Bobby and Alex chat about the Chrysler Building, discuss the All-Star Game and an underwhelming home run derby, and parse a few (typically horrible) Rob Manfred quotes. Then, they’re joined by friend of the show Kyle Bandujo to talk about his new book, “Movies with Balls: The Greatest Sports Films of All Time Analyzed and Illustrated.” Finally, they finish with an infrastructure-centered rankin segment.
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Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t tipping his pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
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BOBBY: Alex, I’d like to start this episode by reading you the latest push notification that I just got right here on my cellular device. Sometimes when I don’t have a cold open, you know, I just— I go to the news, the mainstream media, see what’s going on.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Maybe I’m outing myself by doing this, but it’s from the New York Times. We’re recording this on Wednesday, July 17th. We are banking this episode because both of us have travel this upcoming weekend. Later in the podcast, you’re gonna hear an interview with friend of the podcast, Kyle Bandujo where we talk about his new book, but also just we talk about sports movies and how sports movies— how our relationship to sports has broken our brain, has made it in some ways impossible, but in some ways extra rewarding to watch sports movies. Really fun chat with Kyle. Can’t wait for you guys to hear it. But first, you have to hear me read this push notification, this five-day old push notification from New York Times. On Wednesday, July 17th, just a reminder for everybody, Wednesday, July 17th, here we go. The New York Times wants to let us know that the Chrysler Building is crumbling. With the crumbling interior and faltering ownership, a jewel of New York skyline is losing its luster. Can it remain an icon? That’s what the New York Times is concerned about today. Nothing else. No greater, grander plan that we have to worry about. The Chrysler Building is crumbling. What will we do?
ALEX: I just want to say I’ve— I’ve long been on the record as saying the Chrysler Building lost its luster years ago. I’ve been out on the Chrysler Building since the day I set foot in New York. So the New York Times is— I’m glad to see that they’re catching up. I feel— are we— have we reached the— the, like, end of buildings? What I mean by that is like— like the marquee building that, like, defines a skyline.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
ALEX: That defines a city, because, like, now, everyone just builds a fucking skyscraper, right? It’s like every six months, Dubai has built the world’s tallest skyscraper, beating out the last skyscraper it built.
BOBBY: I do feel like the answer to your question is yes, but not only because we don’t want to build things anymore, which is definitely true. Like, we just don’t build anything anymore at all. Infrastructure— remember infrastructure week? Came and went. But because things that get built now are just immediately derided as corny and capitalist, because they usually are. Like, if you think about the last few buildings that are interesting tourist attractions at the level of the Chrysler Building, it’s, what, like the hive, whatever that is. What’s that for? I walked past that the other day because I was showing my friend, I was— we were walking along the Hudson. My friend was in town visiting. We walked past the hive, and he was like, “Oh, I’ve seen this on Instagram.” It was closed. You couldn’t even walk on it.
ALEX: Why— why is that, by the way?
BOBBY: I don’t know. Was it— is there something that I don’t know about?
ALEX: Oh, well— well, for a while there, it had a— it had a [3:30] reputation going for it.
BOBBY: Oh. Oh.
ALEX: Which if you went to NY, it’s— and if you know, you know, but—
BOBBY: That’s news to me.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: I guess that makes sense.
ALEX: Yeah. People are— people are creative.
BOBBY: But, like, I think the rest of the world, they’re still building stuff. They’re still making cool buildings. You know, there’s new skyscrapers that are defining to skylines. You know, like you were— when you went to London, The Shard. It’s a very noticeable building.
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah, it’s noticeable. That’s for sure.
BOBBY: Are you out on The Shard, anti-Shard?
ALEX: Yeah. Well, like, what’s the— I don’t know. Do you want to— do you want to do just like— I— we have an episode with Kyle, but we can save that and do an hour of, like, architecture talk, you know? And how everything that’s modern today is just flattened down cheaper versions of— of stuff we used to dream about decades ago, right? It’s like, no one’s— no one— no one’s creative with their ideas anymore, right? It’s like, how can we make the most impactful thing for the least amount of money using the cheapest materials possible—
BOBBY: Yes. Yes.
ALEX: —that can get tourists to come here?
BOBBY: We need to recommit to timelessness, need to recommit to iconography. You’re— you’re— I mean, we’re kind of like joking. Part of this is being said tongue in cheek, but this— you actually studied this in college, kind of, urban studies.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: City Planning.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Freeways.
BOBBY: Name something that has been planned about a city in the time that you’ve lived in it. Like, name something that was, like, an intentional thing that they did, that they made, that benefited you, that wasn’t already there when you got there.
