Bobby and Alex gather to react to a World Series bookended with two classic games that the Dodgers ultimately dominated over the Yankees. They discuss the shocking Freddie Freeman performance, the resilience of a very injured Dodgers pitching staff, the buttons that Dave Roberts pressed to navigate all 27 outs each time they took the field, an underwhelming Yankees showing, the outlook for Los Angeles heading forward, and what the league might try to learn from their dominant season.
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Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t tipping his pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, what are we gonna do? We don’t have baseball. There’s no more baseball.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: That’s really setting in for me.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Because we sat down to record this podcast, I was like, “Oh, I’ll go get my other laptop, and I’ll set it up on the couch here for us to watch, like whatever game is on.” Because we— when we record at night, I usually just throw on the Mets or whatever— whoever— whatever team is on. There’s no teams on.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: It doesn’t feel good.
ALEX: And I already know there are people yelling into their phones right now, right? “Oh, there’s Winter League Baseball.”
BOBBY: Has that started already?
ALEX: There’s AFL.
BOBBY: I guess it has started.
ALEX: You know?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I’m talking good, old-fashioned, American-made baseball. Domestic product.
BOBBY: What— what are your feelings on NAFTA? Bring those jobs home?
ALEX: Yeah. What— see, the thing about trade is it’s one of those things that people say it, and I’m kind of like, “All right, I’m out.”
BOBBY: You’re out because you don’t think that we should trade with other countries and we should only— we should hard close the borders—
ALEX: Right. I’m a protectionist.
BOBBY: —and— okay. That’s an interesting quality—
ALEX: [1:31] right?
BOBBY: I don’t know.
ALEX: See, this is why I turned out.
BOBBY: Is that different than, like— that’s— that’s different than preservationist. That’s a good thing. You want to be preservationist, right?
ALEX: Right, right. Yes, yeah.
BOBBY: That’s preserving the environment.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Protectionist sounds bad. Bad connotation.
ALEX: Yeah. Well, it’s like protecting your own interests above all others, I think.
BOBBY: Okay. But then— I mean, you do, you are kind of that way in life.
ALEX: You’re right.
BOBBY: Extremely like election’s in five days energy to the start of this pod. Why are we putting this off? The Dodgers won the World Series. The Dodgers beat the New York Yankees. The only thing you got fucking wrong about predicting—
ALEX: Pretty much.
BOBBY: —this October. The main one, you got it wrong. Although you did say Teoscar Hernandez for World Series MVP as well.
ALEX: Yeah. So although I was pressed on that. That was not one of my true or falses. So—
BOBBY: God forbid I asked you a fucking question here on this podcast of ours.
ALEX: I’m just saying it’s not canon. Although I— again, I will— I will also say—
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: —you did ask if we were going back to Los Angeles. I said, “Not a chance.”
BOBBY: Yeah, you were right about that.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah. So you pivoted to be correct.
ALEX: Right. I think you just need to—
BOBBY: You can always find yourself—
ALEX: —check in with me every, like—
BOBBY: Day or so?
ALEX: —day or so.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And then I will update my prediction based on— I’m kind of like a model in— in a few ways.
BOBBY: Dare I ask you about the events of Tuesday, November 5th? I— I read somewhere from Nate Silver that we’re supposed to trust our guts. You trusted your gut about the New York Yankees, and it led—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —you on the right path. I didn’t— I— I guess I trusted my gut and it led me sort of on the right path. I did predict the Dodgers—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —to win the World Series.
ALEX: You did, yeah.
BOBBY: On account of the fact that they are better than the Yankees. They were better than the Yankees all year. They had a tougher path than the Yankees. They have better players— players than the Yankees, and they don’t play sloppy baseball.
ALEX: Right. And they’re the fucking Los Angeles Dodgers. Like, really— I think we all sort of deluded ourselves into thinking this isn’t an even matchup. Yeah, the Dodgers are actually not who they’ve been saying they are for the last decade.
BOBBY: I don’t think I did delude myself. I think I was on the Dodgers train—
ALEX: Okay. Right. You did.
BOBBY: —the whole time. All right. We’re gonna— we’re gonna keep talking about— we’re gonna keep talking about the World Series. We’re gonna talk about the fact that Alex is wearing a shirt with Henry Kissinger’s face on it, I— I guess—
ALEX: As my Yankees gear.
BOBBY: —a way of honoring the New York Yankees on the day after they’ve been eliminated. To be clear, the shirt also says, “Hell is patient.” It’s not just like a fan boy—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —Henry Kissinger shirt.
ALEX: I— well, I was wondering, like, what he would be thinking right—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —about now watching the Yankees lose World Series. The conclusion I came to is—
BOBBY: Bomb—
ALEX: —ah, fuck. It’s so hot. Oh, my God, I’m burning. Aah, get me out of here.
BOBBY: I was gonna say bomb Dodger Stadium.
ALEX: Yeah. There you go.
BOBBY: And we’re gonna talk about the long, cold offseason that is upon us. But before we do, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
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BOBBY: Happy Halloween, Alex. What’d you go as today to work? Because you go into the office.
ALEX: Because I do— I do go into the office.
BOBBY: Me? No, no, no. I have business coffees at 10:00 am. I come back, have some lunch.
ALEX: Business coffees?
BOBBY: Yeah. I put it on our card.
ALEX: You’re— you’re a real networker. That’s— that’s what the people don’t know about you, is that you’re making moves out here.
BOBBY: I don’t— I don’t go to networking events, I make connections. I’m not a networker, I make connections. One-on-one connections with people whose time I value and they value my time. It’s not like you, just fucking chumming it up on LinkedIn with anybody and everybody.
ALEX: Oh, clocked. Yeah.
BOBBY: You’ve probably been to way more networking events than me.
