, but there has to be less of you.” And it’s one of those things where every single game the Minor League Union made is— it’s great for them in that they’re not really living in early 1900s New York City tenement houses anymore, stacked on top of each other, at least hopefully. But there had to be something to weigh it out, and knowing baseball as it is, it wasn’t going to be, “Well, here’s something that benefits us.” It was just going to be, “Here’s how we save money. We don’t want to do anything that is in us recouping some of this money.” And the players I spoke to on the outside of affiliated baseball, they said every game they made is great. It’s just a shame that Major League Baseball needed this as a part of it. And I guess that’s more or less a story of everything baseball does, where here’s something cool that happened, and you think it’s like, “Well, it’s a shame that they needed to do this to make it happen.”
BOBBY: Yeah. I guess, like, I— I just can’t square that, though, because it’s like 30 Minor League players cost, what, like $1.2 million a year to a team. Like— because they’re already paying for the travel, they’re already paying for the housing units, you know? They’re already— like, to add 30 more players into that, and they make whatever, like somewhere between— whatever the salary minimums are now, like, between $30,000 and $65,000 a year. Like, it’s not like all of those 30 extra players that you would be adding that are on the fringes of the roster are commanding million dollar bonuses because those guys are already getting drafted, and those guys are still getting their money. Like, I just don’t— this is— this is like— you know, this is, like, not even Kirby Yates money that we’re talking about here. I just— I don’t— I don’t get it, really.
RICHARD: Yeah, it’s taken me— I think I started writing this piece in, like, last June. It has taken me these five months to internalize the fact that all these owners are willing to sink the entire ship for, like, the Adam Ottavino buyout, and they’re fine with it.
BOBBY: The Adam Ottavino buyout that never happened, brother, because he stuck it out this whole season.
RICHARD: Hell yeah, he did.
ALEX: I— one— one other thing that was kind of coming up for me as I was reading this, and— and I don’t even really have a question around this. It’s sort of just an idea that was, like, percolating a little bit. Was like how fans engage with Minor League teams, right? And this is something we talked a lot about with the contraction of the Minor Leagues and— and just, you know, condemning swaths of Minor League teams to the dustbin of history. But there’s also the elements of the fact that fans are going to see these players. Now, you may not know the names of every single person on this roster, but there might be the veteran guy who’s been in Triple-A for a few years, and he’s the veteran presence in the clubhouse or whatever, and fan favorite and whatnot. And— and I think it allowed for fans to maybe just develop a different relationship with a lot of these players, and with this sort of ruthless efficiency. You’re basically trying to move these players through the pipeline as fast as possible, right? And if they stall or— or they get their cup of coffee and they completely whiff, like all of a sudden, their livelihood is, you know, at— at risk. And I think that from a fan’s perspective, especially a fan who lives in a Minor League town or something like that, this pursuit of efficiency is not necessarily conducive to, like, your experience, especially your experience is centered around, like, “It’s a small team. It’s a family-run Minor League club, you know? And we know the players and they come and hang after the game,” or whatever. It’s like, “No, that guy is— is trying to not go 0-4 tomorrow, so he doesn’t strike out. You know what I mean? Like, I— I— was this something that you were thinking about it all when— when writing this? This is my way of parlaying my thought into a question, was— were you also thinking about this?
RICHARD: That was pretty good.
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: Actually, one—
BOBBY: Years of practice, brother, years of practice of just doing bad interviews and forcing our own thoughts into the question, you know?
RICHARD: And then just ending with thoughts?
ALEX: Right. Right. What do you think?
BOBBY: Respond now.
RICHARD: But one of the players I spoke to for this story, Ben Brammer, who, by the way, is one of the nicest people I’ve ever met. He was one of the 2020 guys that I wrote about in a different story last year. And one thing he mentioned was coming up through the national system, he’d have people in Harrisburg, and then he’d have people just every step of the way that he’d recognize, who would come on trips, so they’d be kids or just adults in the area, if he went up and down. And one thing he regretted was that in 2020, there wasn’t that opportunity for those people to see him play in the Majors.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: And now that he— he’s been bouncing around. He was in Mexico, he was in the independent leagues. He went to Taiwan this year. The fact that he is making this comeback, and there might not be this space for him to be in Triple-A with Washington, or visit Triple-A with whatever other team. If he’s with the Twins or something, he doesn’t have that opportunity to go back and see that fan in Rochester or whatever, in Harrisburg. And there’s something very grim about the fact that that connection has been severed, and there’s really no interest in it existing at all from the team side.
BOBBY: Yeah. One thing that I couldn’t get out of my head while I was reading the part that I— the part of your article that I think you’re really— really right to focus on and— and hone in on, and— and a lot of players mentioned, too, that there are just things that, like, veterans know that young players don’t, you know? Like there are elements of player development that are also personal development, that are also just, like, broader workplace development, things that you have to learn from a person who’s been there doing it before, because they’ve come across this problem. And sometimes that can be, like, how do you work account? But other times, it can just be like, how do you comport yourself in a professional environment, and how do you deal with the stressors that are unique to this workplace? And I just think like to borrow a sort of, like, on— online phrasing of this concept, like, we’re losing the sacred texts in Minor League baseball, We’re losing the Crash Davis figure in Minor League Baseball in search of, like, an optimization that will save owners. Like, not even a rounding error. Like an amount of money that they would spend, like, changing hot dog vendors, because they just don’t like the people who run this vendor anymore, you know? And they, like, want to buy out the contract or whatever. Like, this is a— such an insignificant amount of money for things that, I think, like, if there are any places left in society that we should value, like, intangibles, they’re sports, right? And then— but we just like— we’re not in an era where baseball is being run that way at all. We’re— we’re in an era where baseball is being run. I mean, we’ve talked about it on the pod for a while at the Major League level, but it’s— it’s even more true on the Minor League level, is being run like a spreadsheet, you know?