ALEX: Oh, that— that benefited me?
BOBBY: Like, name one thing. Name a thing.
ALEX: Well, getting rid of congestion pricing, honestly. That’s one good thing that they did, right? Because—
BOBBY: It never happened, though, so they didn’t get rid of it. They scuttled it. How about that for an only—
ALEX: There you go.
BOBBY: —only in journalism world word. You can’t do it because there isn’t one.
ALEX: Yeah, not really. Williamsburg, L train, they put some work into that.
BOBBY: [5:42] that they fixed it, you’re saying?
ALEX: Yes. I mean, the bar is really low, right? It’s like they’re fixing things that are broken that should be working, and most of the time, they don’t do that.
BOBBY: Did— was the L train ever like a gigantic problem for you? When we lived in Bushwick, it worked most of the time. I didn’t get the sense that it was like this nightmare train that was gonna strand you in the middle of Brooklyn all the time. Like, people talked about it. Like, the reputation that it had. It certainly wasn’t the G train, is what I’ll say. Where it’s like next train coming in five minutes, actually, it came 37 minutes later.
ALEX: I think that’s cool. I think it gives you time to just collect your thoughts, you know? It’s like the subways— the rest of the city’s like, go, go, go, and the G train is like take a breath.
BOBBY: Ground yourself.
ALEX: Smell the roses and pee. I don’t know. Do you have a piece of infrastructure that sticks out in your mind?
BOBBY: No. I’m [6:39]
ALEX: Again, I’m— free— I know you’re— I know you’re a big freeway guy.
BOBBY: Yes. They did rebuild the Goethals Bridge, but again, that’s not like a new thing. It was just a bridge that was there and then they built a better version of it. It wasn’t like, “There’s this need for another bridge. Let’s build another bridge.” They haven’t done that. They won’t do that. Maybe— maybe when I-95 caught on fire and collapsed, and they got that thing back up and running in, like, a month, three weeks. Remember that?
ALEX: Right. But what—
BOBBY: Those were the good days, man.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Those were the good days, when it was like, “Yeah, this oil tanker drove right under the freeway and then caught itself on fire. Lot of questions there.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Little suspicious.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Little suspicious that things keep exploding, keep burning. Yeah, and it’s damaging to the infrastructure around it.
BOBBY: True.
ALEX: Someone should look into that.
BOBBY: I haven’t been to the new LaGuardia. I hear it’s nice. Maybe that would qualify.
ALEX: The new LaGuardia is really nice, except everywhere is carpeted, which actually fucking sucks. So take like a little rolly bag down.
BOBBY: Oh, man. It’s so hard for you.
ALEX: It is hard. Me with all my— all my business travel that I do.
BOBBY: Right. Well, when you fly— when A-Rod flies private into New York, he lands in LaGuardia.
ALEX: Do you think or does he like—
BOBBY: He’s a man— he’s a man of the people. He wouldn’t land in Teterboro and take— take a helicopter. He definitely would do that.
ALEX: I’ll keep thinking on it. I will. There is a good piece of infrastructure out there.
BOBBY: It’s not coming to mind.
ALEX: That— that came about. They’ve been building out a lot of bike lanes in New York. I don’t bike, so I don’t benefit from them, but I see them being built.
BOBBY: But New York City is, like, the worst city— the worst major city to bike in in America, possibly the world.
ALEX: Well, I mean, yeah, because there are no bike lanes.
BOBBY: Yeah, but I get the sense that even the bike lanes that they build are not respected. Like, most of the time—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —when I see people talk about bike lanes, it’s like, “Here’s a cop that’s parked perpendicular in the bike lane.” I’m not saying that they shouldn’t build more bike lanes. Bike people, don’t come for me. I’m just saying, I— I’m trying to— trying to relate to your struggle here. When I lived in LA, they kept talking about how they were going to build a train to— to LAX. Why don’t you let me know when they actually get that one up and running?
ALEX: Well, you know what? If the goddamn liberals hadn’t scared Elon Musk out of California, maybe we’d have that by now.
BOBBY: Right. Because there’s all the— all the tubes are working in Texas where he moved to.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: As we know, you can’t go— you can’t go a mile in Texas without coming across one of his tubes. His tubes. What are they called?
ALEX: What? Like, the— the, like, loop? Like the Hyperloop?
BOBBY: Yeah, that’s what it’s called. It’s a tube, right?
ALEX: I— I think so. I don’t know. It’s not anything, because he never made it.
BOBBY: Right, exactly.