ALEX: That actually is probably true. I do. That is actually a part of my day jobs description.
BOBBY: To network?
ALEX: Well, to, like, go to conferences, go to events, you know?
BOBBY: Now, people at home may be thinking, why are these guys talking about networking when they could be talking about the World Series? If you’ve ever been to Yankee Stadium up in the Bronx, you know that it’s just a glorified setting to network in. It’s not a place where real baseball gets played. And that’s how the Yankees treated it this past week. They were bounced in five games. The Los Angeles Dodgers looked like a much better team. The Yankees could not get out of their own way, even the players who played well, such as Gerrit Cole, who pitched well in both games, but was let down by the Yankees defense last night—
ALEX: And his own.
BOBBY: —such as— and his own defense. Such as Giancarlo Stanton, who continued to hit multiple home runs that ultimately didn’t have much— much consequence on the outcome of any of the games. I’ll start here, Alex. Is this a good World Series?
ALEX: It’s interesting because I think if you looked at sort of the raw numbers on the page, looked at the box scores, saw that it went five games, you might be inclined to say, “Oh, a little one-sided here.” And it did sort of feel that way watching it, but it also didn’t make it any less entertaining. Like, it did seem like the Dodgers kind of had the upper hand most of the time, in part because the Yankees were letting them. But I found it to be a really fun series, like I really enjoyed watching all the games. There were some really incredible momentum swings. There— you—
BOBBY: How can something that’s not real swing?
ALEX: But that’s— well, that’s true. There were narratives galore. We got to talk—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —about Aaron Judge for getting out of hit for, like, a week and a half, or a month, really.
BOBBY: The way that they were talking about Aaron Judge in game four, where they kept saying, “He’s getting close. He’s getting close.” It was like— it’s like they were—
ALEX: It was—
BOBBY: —talking about a Little Leaguer.
ALEX: I know. And then, like, in— after his first at-bat, in game five, he, like, drew a walk, and Tom Verducci is interviewing Aaron Boone, so it’s like— so like, “Aaron Judge having a rough series, but able to take a walk his first time up. Do you think that’s something he’ll be able to build on?” I’m like, “What?”
BOBBY: We really need to retire— I— this is, like, the least unique point possible to make to retire the dugout interviews. But we need to just, like, retire Tom Verducci in general. Like, he’s out there, like, struggling, you know? His post-game interview with Aaron Boone, did you see this at all? Were you watching after the game?
ALEX: I watched some. I was tuning in and out.
BOBBY: You know, like, sometimes, like, the manager will come out into the hallway or whatever and talk to the—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —reporter about, like, the end of the series. Like, you see— we’ve seen this in many sports.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And Aaron Boone did it with Tom Verducci, and it lasted, like, 15 seconds. And there was not that much insightful. You know, he was talking about how Gerrit pitched really well and, you know, it was a frustrating loss, but, like, credit to the Dodgers, whatever. All the same boiler plate stuff. And then they— they wrapped the interview, and they came back, and Burkhardt was like, “Man, real credit to Aaron Boone for doing that there. That’s a tough interview for anyone.” And then he was like, “And credit to Tom for really asking great questions.” I was like, “What are we doing here? Like, what is this?” This is ,like, the pageantry of congratulating the losing team for losing right?
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: But not A-Rod, though. A-Rod was crushing the Yanks on the post-game yesterday.
ALEX: Yeah, I know.
BOBBY: He was like, “They weren’t good enough. They were downright embarrassing with the defense.” I was like, “Let’s fucking go.”
ALEX: He was— yeah, he was cooking.
BOBBY: He was. Well, he was just reading Mike Francesca tweets verbatim, but—
ALEX: He literally was so good, so good.
BOBBY: He’s the best. He’s the best. So you found it to be a good series, nonetheless?
ALEX: I did, and— and that’s— honestly, despite the fact that some of these stars— in fact, two of the biggest stars who were billed as facing off in this series, you know, didn’t show up, or— or didn’t— did— were not—
BOBBY: Yeah. Verdugo and Gavin Lux.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Yes. Who were facing off against each other somehow?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well, which two stars were you talking about?
ALEX: Well, I was going Volpe.
BOBBY: Volpe who hit like a gigantic grand slam?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Game four, the Volpe game.
ALEX: Volpe game.
BOBBY: After me saying that he was an automatic out.
ALEX: Yep.
BOBBY: Yeah, tough. It’s okay. Anthony Rizzo was the automatic out I was looking for.
ALEX: God, can I just say? It was really, really hard watching Shohei Ohtani come up to the plate in those last four games or whatever.
BOBBY: Probably because he shouldn’t have been coming up to the plate.
ALEX: It’s— well, exactly. He’s, like, sitting there after every swing. You can see he’s gritting his teeth a little bit. He’s grimacing. You know, he was doing the thing—
BOBBY: He’s what?
ALEX: —where he’s—
BOBBY: Ohtani to the Mets confirmed?
ALEX: He’s holding his shoulder, you know, in position when he’s on base, as if it’s in a sling.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
ALEX: It was just like— I— you don’t need to do this. You’re the— you’re— this man is headed for surgery right now. Like—
BOBBY: Yeah, probably.
ALEX: And I— maybe that’s the case even if he doesn’t play in these games, but I just couldn’t help but think, like, maybe there’s a longer term risk here than— that outweighs the benefit of having the world-debated best player at a diminished level.