RICHARD: Yeah. I— I tried not to sound too much like John Smoltz, just from my own personal well-being in doing this and thinking about veteran players. But every single player I spoke to, even if I didn’t mention it in the story and even people I didn’t talk to specifically for the story, there’s always minimum one veteran that they talk about on their first day in the Majors or in the Minors who showed them like, “Here’s what happens.” Like Sean Doolittle, that guy, if you’ve— I think he works with the Nationals now. But when he came up with the Oakland A’s, he was this freaked out kid who was dressed like a— like a Mormon door knocker. And it was Brian Fuentes in his age 37 season or whatever, who was the one that I told him, like, “Come sit in the back of the plane. We’re gonna hang out. You’re gonna be my plane buddy. Here, come play cards. Let’s talk.”
BOBBY: I just want to let everyone know that— that the name Brian Fuentes, that got a stern nod out of Alex here on the pod.
ALEX: It did, it did.
BOBBY: He’s like, “Yeah, there’s a guy.”
ALEX: I’m like, “Yeah, that’s [42:21].”
BOBBY: There’s an Oakland A.
RICHARD: We love appreciating guys.
ALEX: We do, we do.
RICHARD: Just mumbling so true Rocktober. But the fact that— even with, like, what we just did here, hearing the name Brian Fuentes and saying, “Oh, hell yeah, a guy.”
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: The fact that now—
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: —you’re not going to have the Brian Fuentes guys for the players, but more importantly, for the freaks like us who love remembering them.
BOBBY: Yeah. I mean, like these people— Brian Fuentes, like, at the Major League level or whatever, or like, you know, you— you name Delino DeShields, Jr. at the Minor League level. This is a guy who’s now in indie ball because there’s no space for him. It’s that kind of player who, like, had some time in the Majors, didn’t quite live up to the prospect type, bounced around in Minor League systems, and is now out because he was on the fringes of being able to make it back to the Majors as a useful player to— to a major league team. But these are the people who are, like, repositories of baseball knowledge, so we’re passing it along. Like, yes, you can say that— that’s also true of coaches and— and hitting coaches and whatnot, but like, they’re— they’re trying their best to get players out of those roles, too. You know, like they’re trying—
RICHARD: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —to get people who have Harvard degrees into those roles as well, so that they can develop players to be the exact kind of cookie cutter, robotic efficiency machines that they would like, because that is, like, their most favorable outcome in terms of money well spent. And I just— I find that— I find that incredibly bleak, you know? Like, even if I think about how to apply that to, like, the real world, like my— my own life, you know, like, it would be a real bummer if I had never had anybody who, like, taught me how to edit a pod when I got to a certain— you know, like, when I got to my job or was like, “Here’s what to do if this goes wrong in this way, and here’s who you can ask for help, and here’s how you can handle this situation.” Just like a— a steady set of hands who’s, like, been there before and— and done this. That’s, like, the level—
ALEX: The stuff that’s not in the employee handbook.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Right? That’s like— is not formalized, but it’s— you— you get with just existing and— and being a worker.
BOBBY: Like figuring it out on— along the way has its own benefits as well. Like, when you have to sort of, like, sink or swim, that asks a lot of you as a person, but you shouldn’t have to feel like you’re sinking or swimming all of the time. Like— like the fact that Jackson Holliday gets up to the Major League level, and he’s like, “Oh, fuck, I’m completely over match now, because what I just thought I was doing in preparing for getting here was a lie.” Like, that’s bad for our game, I think, in an existential long-term sense.
RICHARD: If that could happen to literally Matt Holiday’s son, someone—
BOBBY: Exactly.
RICHARD: —who spent— instead of being in pre K, he was running on the field at Coors Field. And if he could get promoted and say, “What the hell am I doing?” What chance do the normal people have?
BOBBY: Exactly like us mere mortals—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —like, we have no shot, dude.