ALEX: It’s— you know what it is? It’s a rendering. Like so many other things in this world.
BOBBY: Look at you. You brought it back to baseball. Thank you for that, because I was going to start talking about the Shweeb and Henry—
ALEX: Because we were— right.
BOBBY: —Henry Ness, remember that?
ALEX: Yes, I do.
BOBBY: That’s a deep cut for you. Nobody listening will know what that’s about, but this one’s for us. All right. Well, we have— we have our chat with Kyle coming up later, but we’re going to talk about what has happened up to this point, the All-Star break, and some observations from that, some Rob Manfred quotes, another banger. Rob keeps coming through with these quotes that everybody just really likes, and just keep saying how much they love MLB because of them. In big spots, Rob is always there with a quote for us. And then, of course, we’re going to close out with our ranking segment. But before we do, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I’m Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: Alex, no— no new patrons this week. I’m just going to chalk it up to the fact that we’re recording five days early, so there’s going to be, like, so many new patrons next week, so many. Dozens, hundreds maybe, of new patrons next week.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: But that’s next week. This is this week, where before we start talking about Rob Manfred’s quotes and your feelings about the Home Run Derby, and about how neither of us watched the all-star game. We must talk about the Tipping Pitches meetup in Brooklyn, New York, which is six days away from publish of this episode, Saturday, July 27th in Brooklyn, New York, 6:00 Pm Cyclones versus the Rome Emperors. Link in the description. It’s a special link that purchases you tickets in the same section as us and all of the other folks who are attending. We got an email from someone asking about how there are, like, several rows available and which row to choose. They— I think they just, like, reserve the whole section and then as— as it fills up, or as it gets closer to the event, maybe they don’t— maybe they take some of those rows away if no one has bought tickets in those sections. But it doesn’t matter what row you buy in those sections. Just buy your ticket, whatever row you feel like buying. I imagine it will be pretty easy to move around, and— and for everybody to be clumped together on the night of the game. Please purchase those tickets. We’re excited for it. We’re looking forward to shooting Alex out of that, like, slingshot ride after the game. You know—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —the one that, like, shoots you up into the air, like, with the bungee cords, and then you spin around a bunch of times. Really looking forward to doing that.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And for everybody coming over and watching that. And then August 17th, which is also a Saturday, Chicago Cubs hosting the Toronto Blue Jays. Last week when we were just guessing that it’s at 1:40, it’s actually at 1:20. But, you know, that was pretty close. I was pretty close.
ALEX: You had a very good shot at— at it being 1:40.
BOBBY: Or it could be like 1:07, you know? Sometimes they have weird start times to games. But it was 1:20, so not that weird. That will not be like a special link that buys you tickets in the section. You will have to express your interest via the Google form that is linked in the description. And once we have an idea of how many people will be able to attend for this, we will do like a group— group purchase, and we will let people know how they can actually acquire those tickets from us and how much money they end up being. So if you are interested in that, really only if you’re interested in coming like in— like with a high likelihood, fill that out, and let us know how many tickets you want. And if, for whatever reason, like, a couple weeks out from that event, you decide, “Oh, I can come. I want to come.” Just reach out to us via email and we can see if we can add tickets to that package as it gets closer. So those two links in the description, the Brooklyn meetup as well as the Chicago meetup. Kind of feel like I’m just talking about that all— all the time. Like, every pod is like a really elaborate way to avoid talking about politics up top, and then seven straight minutes of me talking about links.
ALEX: Hey, look, that’s your choice. Not mine, man. You were the one who had non-eventful weekend.
BOBBY: That is true. I ate that night for dinner— I— I realized— when I listened back to make sure that there was no mistakes in the edit, I realized that I— I failed to mention what I ate for dinner that night, and that’s on me. We need to have more accountability if I’m gonna do a Saturday diary where I talk about every single thing that I do, one thing I need to do is be specific. The relatability is in the specificity. That’s what we say.
ALEX: Well, and I— and I’ll take some blame for that as well, right? I mean, that’s what I’m here for, is to kind of—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —follow up, follow up, fact check, you know, ask—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —ask the questions that the people are wondering.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And so, I mean, consider this our mea culpa to the listeners.
BOBBY: Yeah. Yeah.
ALEX: It will not happen again.
BOBBY: It won’t.
ALEX: But frankly, we’re— we’re embarrassed and ashamed.
BOBBY: Egg on face. It was chicken, artichokes and mushrooms with a white wine sauce served over penne.
ALEX: Wow.
BOBBY: Yeah. It’s a Wa— it’s a Wagner family staple, one of my fave childhood meals. When—
ALEX: And I’ve never had it.