BOBBY: I think Dave Roberts mentioned this in the post-game or talked to some reporter. I saw some people sharing that he was, yeah, more injured than they were letting on. And the goal of that was basically to send him up there and to have him seem intimidating enough that the other team might walk him.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know, he— he did draw a couple walks after getting injured. He got injured in game three.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: So he only had to play two games hurt. He looked pretty bad in both of them, but he drew a couple walks in those two games, and he did have a base hit in game four to lead off the game for the Dodgers. And I believe it was like a 105 exit velocity, so even hurt Shohei Ohtani is like—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —better than Aaron Judge. And, you know, Judge ended up a home run yesterday, but that didn’t really help them much in the series. They were already losing three to one. Yeah, to the extent that it might have some long-lasting impacts, I think it’s hard to say. He could have a partially torn labrum, and he would have to have surgery. If that’s the case, it could just be a strain, which is like a softer tear, basically.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And you can— you can rehab that, and it’s not in his throwing shoulder, and it’s not his front side shoulder on his swing. So you would hope that he would get full mobility back and full strength back for that. And they will probably never let him steal a base ever again. So I wasn’t so much worried about, like, the long-lasting impact. I— I just— when he went up there and pitchers pitched him competitively, it just looked like he had no shot of getting a hit, because—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —in order to actually complete his swing, he either had to let one hand off the bat, which is a really hard thing to just start doing if you don’t do that naturally in your swing motion. I know plenty of guys do, but he doesn’t. Or he had to just pull his whole body out, because it was clear that he couldn’t rotate his left shoulder through—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —on his follow through on his swing. So he would have— he’s had to— you saw it many times where it looked like he was totally selling out, trying to hit it 600 feet, because really what was happening was he was turning his whole body to avoid his shoulder rotating more. He was just turning his torso more so that his shoulder would come around with it, his back shoulder. Yeah, that was tough to watch. I mean, I kept watching it, thinking about my own shoulder, which has been hurting a lot recently, and I— it’s done— not a promising sign 10 years out from my shoulder surgery, 12 years out from my shoulder surgery. But I also thought of like other guys who have had shoulder problems, like Cody Bellinger, that set him back multiple years, basically. Michael Conforto, who dislocated his shoulder on a freak swing that ended up being his front shoulder. Same thing for Bellinger, too. So those were much more, I think, serious problems for them to overcome. But still, shoulders— shoulders are weird, man. Like they— no other joint in your body rotates the way that your shoulder does. No other joint is designed to rotate 360 degrees besides shoulder, ankle, and wrist.
ALEX: Oh, all right, Dr. Bob.
BOBBY: Well, I mean, just think about it. As someone who’s had shoulder problems, and you know, no other part of your body, like, has that much leverage on the— as the shoulder joint—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —with that much rotation, and so it’s something that can— can continue to prevent problems. So hopefully they get it figured out. I mean, I’m— I’m sure they— all the best doctors will be on it, you know? Like— but I— I agree with you that it was weird to watch, like, the best player in the world go up there and be like, is he doing more damage to himself? Like, is he just in a slump? Like, what is—
ALEX: Yeah. Well, also it’s like he just didn’t look like himself, right? He didn’t look like the impose— I mean, physically he did, obviously, right? But when he was swinging, you could just tell that something wasn’t quite right.
BOBBY: But him and Freddie Freeman just traded bodies.
ALEX: I guess so.
BOBBY: Freeman got fucking healthy. I don’t know if he got the— the right cortisone dosage or what, but—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —he looked as healthy as you can possibly be. And there was a report today that said that not only was he dealing with the ankle injury, but he— that he also had, like, rib cartilage issues or, like, broken rib cartilage.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t know, man. He must have been doped up for these games, whether that was via adrenaline or cortisone or something else.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: He was feeling good.
ALEX: Yep.
BOBBY: That’s World Series MVP, Freddie Freeman.
ALEX: Did you think it was a good series? Did you enjoy it?
BOBBY: I did. I thought that one in five were incredible games. Two through four— four was kind of a stinker. It was just the Yankees blow out, and they poured on against Brent Honeywell and—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —Dave Roberts made the— who— Dave Roberts, who I want to talk about more in a second. Made the calculation to not use high leverage guys. We could have them available in game five. And then later on in the series if they needed them for a bullpen game or whatever. I thought games two and three were actually quite boring, if I’m being honest. Those were the games where, I think, to your point, it felt like the Dodgers were in control, but also they weren’t doing that many exciting things. Game three, they hit a few home runs, got out to an early lead. And like a 4-0 lead felt like 40 to nothing. And even though Verdugo had a two-run home run to cut the lead in half in the ninth inning, it never felt like the Yankees were going to come back.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And they just like— there was not a lot of traffic on the base path. There was not a lot of, like, bang, bang plays. It just looks like not a lot going on. And there weren’t even, like, that compelling pitching performances on either side. I mean, Yamamoto was good in that game, but Clarke Schmidt sucked for the Yankee side, so it wasn’t like a pitcher’s duel or anything like that. So it was just kind of, like, eh. But that being said, we got kind of, like, two bangers in a World Series that only went five games, so—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —you know?
ALEX: And— and a lot of, like, really memorable moments too, for better and for worse, whether they are grand slams or, like— like—
BOBBY: Dropped fly balls in the outfield?
ALEX: Dropped fly balls or light felonies against players. You know, like—
BOBBY: Do you want to talk about that?
ALEX: Yeah, well, I— I mean, let’s use this opportunity to just bring on our next guest, actually, the man himself.
BOBBY: I mean, why even beat around the bush? We’ve— we’ve decided to— to executive produce his podcast. So this is the— the launch of the Tipping Pitches Podcast Network. We’re folding in him as well as the Hawk-Tua pod.
ALEX: You saw he went on Barstool?
BOBBY: Yeah, dude, of course, I saw.
ALEX: Right after ESPN. You know, the ESPN to Barstool pipeline?
BOBBY: Boy, do I. And Barstool to ESPN pipeline.
ALEX: Oh, well—
BOBBY: Those— that’s a two-way street.
ALEX: —that’s— it’s a revolving door.