RICHARD: Yeah. And one thing you mentioned about, like, having these veteran players and the sort of unspoken things you learn, like Delino DeShields, beyond what I’m going to say, just look at his name, like, literally, Delino DeShields’ son, and he’s in— I think he was with the Charleston Dirty Birds. And one thing he would mention is that there were some fast players on the team, and he’d give them base running tips, but— and I don’t think I said in the story, but they run, like, when the team’s big slugger was up. And he had to pull him aside and give them the talk that, like, Adrian Beltre and Prince Fielder told him, like, “It’s great you’re fast. Don’t run while I’m at-bat. I don’t like seeing you do that.” And the fact that he’s giving that knowledge to someone in Charleston in the Atlantic League, instead of in the Minor Leagues or bouncing in a sort of Terrance Gore role, it feels like we’re all really missing out on something.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, I just— I think of, like, isolation too, in the Minor Leagues, right? It’s already a relatively isolating experience, but this sort of sink or swim mentality does really pit players against each other. And I know they’re all pitted against each other because they’re all trying to make it to the Major Leagues or whatever, but when you sort of remove that safety net of, “Yeah, if you don’t hack it at the Major Leagues, you’ll have a spot with us back here, just in case we need you for an injury or whatever.” And now all of a sudden, you’re looking around and saying, “Hey, which one of us is getting cut when the draft comes up next summer?” And I just can’t imagine that, like, from a mental, like, preparedness perspective, that that is encouraging or makes you feel like any better. Like, you want to play better, sure, but— but it doesn’t necessarily inspire much confidence in— in, I don’t know, camaraderie or anything like that.
RICHARD: Yeah. You used to be fighting for Major League jobs, and there was this mutual understanding, like, yeah]. every team has 25 of these. Like, it’s very small, it’s unlikely we even get there. Now, you pull it back and it’s like, we’re not going to competing for those. We’re competing to be in Double-A with the Mets.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: “And if I don’t go 3-4 tonight, I go 0-4, and you get two doubles.” It’s not like, “Oh, you’re going to get promoted over me.” “No, I’m going home.”
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: “I’m going to be playing in Taiwan.”
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: “If I don’t do [47:42]”
BOBBY: I’m collecting unemployment, yeah.
RICHARD: Yeah.
BOBBY: It reminds me of, like, competing over an internship that’s unpaid. You know, like— like, 100 applications for an internship at a— at a company that everybody wants to work for. It’s like paying minimum wage. It’s like this is fucking absurd, guys. Like, we can afford to do better. Like, we actually have better options here, and we’re just, like, what, not doing them? Or, like, how people will, like, put— go into a bidding war for, like, an apartment to rent in New York City. It’s like you know how—
ALEX: Like, you’ve already lost. You’ve already lost.
BOBBY: You know how fucked this is already that we’re paying this much to rent to begin with and now, we’re competing against each other for these tiny, little scraps here. Like, let alone giving up the idea of making the Majors, giving up the idea of buying a home. Like, we’re just trying to get an apartment, you know.
RICHARD: We’re fighting over the cold hot dogs at this point.
BOBBY: Yeah, dude. And it’s like— I guess like that— that brings me kind of to what I was talking about earlier, with, like, my grander theory about why this is still a compelling business model for Major League teams, the 30 Major League owners and their co-owners and all that other stuff is just like, what they are craving, above all things, is making it hard enough on the individual person to, like, maintain their level of control over this system that they’ve always had. And there have been things that have happened in the last 10 years, some of those— most of those are their own fault that have made it so that the miners have gotten, like, a little bit better for individual people. And to me, like this is like a— a— a qualitative and in some ways, quantitative way of saying, “Hey, we still have control over you. You know, we still have—”
RICHARD: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: “—this level of— we still instill fear in you. We still want you to feel anxious and stressed.” And, like, you’re— like, you know, the next game is not guaranteed, because that is— that is our philosophy and how we can control and, like, the management-worker dynamic that we have wanted to maintain here for a very long time. That’s the philosophy here. Don’t get comfortable. And it’s always been that way, and it’s always been confounding, but I guess that’s the thing that, like, explains it to me. Does that make sense to you, Rich?
RICHARD: Yeah. One thing that— in talking Michael Hermosillo mentioned it was that the way things are squeezed and squished now is that there’s no amount of prestige that gets you out of it. Like being named Delino DeShields, Jr. doesn’t get you a job anymore. Being Kyle Lewis, rookie of the year four years ago, that doesn’t get you a roster spot. It’s very— you’re just ground down to numbers, and there’s no sense of— like you said, there’s no safety net. There’s nothing really to protect you, and you realize you’re more or less just at the whims of whatever weird, wet billionaire is standing over you. And I keep saying it, but it’s all just very grim. Like, just the idea that you— it’s bad enough being in the Minor Leagues— playing Minor League Baseball. You’re riding in non-air conditioned busses to Frog balls Arkansas. But now you also have to think, “I’m not even safe in Single-A anymore.”
ALEX: I mean, it— it is so reflective of every other element of our society, right? I mean, we’re like—
BOBBY: I mean, yeah.
ALEX: —we’re like— I’ll— I’ll absolutely trade on the long-term health of my sport in favor of slight profit gains now.
RICHARD: Yeah, yeah. It doesn’t matter.
BOBBY: Yeah, because, like, I’m not going to be alive or I’m not going to be the person who has to make these decisions in 20 years.
ALEX: Right, exactly. Yeah, baby drill, baby drill. What’s it to me? You know?
RICHARD: It’s fine. I’ll eat the micro plastics. It’s okay.
BOBBY: If it’s not the micro plastics, it’s going to be something else, right? Like, if it’s not the total collapse of the Minor League player development system, it’ll be, I don’t know, like some communist regime taking over the United States and nationalizing baseball anyway. So I might as well reap these rewards while I still have it.
RICHARD: It’ll be chairman Doolittle stomping his way over Tropicana Field.