BOBBY: Whenever they ask me what I want when I go there, I always say that, because I’m never going to make that for myself. I could. It wouldn’t be that much work, but it’s just one of those things. It’s like, I’m not gonna buy all those ingredients. I think it’s five ingredients.
ALEX: It’s not like that many ingredients.
BOBBY: It’s not, it’s not, it’s not. Maybe I’ll make it next time we have dinner together.
ALEX: All right, prove it.
BOBBY: I will. Okay. Do you want to talk about All-Star Week?
ALEX: Yeah. We might as well. We created a game around it.
BOBBY: We did. Did you play the game? Because me, what happened was— now, let me talk about accountability here.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Like a month ago, a friend, a mutual friend of ours, asked me if I wanted to go see a movie on this day, and I didn’t know that that was when the all-star game was, because I wasn’t thinking that hard advance.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And I said yes to it. Tickets nonrefundable. It’s just a business decision. Had to go to the movie.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And the movie was, of course, Seven Samurai, Akira Kurosawa’s 1954 masterpiece, about seven samurai protecting a village from bandits. And it does happen to be three hours and 30 minutes, and it had a full intermission, had a full 15-minute intermission, so that— that’ll take up the whole game, especially now with the pitch clock. Caught some highlights, though, you know? Shohei Ohtani, pretty good. We knew that.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Corbin Burnes, pretty good. Then he pieced, that was cool.
ALEX: Yep. Mason Miller?
BOBBY: He— yeah, he was a standout. He’s a special talent.
ALEX: Yeah, the video of him striking out Ohtani is electrifying. Do you know— did you see? Did your boy hit triple digits?
BOBBY: I didn’t check. What were you doing?
ALEX: ‘Cause I—
BOBBY: Huh?
ALEX: I— well, I— I missed a good portion of the game as well. I saw the first— the first part of it, and then I had a— a prior obligation, but it’s okay, because I was wasted, because they just kept showing Livvy Dunne.
BOBBY: Oh, yeah. And the [17:09]
ALEX: So it’s fine. I didn’t— so I didn’t— I don’t even know how the game ended.
BOBBY: So anyone playing didn’t watch the game then, as far as we’re concerned. You wanna talk about the Home Run Derby?
ALEX: Sure. Yeah.
BOBBY: It was kind of mid.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Good final round. The rest of it was a little bit of a letdown. I felt as though the Home Run Derby broadcast was lackluster. They couldn’t quite figure out the camera angle. Maybe it has to do with the fact that that Texas Stadium is weird-looking on TV. I did like the fact that they were— that they seem to be relying pretty heavily on that low angle shot from behind home plate, but slightly off up to the opposite side of the batter’s handedness. So you can see the angle that it’s launching out to their pull side. They started doing a lot with Alec Bohm as he was taking off in the first round, and then they went back to it a lot throughout the broadcast. That was a nice little— nice little innovation, but the rest—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —of the Home Run Derby a lot of— a lot of underperformance from the participants and just an overall lack of excitement from the broadcast. And that’s supposed to be the event where everybody’s getting weird and— and wonky. You know, that’s the Chris Berman back, back, back, back from our childhood, and it’s just kind of lacking that sauce. And I realize at this point, this is like almost a week ago for people, so, you know, we’re probably belaboring a little bit more, and everybody’s probably already moved on from their feelings about these two events. But to get on the record, we gotta spice it up a little bit. We gotta—we need a new innovation in terms of the broadcast. Stop changing the fucking rules and maybe they can figure it out.
ALEX: Well, that’s what I’m saying, man. Also pretty funny that Rob Manfred was like, “Yeah, maybe we will change the All-Star game jerseys next year.” I’m like, “This man cannot sit still.” He can’t stand behind a single decision that he’s made, and frankly, I salute him for that. That is— that’s me.
BOBBY: Well, he can stand behind some decisions. It’s just not the decisions that we want.
ALEX: Yeah, there you go.