BOBBY: Seriously, I thought it was funny that after his social media was surfaced that the last two things he had retweeted were, like, Barstool and— and Brassers. [18:27]
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: His last name being Capobianco—
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: —I was like, “Bro.” I like— actually, like, I can’t comment on this.
ALEX: I know. I know.
BOBBY: Because I was like, “This person may or may not be, like, three degrees removed from me, like—”
ALEX: Right. You may [18:47] a family reunion in a couple years.
BOBBY: “—like I may share blood this person, literally.” I just thought that the Jesse Rogers thing was downright ridiculous and despicable. Despicable may be strong. Ridiculous and, like, so, wrong-headed, like so— to the point where, like, it actually makes me question, like, whether or not you are fit to, like, tell me things about baseball?
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, to me— so for those who weren’t— who are not extremely online, I guess.
BOBBY: Come on now. Who listening to this is not extremely online?
ALEX: I know. With Jesse Rogers, ESPN reporter covering Chicago baseball, other sports? I don’t know.
BOBBY: He’s like— he— he started out as a Cubs beat reporter.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But since then, has transitioned into more of a national writer for ESPN. He breaks a lot of news, actually.
ALEX: He does, yes. Yeah.
BOBBY: Which is a red flag. I only break news and, like, whose palms are you being— who— who’s greasing your palm?
ALEX: Yeah. I— he found the— the fan in question who was trying to pry the ball from Mookie’s glove after that game at a bar nearby, and chatted him up, wrote a story about him, took a picture of him and his buddies, called him a beaut, you know? Just this really bizarre, like—
BOBBY: So weird.
ALEX: —like an action that was renounced by the baseball world, like, kind of top to bottom.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
ALEX: Like Yankees fans included, except for— except for a certain podcast, a certain Yankees podcast. But, like, it just struck me as trying to— trying to, like—
BOBBY: You keep you— keep throwing out that line for them and just waiting for them to bite.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And they don’t do it. They’re not doing it.
ALEX: I’m gonna have to start DM-ing the— the strays to them personally.
BOBBY: Do you remember when he followed us back for, like, two weeks and then unfollowed us promptly?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That was sick.
ALEX: We have a mutual disrespect. It’s okay.
BOBBY: Yeah. Yeah.
ALEX: It just— it just felt like trying to go against the grain of the narrative for, like, no real reason, right? It was like, “Oh, let’s make this a— a cute, little human interest story.” You know? Why did— why did he try to grab the ball? Doesn’t anyone want to know what his headspace was?
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: What he thought he might find in there. Was he searching for something greater than the ball?
BOBBY: Mookie said after game five that that was the closest he’s ever come to fighting someone in his adult life.
ALEX: I really appreciate that someone asked him about it after game five because he did not want to touch it after game four.
BOBBY: No. No.
ALEX: He was— right. He was like, “We just lost.” Immediately after the game, he gets, like, seven questions in a row. “Mookie, is that the most aggressive fan you’ve ever seen? What was that like? We saw your wrist bend a little bit.” And he’s like, “Guys, we lost. I like— frankly, that’s what I care about. I’m fine. He’s fine. Whatever.” And you had to know that wasn’t the whole story.
BOBBY: What a pro.
ALEX: He’s a pro. I love him.
BOBBY: Me, too.
ALEX: Anything else on your brethren?
BOBBY: No, I just think we’re not sending our best and brightest Yankee Stadium these days. Come on.
ALEX: I think we are.
BOBBY: No, I don’t think we are. So my friend and friend of the— friend of the pod, even though he’s never been on it, he— he’s sort of like— you know, he’s out there in the ether.
ALEX: Right. Extend— extended universe.
BOBBY: Generally support— generally supporting things that we support. Matthew Roberson, he writes for GQ Sports. He wrote a piece today that I thought was really good, honestly. That captured kind of, like, how I feel about the Yankees as a cultural product really well. And Matthew writes well about these things, in part because he’s a Yankees hater like us, because he’s a Mariners fan, but in part because he thinks about these things and how— how the Yankees make impact in culture, because he writes for GQ, you know? Like, the Yankee brand is a powerful thing. The Yankee sense of inevitability, the Yankee sense of omnipresence in the baseball world, but in the sports world more generally, and really just, like, globally as a brand for our whole lives, has been true. And Matthew wrote about how their aura is just kind of gone, you know? Like, they haven’t won in long enough to the point where you don’t feel that they’re inevitable. You don’t feel that it’s always going to go right for them. And even if, like, you go back to their last three appearances in the World Series, this loss, kind of embarrassing, win in 2009, pretty embarrassing loss in 2003 against the Florida Marlins, you know? So, like, you leave aside the actual dynasty that stretched from the end of the 90’s into the 2000’s. Now, we’re, like, 20 plus years removed from all of that stuff, so good piece. We’ll link to it in the— in the description of the pod. You should go check that out. I— I’m sort of like— without jumping to too many conclusions about what this means for the future of the Yankees, I think that we can draw more stark conclusions about where the Dodgers are at as a franchise than we can about the Yankees, because they have more question marks, more unknowns. Will they bring back Soto? How will they fill out the rest of the roster? What are they going to do with the pitching? You know, are they going to make it an effort to bring back Gleyber Torres, or is that the kind of guy that you let walk so that you can reshuffle the lineup a little bit?
ALEX: You give Judge some time in the Minors to figure out the kinks in his swing.
BOBBY: I think you might send them to the complex, honestly. Like—
ALEX: Hmm. That’s probably true.
BOBBY: —the Yankees do have four Dominican teams. They’re really doing it like no one else down there.
ALEX: And the Yankees said, “Our empire is alive and well. Trust me.”