BOBBY: You were talking about Sean and you were talking about his big leaguer, like, when he got to that level, and you’re just talking about how anxious he must have been when he got there. And I was just thinking the whole time like, “Yeah, and on top of that, he only knew how to throw one pitch. Just think about what he had to go into the locker room thinking.”
RICHARD: Yeah. It is so funny that every time someone— like we have a guest on the podcast and they talk to him more, even people who aren’t on the podcast and he said people who I didn’t even hear say it, they come up to him, they’re like, “Hey, congrats on the strategist job. Like, what do you tell them? Throw fastballs up?” And every time, he has to pretend, like, “Yes, good— good one, sir.”
ALEX: Right.
RICHARD: “Yeah, you got me.”
BOBBY: Right, exactly. No wonder they won the fucking 2019 World Series. Everyone knew what pitch he was throwing anyway. It’s like the Astros couldn’t cheat against him. They were foiled.
RICHARD: Yeah, the trash can does nothing when— when all you know is heater up.
ALEX: The new market inefficiency is just tipping your pitches, right?
BOBBY: Right. Yeah.
ALEX: Say— say, “Fuck you. Fastball up, hit it.”
RICHARD: “Oh, couldn’t catch up to that. Guess what? Fastball up, here it comes.”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And the occasional fastball low and away. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Staffcast and just how it’s been going for you, and why you wanted to try— try your hand here in this grind, similar to the Minor League Baseball world and— and this, you know, lefty baseball podcaster grind. What was the— what was the inciting event for you?
RICHARD: It’s an incredibly sick and disgusting sphere of the baseball world. And as someone who loves rolling around in that mud, I thought, “Why am I not in there?” But more than that, I had a lot of people yelling at me, especially when Elon Musk took over X, the everything app, blaze your glory in that more people were leaving there, and I started using it less. And they’re like, “Hey, you should do something else. Like, if you’re not going to be tweeting, I don’t know, do something.” And I resisted for long enough, and at a certain point, I’m like, “All right, I guess I’ll do this.” And initially, when I first planned it, it was just going to be me and Trevor Hildenberger and Sean was going to be our first guest. And he ended up deciding he didn’t want to work anymore, shortly after that. And I said, “You want to—”
ALEX: [54:09]
RICHARD: Yeah. “You want to be a co-host? You’re on the leftist commune.” And he agreed to it. And it really is just a— a nice side project for us where it’s not— I like to believe it’s not really like anything else. Like no one else is asking Jeff Passan if he would punch a child in the base if it came down to it. And no one else is letting 4talk about how much he hates New Jersey geese for— and turkeys for 10 minutes. And, I don’t know, it’s weird and I think it’s a nice corner I’ve carved out for myself by attaching my name to more talented people.
ALEX: Well, it must— I mean, it must have felt like promotion of the Major Leagues for a guy like Sean, right? I mean, it’s like, now— now you’re in the big time.
RICHARD: Yeah.
ALEX: I mean, yeah, Minor League Baseball, Major League Baseball Podcaster. I think that’s kind of the— the pecking order, right?
RICHARD: Oh, were you warming up to come in to get the last out of game seven of the World Series? That’s nothing. All right? We’re going to be talking to [55:15] today about Soto.
ALEX: Yeah. Listen carefully and then ask a follow-up question. Try to—
RICHARD: Right.
ALEX: Try to emphasize.
BOBBY: Yeah. Exactly yeah. “Try to focus in on what the person is saying, motherfucker. Pay attention to the close details, and then ask an insightful question. Not so easy when there’s awkward silence in there, huh?”
RICHARD: “No fastballs up here, bitch. Get talking. Ask David Roth about his favorite guy.”
BOBBY: I think that— and this is— this is obviously something that you guys acknowledge and talk about a lot on the pod, and— and even did a whole episode about which, honestly, I really have to commend you on this episode. It’s one of my favorite pod episodes that I’ve listened to all year. Just the episode about, like, what— what it’s like to be a reliever, like, the emotional toll that it takes to be a reliever. And I think it’s probably not lost on you and your co-hosts, like the type of person who thinks about the world and the game in this way often ends up as a reliever, because it’s— you’re prone to, like, having more time to think about these things as you’re just, like, sitting out in the bullpen. And you are disposable in the context of the baseball world, even more disposable than your average player. What— I guess, what is it like to be just like in the middle of a bunch of relievers all of the time?
RICHARD: It’s so weird. I— I never got to fulfill my dream of being in the Majors or anything. But at certain points, I really do feel like I’m sitting in a bullpen during a 12-1 game.
BOBBY: You’re like the bullpen catcher of podcasters.
RICHARD: I am— I am— that is everything I’ve ever wanted to hear about myself. Yeah, it’s— I think the first episode of the podcast, it was —Yusei Kikuchi said, like, “Oh, I didn’t sleep 12 hour, so I was— I was thrown off.” And Hilden and Sean were like, “You pussy. Like, I’m so amped up after a game. I come in at 11 o’clock before we had the pitch clock. I’m not going to sleep ’till 4:00. We got a day game tomorrow. I’m a middle reliever. I’m pitching again.” And—
ALEX: Yeah, that— that’s starter privilege right there.
RICHARD: Yeah. And you look at it in relievers, because so many of the baseball players who are— excluding John Rocker, the ones who don’t have some sort of brain worm attached to them, like Collin McHugh, Trevor May, my three co-hosts, they’re relievers. They— in being the most irregular people, they end up being the most normal in general society.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
RICHARD: Where they’re just people fueled by like energy drinks and social anxiety and occasional depression. And it makes for a very good personality, because, yeah, they’re like us, except they could throw fastballs by Mike Trout. And—
BOBBY: Well, this— this is why— again, this is why it’s shocking to me that Spencer Strider is just one of the best starters in baseball, because that guy should be a fucking reliever based on the way—
RICHARD: Yeah.
BOBBY: —that he acts and the things that he likes.
RICHARD: He should be asleep for the first five innings of the game. Like you’re not allowed to rank albums and then also get the ball—
BOBBY: That’s what I’m saying.
RICHARD: —to start the game.
ALEX: Absolutely. Yeah.
BOBBY: It’s like he drank some type of magic Elixir that made him good at all the things. I just don’t trust it. Like, what’s going on there, man?
RICHARD: It’s the—
ALEX: He’s the exception that proves the rule. It’s why— that’s—
BOBBY: You might be right.
ALEX: That’s why we love him so much.
RICHARD: He’s the—
BOBBY: He’s just like five-five, you know? Like, I just—
RICHARD: The equal and opposite reaction to that time John Smoltz was in the bullpen.
BOBBY: Right, exactly. But covering—
RICHARD: Where everyone’s looking around like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: Like, “Man, how about that beer?” And John Smoltz is like, “Well, you know, I was on the back nine the other day.” “Bitch, shut up. You don’t belong with us.”
BOBBY: Yeah. He’s really not a one of us kind of situation. I mean, the Braves drafted Spencer Strider thinking he was going to become a reliever, so maybe that was his destiny, and God stepped in or something, I don’t know.
RICHARD: Yeah, he was— he’s like Tom Hanks and Big where he made a wish. It’s like, “Oh, you know, I’d really love to be a starter.”
BOBBY: And it actually worked out.
ALEX: And it worked.
RICHARD: Yeah.
BOBBY: What’s—
RICHARD: Like—
BOBBY: What’s— what’s your relationship these days to, like, firing up a baseball game 162 times a year? Like, how often are you, like, watching— watching a full game? Like, what’s— what’s your— ’cause Alex and I have sort of, like, ebbed and flowed over the years of, like, just being able, like, through different periods of our lives t—o to watch more, to watch less, to watch late night West Coast baseball to— you know, when I lived on the West Coast, I was watching— I found it harder to watch East Coast teams. Like, what is, like, your standard Richard Staff watching a week of baseball like these days? And even though I know it’s the offseason.
RICHARD: I am horribly diseased as you know.
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: And I’m the number one hog at the shit snarfing contest. I will watch every single Mets game. I— I won’t watch the post games, but I’ll watch them. And if they’re— the early game, I’ll watch—
BOBBY: That was— that was Zeile slander, Todd Zeile slander here on the pod.
RICHARD: “The sea— the this gets the zeal of approval.” Thank— thanks, Todd. Get a little louder.
BOBBY: Yeah, I think the last week— the last week in American History got the zeal of approval too, unfortunately.
RICHARD: Oh, poor guy. But it— I will live and die with the awful Mets and everything else is just nice decoration around the side. Sometimes you want to watch one of the reverse protest Oakland Athletics games. You pop it on sometimes. The Mets are over early. They get rained out. Hey, I’ll watch Shohei Ohtani. It’s— I’m really only tethered to the Mets. That’s the one constant. But it’s really— you guys probably know better than I do as a dullard, that if the more you learn about baseball, the harder it is to watch.
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: Thinking about how much of it is just this awful ground down mulch that comes out the other end, hearing about the stories these guys were telling about the Minor Leagues, and then the next day, having to be like, “Ooh, time to watch The Mets.” It’s like, “Well, I— I feel like I’m watching something I shouldn’t be watching, but I’m in too deep here.”
ALEX: Yeah, there’s just— there’s this cognitive dissonance you like have to employ and say, “I’m gonna respectfully not think about the— the levels of exploitation that this game is built on, because Shohei Ohtani go boom.”
BOBBY: Yeah, you know, like the—
ALEX: Five big booms for Shohei Ohtani.
BOBBY: You know, like— please stop with the fucking Rizzler on the pod. Like, we have to make it stop. The—
RICHARD: Could— could you expand on The Rizzler a little bit?
BOBBY: Guys, just please shut it off. Like, I just— isn’t there a switch somewhere, like, in some— on some sort of internet server somewhere that I can shut it off and I could never see it again, Rich, please?
RICHARD: That sounds like a doom for you, Bobby.
BOBBY: I was gonna say that, like, I feel sort of, like, my relationship to baseball and, like, the just general exploitative system that baseball has built on top of is, like, when people post the meme of the bell curve, and there’s like the dumb guy on one side being like, “Don’t think too hard about it. Baseball’s sick.” And then there’s like— all of us— like the— the middle five and a half years of this pod, Alex, of, like, the people in the middle are just like, “Actually, baseball is exploitative and you have to think about it in anti-capitalist’s lens and think about it—”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And then, like, the— like, in the inside and on the other end, it’s like, “Actually, just shut all of that off and enjoy baseball for what it is.” Like, I feel like I’m more—
RICHARD: Yeah.