BOBBY: They have way more question marks, but— but honestly, like savvy moves can put them right back here. I’m not like, “The Yankees are dead.” I do think this was probably their best opportunity in a long time, just the way that the rest of the American League cleared out for them. And I have sort of like a sub-take that’s been brewing for the last couple weeks that I piloted with Jordan Shusterman the other day, which is that the real reason that the Yankees made it there and thought that they were good enough to win is that our friend Jake Mintz’s team took a huge step back. The Baltimore Orioles took a huge step back and just, like, cleared a lane for them that should not have been there.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And made it seem like the Yankees were actually way better than they actually were. But all that being said, my takeaway from this World Series is that the Dodgers dynasty is— is here. It’s here. It’s been here, but now it’s, like, really here.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And the rest of the league is like, “We’re— we’re in— we’re in trouble. We’re in Yankees late 90’s territory here.” They’ve won two, say what you want about 2020, whatever. They validated it multiple times.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And this was year one of Ohtani’s contract.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And everybody else in the team is here for another seven years, so I mean, they just keep reloading, and they had a whole pitching staff on the IL, and just won the World Series.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: With, like, relievers that they turned good from bad teams. What other conclusion is there to draw besides that this team is leaps and bounds in front of everybody else? I mean, in retrospect, I am sad about the fact that the Mets didn’t find a way to sneak through and beat the Dodgers, because I think they would have beaten the Yankees. But then the flip side of that coin is, damn, it’s crazy that the Mets even took two off this time.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: It’s crazy that the Dodgers pushed them to elimination for two back-to-back— or the Padres rather, pushed them to elimination in two back-to-back games. I just— yeah, that’s my conclusion. The Dodgers dynasty is— it’s here. It’s alive and well.
ALEX: Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, it feels like dynasty reloaded, right? Like, it’s like the next chapter of their dynasty. They’re like, “Hey, we retooled. You know, we’ve been on top for the last 10 years. Change some things around a little bit. You know, we’re gonna usher our— our— one of our greatest pitchers of all time is like, you know, sort of on his way out.” You know, you have some of the mainstays of—
BOBBY: Oh, he was celebrating, though.
ALEX: Oh, he was— right. Yeah.
BOBBY: That shirt came off quick, bro.
ALEX: Instantly, instantly. As it should, as it should. Blessing us all. But yes, it does feel like— like, if you were hoping that maybe the Dodgers dynasty was gonna come to an end, they weren’t gonna understand how to— you know, how to move forward. Signing Shohei Ohtani, like does a lot of things for you, including elongating whatever—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: —period of success you’re having.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Like, full stop.
BOBBY: Yeah, they’re not that old. They’re not cash strapped. They keep winning. They have the biggest star in sports. Like, it’s kind of unbelievable, and I think that they’re going to be better next year than they were this year. Plus, you know, if we can drill down on Dave Roberts for a sec. Two things are true. One, Dave Roberts was always good at being the Dodgers manager. He— you don’t win 100 games, like, every year with a bad manager, who the team doesn’t respect and want to play for. And two, he’s gotten better as a playoff manager.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like, he more confidently pulls the strings and has been given the tools and taught how to use them than he used to. Now, people were pulling their hair— hair out about his bullpen management, about not putting in high leverage guys when the games were close, but it worked. You know? Like this was what— he only had so many guys to cover so many innings, and I gotta say, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a manager press the right buttons more often than he did. In every game that they were down, he went to his low leverage guys and they kept them close. And in every game that they were up, he went to his high leverage guys and they won the game.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It, like— he— they straight up, like, did not make a single mistake.
Alexx: Yeah.
BOBBY: I mean, you can quibble with which guys he went to win based on, like, leverage and win probability and all of these different things. And the fact that they ran out of pitchers yesterday and had to go to Walker Buehler, like that’s a risk that could have blown up in his face. But guess what? It didn’t. They have rings now.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So, like, the— the championship trophy was on a plane to LA last night.
ALEX: At a certain point, I think the quibbling about it is pointless too, right? Because, like, you’re a human, you’re having to make these decisions in real time. You’re not sitting there, staring at a screen that says— well, I mean, maybe these days you are, that says [29:15]
BOBBY: I guess.
ALEX: —Blake Treinen and now— but it’s— but it should like—
BOBBY: You also don’t have your four best pitchers.
ALEX: Right. No, exactly. That’s just my point, is, like, you know who trusted his gut? Dave Roberts.
BOBBY: Nate Silver— yeah, Dave Roberts, too. No, I was thinking Nate Silver. You— so is FiveThirtyEight still your homepage or have you switched it over to the New York Times?
ALEX: No, it’s the Free Press, bro. You know this.
BOBBY: Real Patriot News is not— that has not made a dent. They’re not your homepage yet?
ALEX: No, not— not yet. I do like some of their feature writing, though.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. You did— or you were— you were or were not the person that pushed the Drudge Report left?
ALEX: I— I don’t understand how we do these things. We we— actually, we’re talking about baseball five seconds ago.
BOBBY: I just get really excited sometimes and making you talk about things that you’re uncomfortable going on the record about.
ALEX: I love it. Let’s do it.
BOBBY: Like your long running appreciation for Nate Silver and his brand of political writing. He’s a straight shooter. He was not afraid to say, “Trump’s got a shot.” You know? Because he understood the diners, the voters in America, the closed factories, you know? This is what you’ve been asking for, for decades.
ALEX: I mean, I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, Bob, but he was right. Like—
BOBBY: Much like Dave Roberts.
ALEX: In retrospect, give the man his flowers.
BOBBY: An online mob was not gonna bully him from his position.
[laughter]
BOBBY: I find Dave Roberts to be so fucking charming.
ALEX: He is amazing.
BOBBY: I don’t know— like really—
ALEX: Amazing. I don’t know much about him, like the person prior to his baseball life. I don’t like the— you know, all this shit that we know about people nowadays that we shouldn’t know about people, like how Blake Treinen was at January 6th.
ALEX: Right, yeah.
BOBBY: Like, all that stuff where that, like, truly affects my experience watching baseball games. I don’t know any of that shit about Dave Roberts, and I kind of don’t want to know, because, like, he’s so charming. He’s— he’s so good with the media.
ALEX: He’s— yeah.
BOBBY: He’s like a baseball legend. Like truly in in the long history and lore of baseball, a very significant figure for the steal that he had and just for being a part of the Red Sox team in 2004. Then he goes on to this kind of incredible career as a manager where they just win, like, 100 plus game— 95 plus games every single year, and can’t get over the hump in the playoffs, and still a tremendous amount of patience, a tremendous amount of candor and honesty and, like, willingness to be his best baseball self, like in front of everybody, just— he’s actually the only person who it makes sense to do dugout interviews for during games, because he’s the only one who actually answers the questions.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I kind of love him.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Like, it’s kind of amazing.
ALEX: Yeah, new Joe Torre just dropped.
BOBBY: You’re kind of right. You’re kind of right. He—
ALEX: Right? I mean, like, he’s—
BOBBY: Really, he’s like Buck Showalter, if Buck Showalter could win it all.
ALEX: Yeah, right. There you go.
BOBBY: But he’s not much of a grouch. You know? He’s like a— he’s kind of like a funny guy.
ALEX: He is. He’s very affable.
BOBBY: Super affable. Great word. I would vote for Dave Roberts for president.
ALEX: I think I would— I mean, there’s still— you haven’t voted yet. There’s still time.
BOBBY: You don’t know that I haven’t voted yet.
ALEX: Well, except you told me.
BOBBY: I could have been lying.
ALEX: That’s true.
BOBBY: Yeah. No, I— I’ve been thinking of—
ALEX: But— but I am gonna go with you to vote to ensure that you do vote [32:45] at the time.
BOBBY: You’re saying you were gonna Pokemon Go [32:45] to the polls with me?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Well, I’ve already voted many times. A couple times in PA.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I did vote in California.
ALEX: Can I just say like—
BOBBY: This is not actionable. This is parody.
ALEX: Being your— being your friend has so many benefits. It’s brought me so many wonderful things.
BOBBY: I like this. You can keep going.
ALEX: And honestly, one of the biggest benefits to me is that, like, I understand Bucks County, which comes—
BOBBY: Dude.
ALEX: —in handy so often, at least every four years.
BOBBY: Dude, not only do you understand, you have personal memories from it.
ALEX: I do.
BOBBY: I could tell you all about Bucks County.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: It’s crazy for my, like, main character syndrome that I grew up and moved out of my hometown and then immediately got told, like, my hometown was the most important place—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —in the country.
ALEX: Yep.
BOBBY: That’s crazy. Anyway, Dave Roberts.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: Let me ask you this, every year, it seems like the team that wins the World Series, a bunch of teams in the league tried to copy them. If we dated all the way back to the Royals in 2015, what were the lessons that teams learned? Contact matters in the playoffs, but really you should assemble like a Super Bowl pin that just locks down 6, 7, 8, and 9 every game. Teams obviously have tried that. It’s worked in some ways. It’s backfired in other ways. You go back to the Astros, what were the lessons that teams tried to learn? Tank.
ALEX: Right. And the Cubs.
BOBBY: Yeah, get this— get this powerful, controllable, young core that is cheap. Add around the fringes, strike gold in the bullpen, win yourself a World Series. Fewer lessons were learned from the 2018 Red Sox—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —since they blew that team up for some reason and traded away Mookie Betts.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: I think some lessons here and there from the 2020 Dodgers, less so because it was the shortened season and the playoffs were, like, a little bit different and a little more variable that year. The ’19 Nationals, I think the lesson that teams took was, like, throw your best pitchers on their throw day. Like throw starters on their throw day, if— if you can. If you don’t feel like your bullpen is up to the task. 2021, we know that World Series was canceled. 2022 was the Astros again. And then last year, what— the lesson was what? Like signed Corey Seager, I guess? Have Nathan Eovaldi on your ro— playoff roster if possible. So heading out of this year, what do you think the lessons learned about team building, or just about October, if any, there are going to be from this playoffs?
ALEX: I mean, the Dodgers are so unique in how they’re built that, like, there is not an inherent replicability to what they do. Obviously, the replicability is—
BOBBY: Cheating lab.
ALEX: —is cheating lab, is be like a global— is be owned by a global, like, finance firm that—
BOBBY: Hmm.
ALEX: —can spend money willy-nilly.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: Find more Steve Cohens, right? Like—
BOBBY: What about Rubenstein?
ALEX: Well, there you go. Orioles, where you at? I mean, I— I do think that, yes, there is an emulation, I think, that the league goes through from time to time. I do think we really saw it around the Cubs and the Astros. That felt like the sort of last major shift that you can sort of see philosophically across the league, where—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: —teams, all of a sudden, were like, “Hey, maybe there’s something to this, right? Maybe it’s okay to fall to the back of the pack.” Now, that’s kind of fallen out of favor with, like, the lottery, like the— with the draft lottery, like things— I think tanking I,s for that exact reason, like less appealing, you know? But I don’t necessarily think you’re gonna see a dozen teams, like, try and turn on a dime and say, “Ah, we gotta be—” you know, you look at yourself in the mirror and be like, “We gotta be more like the Dodgers.”
BOBBY: Yeah. There’s a reason you only see a few teams say stuff like that.