BOBBY: —sort of, like, on that end now. Honestly, I’ve thought about it for a really long time, and I’ve decided, guess what? I’m gonna love baseball anyway, because they can’t take that from me.
RICHARD: I’m getting that— I’m turning into that meme sometimes you see when someone does, like, a big, long rant on Twitter or whatever, and it’s just a middle-aged dad at the grill, and he says, “That’s crazy. Catch the game last night?” It’s like, “Yeah, I’m sort of there.” It’s like, don’t think about, like, that one story where the Padres are— were like, “Hey, this 11-year old we tried to sign was actually 17.”
BOBBY: Dude—
RICHARD: It’s like—
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: —I don’t think that’s the problem here.
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: It’s like, I’ll— I’ll just put that away in my mind. I— I won’t think about that. “Hey, you guys see the game last night? That was wild.”
ALEX: I’m— since you guys both referenced memes, I feel like I have to— I’m the— I’m the— the guys on the bus, you know, where like—
BOBBY: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
ALEX: —like one is looking at, like, the— the—
BOBBY: Yeah, yeah.
ALEX: —passing guy, and I bounce back and forth between seats. Like, I’m the only two people on that bus.
BOBBY: What other memes are you?
RICHARD: The Rizzler?
ALEX: Bobby Wagner will end this zoom right now.
BOBBY: I’ll delete this whole fucking podcast. I have that power, Rich. We’ve done a— we’ve done a great interview here. We’ve had a serious chat about the Minor Leagues and your great work for defector.com and I’ll delete it all. I’m not afraid.
RICHARD: How many booms would you give this recording?
[laughter]
BOBBY: Do you have, like, an internet presence like that, where you’re just like, “I don’t get it. I don’t understand it, and I’m not— I don’t understand the lore. Like, it just baffles you every single time.”? Like The Rizzler, for me?
RICHARD: Yeah. It’s also The Rizzler.
ALEX: Right. You just gotta accept it.
RICHARD: [1:04:23] yeah.
BOBBY: Alex is Jomboy. He just doesn’t understand how that happens.
ALEX: Right. You guys are— are looking at the rock on— on the bus, the— the— the mountainous, craggy mountain side.
BOBBY: You nailed it.
ALEX: And it’s really— really hard to explain memes.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: As we learn every couple weeks on this podcast.
BOBBY: No, I thought— I— I thought me and Rich did a really good job, but you kind of [1:04:45]
ALEX: You did, but I— I fumbled it.
RICHARD: I think it’s— you [1:04:48]
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: What— what if The Rizzler did lip readings? How would we feel about that one?
ALEX: Hmm.
RICHARD: This lip reading is sponsored by Mountain Dew.
BOBBY: Was The Rizzler even alive when the Astros stole signs? Like I don’t even know how old this kid is supposed to be.
RICHARD: He was the trash can they were banging.
[laughter]
BOBBY: What is happening? It’s just crazy. Rich, would you like to weigh in on whether or not the Mets fucked up their whole season by embracing Hawk Tuah girl because of the immorality of the entire fame that that— that caused?
RICHARD: I would love to blame Hawk Tuah girl, but then I think about the fact Jared Leto threw a first pitch.
ALEX: There you go.
BOBBY: Dude. Yeah. That is actually kind of lost on people this season. That was, like, maybe the— the bottom of the barrel for the— for the year for me. Like, what are we doing? Like, 30 Seconds to Mars wasn’t even that good.
RICHARD: Yeah.
BOBBY: We don’t need to— we don’t need to rehabilitate this guy from that scene, of all people for that man.
RICHARD: Everything was so great and then there was a post that come through. It’s like, “Oh, what’s this? It’s the Mets.” It’s like, “Oh, Jared Leto is going to be here.” And you look into those eyes and it’s like in Jaws, you look— it’s like a doll’s eyes. There’s nothing in there.
ALEX: Hmm.
RICHARD: It’s—
BOBBY: It’s just like Satan himself.
RICHARD: And you think, “Oh, this season’s over now.”
ALEX: That’s like an AI generated man, right? That video was like— was so bizarre. It was like him standing in, like, corn— corn field.
RICHARD: Wasn’t he with, like, hate mails or some—
ALEX: Right.
RICHARD: Yeah.
ALEX: Yes, exactly. I think he was trying to do like a—
BOBBY: I don’t understand.
ALEX: —like a Field of Dreams reference. But, like, just— just go home, man. Go back to your cult or whatever you’re up to these days.
BOBBY: When are they gonna let you throw out the first pitch, dude?
Richard? They’re never going to let me throw out the first pitch.
BOBBY: Nah. I think they— I think you could do it, one of these days. I think you could do it.
RICHARD: You think they’ll— you think they’ll let me do it with a Richard Nixon mask on?
BOBBY: I think they’ll let you do it with a Mike Francesa mask on.
RICHARD: “Wait a minute.” That’s who I always strive to be. I want to have perfect hair, be 70 years old.
BOBBY: Yes.
RICHARD: And have people calling me every day in my life about Jason Giambi.
BOBBY: Yep, dude. Just— just like trying to pull a prank on me, trying to get me mad, you know? Trying to get me to angrily ask for another Diet Coke. That’s the way that you want your life to turn out.
ALEX: And then—
RICHARD: You don’t want any Marconi I have?
ALEX: And then— and then the show is better when you get mad. You’re encouraged to get mad.
BOBBY: Yeah, dude.
RICHARD: Yeah.
ALEX: It’s frankly uninteresting when you don’t get mad.
BOBBY: And no one’s hurt by it, you know? It’s just—
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: It exists on FM radio and then it goes away, you know? It goes away.
RICHARD: There is nothing I would love more in 50 years for someone to call up and be like, “Oh, man, you hear Chris Pratt died?” And I go, “Who? Who cares?”
ALEX: Right.
RICHARD: “Who’s that, for kids?”
BOBBY: I live— I live by Schenectady Ave. and every time I drive past it, I think of the horse from Schenectady, my personal favorite Mike Francesa freak out.
RICHARD: The horse.
BOBBY: It’s just like I— I have done that rant myself in my car alone many times.
RICHARD: He’s so good. He really is everything that’s buried deep down in a New Yorker.
BOBBY: Yeah, dude.
ALEX: Yeah.
RICHARD: You want to sound like that, you want to look like that, and you want to yell.
BOBBY: He is like the it ego and super ego all wrapped into one.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: You know, like at various states, I am Mike Francesca. Mike Francesca at all times.
RICHARD: There’s sometimes you just want to look at the world around you and go, “Wait a second.” And I— like sometimes you got to throw it to the mink man. You got to give yourself 10, but you know, he’s— he’s a very elusive future, and I— I don’t think it’s possible anymore to be a Mike Francesa.
BOBBY: I don’t think so, either, but we’re trying. You know, we’re trying— we— we don’t need leftist Joe Rogan, we need leftist Mike Francesa.
ALEX: There you go.
RICHARD: “Oh, wait a minute. You mean to tell me that the means of production, okay. The workers gonna grab it, I don’t think so.”
ALEX: Now, you’re just doing Bernie at this point. Like—
BOBBY: It’s not that far off, man.
RICHARD: They’re clo— it’s just—
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah.
BOBBY: Like, in terms of charisma, they’re appealing for the same reasons. Just like a fucking guy, you know? A guy who looks like a square. You know, he’s just like— he’s there, he’s rectangular, and he’s grumpy, but like what he’s saying, you kind of understand why he feels so strongly about it. Like Bernie, they took the fucking Dodgers for him. We almost had a socialist president because they moved the Dodgers from Brooklyn to LA. That’s the truth. And yet, he still won’t come on this podcast and talk about it. Rich, we’ve tried to book him—
ALEX: Shame. Shameful.
BOBBY: —through— through every manner we know how. We’ve talked to former campaign staffers. We’ve talked to comms people. We’ve asked many times, and Bernie still won’t come on the pod.
RICHARD: Yeah. I— I was trying to get him for the Brooklyn Dodgers story I wrote, and he switched communications directors as I was doing it, so it ended up getting cut off there. But there was half a chance for a fleeting moment in time that I could have asked him, “Bernie, speak on Gil Hodges for me real quick.” And—
ALEX: That’s a pretty— that’s a pretty committed way to show—
BOBBY: To dodge you.
ALEX: —to show someone that you don’t want to speak with them.
RICHARD: Yeah.
ALEX: I literally fired the person who was in charge of talking with you.
BOBBY: Bro, I’m just gonna show up to Burlington, Vermont with a recorder, and I’m gonna be like, “You’re on Tipping Pitches now. What do you have to say?” Like that— this is a thing that I’m going to do before he dies, or before I die, because I might die before him. I don’t know. He seems to have some sort of life force in him that I can’t relate to, you know? He just keeps getting out there and talking about the same stuff. So I think that— that— we can expense that, Alex. We can go to Burlington, and we can bring the recorder, and I can ask him.
ALEX: Absolutely.
RICHARD: What are people paying you on Patreon for, if not to corner Bernie Sanders, and ask him very sternly, how about the miners?”
BOBBY: Yeah, it’s not like he has social— it’s not like he has secret service. You know, he never had that close to the presidency. They took Trump’s Secret Service away after he was president.
RICHARD: Yeah. Listen if— if Trump’s not getting it after he’s president, second place in South Carolina is not getting anything, buddy. There’s no one to protect you from the podcasters.
BOBBY: Yeah, answer my question now. Answer it. I don’t even know what I would ask at this point. Like, it’s been so many years, you know? But—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —we would figure something out.
RICHARD: Walking up to him like Beavis, like, “Hey, how’s it going?”
[laughter]
RICHARD: Right before getting tackled and shot by whatever mounted police force they have in Vermont.
BOBBY: I’ve been to Burlington, Vermont. Nice place. Nice place.
RICHARD: Is that where they make the coats?
BOBBY: Yeah. Yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Everybody just building them in the streets, child labor. It’s horrible. I don’t know how Bernie’s been such a national figure with that horrible thing going on out there.
RICHARD: No wonder he’s so mad. We— we should cancel this guy.
BOBBY: Any big hopes and dreams in 2025, Rich, for stories that you want to work on, stuff you want to do on the pod, outcomes of the Mets season? What are you looking forward to most?