ALEX: Yeah, because there’s a code, frankly, that, like, you don’t say something like that.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: That the thing that is central to the Dodgers success, which is that they invest in not only the 26 men on the field at a given time, right? But they invest in player development. They in— invest in the— the resources that they’re giving to the players like— and there’s just— I mean, we know, it’s not a free market. The team— there are teams who just can’t do that because of the social contract that is you’re a small— you’re a small market, you’re a mid-market team. You don’t— you don’t do that. You don’t spend like that.
BOBBY: Yeah. You don’t drive up the price for all the other guys, basically.
ALEX: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: This is a Dodgers player and everyone else sits them out.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah. I guess, like, in terms of— if I had to choose one thing to answer my own question—
ALEX: Because I didn’t— because I said, “Well, nothing.”
BOBBY: If I had to choose one thing, what— what I would choose is, weirdly, in, like, a we’ve— in, like, a full circle moment, what I think was so hard to compete against with the Dodgers was, like, on base percentage, more or less, if I had to summarize it with one stat.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But really what it was is that the Dodgers didn’t give away any at-bats.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And what that is, is depth. Like that you have no— despite all the injuries that you have, and most of their injuries were concentrated on the pitching side and so this— it helped them that their lineup was basically healthy one through nine when it mattered most. Even though they faced injuries throughout the season and even though the guys were at various states of health and performance, because of those injuries throughout the season. When it mattered most in October, all of their best hitters were healthy and able to be in the lineup, for the most part. Ohtani, obviously, got hurt the last couple games. Freeman dealt with shit throughout the other two rounds, but whatever. Depth is hard. Depth costs money. Depth means player development at different levels. You— when you call guys up, they’re— they have valuable skills that even if they don’t turn into superstars. You know, you think of a guy like Muncey or Lux or some of these guys who are at the bottom of the Dodgers lineup, like those guys are not bad. Those guys are not automatic outs. Those guys can take walks. Those guys have a little pop in their bat. These are player development successes that allow you to build a lineup that doesn’t have Alex Verdugos in it, you know? And that’s the— that is the difference in the series, honestly. And, you know, they made a couple savvy trades. Tommy Edman turns into a guy who’s really big for them, but they also just, like, make no errors, you know? So what— what I would say that the lesson that teams would take from this is that stars and scrubs doesn’t actually work as well as we might have thought it did, and really, it’s like the totality of your roster, top to bottom that is repeatable when it comes to October. Yeah, you can catch fire. Yeah, you can be the Mets, sneak into the playoffs, make it to the NLCS, but— and I think that’s also one of the reasons that the Padres took a step forward this year, is that they were just like a deeper team—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —with fewer holes in the roster, fewer holes in the lineup, than they were before, and they looked better because of it, you know? So, obviously, it’s not like that insightful of a thing to share that ideally you’d have no bad players in your lineup, but like, I do think that there is a bit of— there was a sort of, like, three true outcomes driven mentality that, like, it didn’t matter necessarily if you had guys in your lineup who weren’t good hitters as long as you were able to, like, hit home runs in the playoffs, because the team that hits the most home runs usually wins. Because it’s hard to string hits together, and it’s even harder to string hits together in October when teams are using their best arms all the time. The Dodgers are maybe not the best example to cut against that because they also hit the most home runs too, but they also just like— in thinking about watching all of their series, like it was just pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure.
ALEX: Yeah, they made the Yankees pitching staff work.
BOBBY: And what is the best way to overcome the difference in— the changes in the pitching strategy that we’ve seen in the last 10 years? Which is, like, use your high leverage guys, pull the starter, you know, go to your best relievers early. The best way to overcome that is to make them throw a lot of pitches, is to draw out at-bats, is to force the opposing manager to put in a guy when he doesn’t want to, so that you’re seeing that guy for the third or fourth time in a series by the time the games become most important. And this team specifically was the best equipped to, I think, undo some of those, like, macro strategy trends that we’ve seen from, like, the opposing team pitching side that I’ve ever seen. Like, they— they just— there was no good way to beat them. And the Yankees pitched really well for most of the series, and it just didn’t matter.
ALEX: You want to know why it didn’t matter? Actually, I will tell you the— the lesson— or— or rather, the reason the Yankees lost this series.
BOBBY: Because Manfred rigged it?
ALEX: I— well, can I play a clip for you, Bobby?
BOBBY: Yeah. We need the soundboard.
ALEX: This comes from Laura Albanese, a sports writer over at your alumnus, Newsday.
BOBBY: Long Island’s newspaper, baby.
SPEAKER 3: [42:33] and they’re ready to go. [42:40] let’s go [42:42] Go, go, go [42:45] and it’s getting late. The bases are loaded. And the crowd’s fired up. [42:55] It’s a high fly ball and the crowd roars. It’s a three-run home run [43:00] and the Yankees are on their way. The ALCS Champions, what a great day.
ALEX: Are you familiar with that song, that band?
BOBBY: No, I couldn’t really hear it.
ALEX: That’s because it was AI.
BOBBY: Oh.
ALEX: So this is what the Yankees were playing over the loudspeakers before— let’s see, what was the 28th game? Four?
BOBBY: Four?
ALEX: Game three. So the Yankees are blasting over their loudspeakers the first game in Yankee Stadium, an AI-generated song.
BOBBY: About the Yankees?
ALEX: About the Yankees. Including some lyrics that you transcribed, “Steinbrenner is at the helm. They’re ready to bring it home. It’s getting late. The base is loaded. The crowd’s fired up. It’s a high fly ball. The crowd roars. It’s a three-run home run. ALCS Champions, today is a great day.”
BOBBY: Is that better or worse than the fact that the Yankees play New York, New York whether they win or lose?