RICHARD: I look forward— I need my beautiful Mets to win a World Series for me. I— I’m so old. I’m 26, I’m dying, and I need them to win before I return to the dust. And as far as podcast and writings go, podcast, I hope that we are able to get more guests that are interesting. I guess I could say it now, because this doesn’t come out until after we record the episode. But Staffcast is having the illustrious Andrew Miller on to talk about absolutely nothing of interest, which I think— I love squandering opportunities to ask good questions. And instead ask like, “Who do you think— you think your beard was as good as, like, Mike Napoli’s, or was that something between you guys?”
BOBBY: All right. If everyone in the 2016 Cleveland Guardians bullpen played Monopoly, who would flip the table over first?
RICHARD: Yeah. You think— did Tony Sipp have rizz?
[laughter]
BOBBY: That’s a good get. I like that as a guest that fits into the weird reliever genre. If you want someone to ask him serious questions, you could send him over to the Tipping Pitches Zoom link, and we can ask him, like, what it was like to be the most active labor organizers for MLBPA for—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —like, a decade.
ALEX: Significantly less fun conversation for him, I will say.
RICHARD: Oh, was— was that something he did?
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: Is that why he had to get permission from the Players Association to come on the podcast?
BOBBY: He still works over there in some capacity, right? Like he’s like a—
RICHARD: Yeah, he got a new job. He—
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: —went back to school last year, and then this year, got some sort of job in the higher [1:13:19]
BOBBY: Oh, my God. He’s in grads— grad school, midlife crisis era? Go—
ALEX: I— I told you, Bobby. I told you. The grad school era is upon us.
BOBBY: Rich, do you know anyone going to grad school because they’re like, “Whoa, don’t know what to do with my life?”
RICHARD: Oh, yeah. Not just the relievers, it’s everyone.
ALEX: It comes for us all.
RICHARD: And [1:13:36] back, what— how can you say relievers are not the most relatable people when an ALCS MVP reliever is like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
RICHARD: —”You know, I’ll go to grad school.”
BOBBY: Yeah. And I’ll get a white collar desk job.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Amazing shit. Well, he is Richard Staff. You probably know him from funny replies on Twitter. You might know him from Staffcast or defector.com.
ALEX: On the— on X the everything app.
BOBBY: Oh.
RICHARD: Blaze your glory.
BOBBY: Rich, thank you so much for— for coming on. This is fun.
RICHARD: I’m glad to end the Cold War.
[theme]
BOBBY: Thank you to Richard Staff. Thank you to the dear listener listening to this podcast right now. You keep the world going around here at Tipping Pitches. We appreciate your support and your time. Hope everybody had a lovely Thanksgiving. Thank you to you, Alex, for doing the work, for posting again, for logging back on, for recording this podcast after 8:00 pm which is, frankly, this— the only time we can get our— to our truly best levels.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Later this week, we are going to have a Patreon episode. It’s going to be another movie watchalong, or at least that’s what the plan is at time of recording. You can find that over at patreon.com/tippingpitches, where there are three separate tiers. The top tier gets you access to the bonus feed, where there’s whole back catalog of more than 20 bonus episodes over the last year. We put those out twice a month, and they’re honestly some of the work that I’m most proud of here at the Tipping Pitches Incorporated. I don’t know what the watchalong is going to be yet, but we’re going to pick something fun. And a movie watchalong is when we— we watch a movie and we do a commentary track for it, and you can watch that movie at home as well, and sync the podcast up at the beginning of the movie. It’s just a— a jolly old time.
ALEX: It is. I love watching movies with you, Bobby. We don’t do it enough.
BOBBY: Well, I— I try. You know, I’m— I’m trying.
ALEX: You do.
BOBBY: I’m doing the work. I’m giving you the opportunities to watch films with me quite often, like sicko, double feature of Taxi Driver and Lady Vengeance on a Saturday night.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know? That’s what I’m offering here.
ALEX: I know. I know.
BOBBY: Thanks everybody for listening. Like I said, Patreon feed later this week, and then we’ll be back to the normally scheduled programming in just one week’s time. Actually, it’s not even normally scheduled programming in one week’s time. It’s main character month, Alex.
ALEX: Oh, my God. It’s already here?
BOBBY: It’s already here. Mentioned a couple weeks ago on social media and on the pod that one of our plans for this offseason was that we were going to spend December doing main character month. What I mean by that is we were going to spend each episode of the month of December focusing in on what we would call sort of like a main character in the Tipping Pitches universe. You all know who these figures are. You probably have a couple— my couple of names coming into your mind right now as I say this. I’m just going to go right ahead and say that next week in the first episode of main character month, we’re going to be focusing on a gentleman named Alex Rodriguez. And to do that, Alex Bazeley has concocted what we are calling A-Rod’s rules to life. The most important lessons you can learn from consuming the content of Alex Rodriguez at an unhealthy pace. That is all I will say now. Goddamn it, I’m looking forward to it. I’m looking forward to learning what Alex can teach me through Alex Rodriguez.
ALEX: I— it’s— it’s gonna be like I ended up getting that internship in A-Rod Corp. You know, you’re not gonna tell the difference.
BOBBY: You didn’t?
ALEX: Shh.
BOBBY: Thank you, everybody, for listening. We’ll be back in just one week’s time with A-Rod’s rules to life.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
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