ALEX: That’s a really good bit. I have to admit it. No, I— I—
BOBBY: Dude, the Dodgers are literally celebrating winning the World Series on the Yankees field, the Los Angeles Dodgers, and in the background of the Fox audio, you can hear New York, New York by Frank Sinatra playing as the Yankees fans are walking outside. Guys—
ALEX: I think it’s hilarious, first of all.
BOBBY: —read the room, read the room, read the room. Like, why would you want to hear that song if you’re a Yankee fan walking out? You— wouldn’t you want that song to be associated with, like, good memories, winning, not the lowest—
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
BOBBY: —point of your fandom?
ALEX: And, like, I— I guess you’re kind of— you’re you’re backed into a rock and a hard place—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
ALEX: —as I like to say.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: Because you don’t want to play like a pro LA song, right? Like—
BOBBY: If I had my brothers, right, I’d— I’d more rather pull it forward to the rock and a hard place. Like—
ALEX: Okay. Yeah. So, like. I guess it’s a— it’s a petty attempt—
BOBBY: Like you don’t have to play any— just don’t play a song.
ALEX: —to, like, troll them. You know? “Oh, we’re gonna play New York, New York while you’re celebrating.” It’s like, “All right, we’re gonna celebrate on your fucking field.” Like, what— I don’t think the Dodgers care, but certainly—
BOBBY: They play it after every game, whether it’s the World Series or not.
ALEX: Right. No.
BOBBY: They just play it.
ALEX: Exactly. Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s extreme loser shit.
ALEX: It is.
BOBBY: Everybody gets a trophy, bro.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That should only play if the team wins.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Frank Sinatra didn’t die for this.
ALEX: Yeah. The A’s aren’t playing Celebration by Kool & The Gang, after they lose, like, seven to two against the Pirates in July.
BOBBY: Start spreading the news, the Yankees who have fucking dog walked by the Dodgers in the World Series.
ALEX: It made a lot of Yankees fans mad, so I— I— I respect it, at the very least.
BOBBY: How do you think Capobianco feels about it?
[laughter]
ALEX: I— he wouldn’t know because he couldn’t get to stay at the end of the games.
BOBBY: All right. Any other observations about the World Series?
ALEX: I— no, not really. What do you— what do you think of the broadcasts, generally?
BOBBY: They were fine.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Smoltz is getting worse. Yeah, he’s getting worse over the years.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: He does this thing where he’s like, “You’re never gonna believe this, but”— and then he says something that’s, like, so normal, where he’s like, “I know this might sound crazy, but you got to be careful with Mookie Betts here.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It’s like, “What are you doing?”
ALEX: I know this might sound crazy, but the key for the Yankees is going to be stringing together hits, just getting the bat on the ball.
BOBBY: Joe Davis had a few— a few, like, kind of iconic moments, after game one was a really iconic moment.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: His call when they won it was fine. He’s a really good announcer.
ALEX: He is. I’m glad he got to call this—
BOBBY: Me, too.
ALEX: —for the Dodgers.
BOBBY: Good for him.
ALEX: Cool experience for him.
BOBBY: So for our purposes, for the— for the podcast heading forward, this was our World Series reaction. On Monday during our normal slot, we’re gonna do an episode, just kind of a retrospective on the whole season, more or less. Like, what was the predominance storyline of this season? What did we enjoy about this year? Just kind of saying goodbye to the 2024 baseball season on the field. The following week on the 11th, we will be doing Dumbest Things of 2024 with our friends at Batting Around. This is now the third year, I believe, that we’re doing this, third annual Dumbest Things of the year. It’s one of my favorite episodes to do. If you haven’t listened to the last two, go back and check those out. They always happen right after the season ends. They’re some of my favorite episodes that we’ve ever made. Essentially, we get together and we talk about silliest things that happened all year with our pals. And it’s— it’s a real fun walk down memory lane.
ALEX: It’s a rump.
BOBBY: And then over on the Patreon feed, we’ll be doing an expanded version of that, so some extra couple rounds of it. We have some fun stuff. We have some really fun stuff planned for this offseason, so I don’t have to tell any of you listening to this, this late in the podcast, but as you know, the less baseball there is, the more fun Tipping Pitches can be. The higher the ceiling on the Tipping Pitches episode. So as this long, cold winter begins, keep in mind, we’re going to be churning out some really good stuff for you. We have some great guests in the hopper for this offseason. We have some fun series planned, a themed month, a book club on the Patreon feed. Really just a lot of irons in the fire. If you want to help us out with the content sharing this offseason, the phone number to call in is 785-422-5881. The email account, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. Gmail, where you can go and have an AI assistant ask you a lot of questions about your spreadsheets and your emails. Not actually do anything that you need them to do. They’re just going to be there in the sidebar. Just— there’s no way to shut it off. Just— you can’t shut it off. Believe me, I’ve tried. I’ve sent a lot of feedback to the Google Corporation, to Alphabet Inc. I’ve said, “This is unnecessary. Please take it away.”
ALEX: Right. And you do this as a shareholder too, like they should be taking your opinion into account.
BOBBY: Only one of us has purchased stock in tech companies, and it’s not me.
ALEX: That’s true.
BOBBY: Speaking of stock that you’ve purchased in tech companies, you can find us on X, the everything app, tipping_pitches. That’s where you do most of your banking, and that’s where we’ll be taking your offseason questions. Any other parting thoughts? Congrats to your mom, one of the biggest Dodgers fans I know.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: They did it.
ALEX: They did it. They did the damn thing.
BOBBY: Randy Newman, I love LA, baby. Play us out.
ALEX: No, let’s get out of here.
BOBBY: Yeah, we gotta go feed Stevie. She’s the second biggest Dodgers fan I know, and she’s getting riled up over here. She was pumped when they won it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We’ll be back in just a few days.
SPEAKER 4: Everybody’s very happy, ’cause the sun is shining all the time. Looks like another perfect day. I love LA.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
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