BOBBY: Rob Manfred before the game, he had a press conference. He was asked about awarding— I’ll just read Chelsea— Chelsea’s tweet. Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post, who, by the way, probably someone that we should have on this podcast. I was thinking about this last week. She seems to be at the forefront of coverage of a lot of things that we talk about. So Chelsea, if you’re listening—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —come on Tipping Pitches. Chelsea said, “Rob Manfred on awarding a coveted jewel event to the one franchise that doesn’t hold a Pride Night, and whether he considered that when deciding to give this one to Texas.” Quote, “Look, there are— there are a whole lot of factors—” any Rob Manfred quote has to start out with “Look,” and then an immediate equivocation, and then the thing. All of them do, it’s this unbelievable pattern. I don’t mean to, like, derail us before we— I even read the quote, but they all-start that way.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “Look, there are a whole lot of factors that go into deciding who’s going to get an all-star game. I don’t view whether you hold a Pride Night or not as an outcome, determinant issue. Of course, it’s an issue. We look at all those issues, try to make a decision, give it to the place that we think is going to be the best. And it’s really important here to remember there’s a massive public investment in terms of creating a great new facility. And honestly, that’s an important consideration in terms of awarding all-star games.” That’s lawyer’s speak for, “We gave it to them because they built a new stadium with public funds.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah. That’s him saying, “We regret what we did in Atlanta a few years ago, and are not interested in stirring up that controversy again.”
BOBBY: Why did he say this? This is like— again, remember like— remember, like, a month ago, I don’t remember what— what it was we were talking about, but you and I basically said something to the effect of, “It’s becoming hard to— to do this podcast, because how Craven, [21:23] some of the owners and Rob behave has sort of made it impossible to parody us.” If you go back to the stuff that we were saying about these people three years ago, it’s basically the stuff that they’re saying about themselves now. We’re getting lapped by them. We— because we can’t even make fun of them, because we would make jokes. We may— we have made jokes on this podcast about how they give the Rangers the all-star game to award them for building a new stadium that, by the way, looks kind of bad, maybe wasn’t really needed. I don’t know. I’m— I’m not an expert on what the Texas— what the Ranger Stadium was before this. But, like, just takes a bunch of money from places that it could probably be used better. And by the way, then you add in the factor of him being specifically asked about the Pride Night and saying, “That’s not—” what did he say? “That’s not an outcome-determinant issue,” that I can’t parse. I don’t know what the fuck he’s saying with that.
ALEX: No. I mean, that’s what that is, quite literally, lawyer speak.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Makes me wonder what is an outcome-determinant issue, Rob.
BOBBY: Do you think he has it in like a Google doc somewhere? Outcome-determinant issues, non-outcome-determinant issues. Do you want to take a stab at what he thinks is outcome-determinant issues?
ALEX: I mean, I think that list is really slim these days in terms of what’s within the realm of possibility for teams to do. He’s expressed regret over removing the all-star game from Atlanta, and clearly has no qualms about this, right? He says it’s an issue, but it’s not becoming an outcome-determinant issue, right? So he’s making that distinction there. I— I struggled to see what else a team could do that. Like, if Ray Davis was caught on the [bleep] you know? Like—
BOBBY: That joke’s coming out of the pod. It probably cuts the other way, though, honestly. The outcome-determinant issues are if owners do things that are in the interest of fans and not in the interest of the league. So, like, I think an outcome-determinant issue is Steve Cohen— Steve Cohen blowing through the luxury tax every year and sticking his middle finger to the other owners. I think that would prevent the Mets from getting another all-star game, unless he stopped doing that. Now, the Mets’ turn is not up, so we won’t have to face this issue. They had the all-star game in 2014? ’13. 2013. Of course, the year that Matt Harvey debuted.
ALEX: I don’t know if I entirely agree. I mean, to your point, we wouldn’t— it’s— it’s hard to say right now, but like, it would be very obvious if the Mets were just being passed over, I think, for an all-star game repeatedly, just because of who their owner is. And it’s also the kind of game that you can’t really play for very long, because, like, eventually, they’re going to get one, right? Like, are you waiting for Steve to croak? Like—
BOBBY: Maybe—
ALEX: —what is the— maybe, is that the outcome-determinant, like, issue, whatever? Like—
BOBBY: Yeah. I don’t know.
ALEX: If he got— if he got— if he got his casino up there, I think it become— it becomes another destination.
BOBBY: If Steve Cohen came out and said, “I stand behind the MLBPA, what we’ve been doing is wrong.” That would prevent them from getting the all-star game. It also might prevent him from living for much longer, but that’s a different issue entirely.
ALEX: Wow. Okay. I mean, the A’s aren’t getting one, right? The A’s have— have not gotten one.
BOBBY: Well, they don’t have a stadium. How would they get one? Last time they hosted, it was 1987. That’s actually crazy.
ALEX: So outcome-determinant, if your owner wines enough that the stadium sucks. All right, fine. We won’t host any jewel events there.
BOBBY: So you just— you just have to straight up build a new stadium to get one, then?
ALEX: Yes, I think so.
BOBBY: When was the last time— the White Sox haven’t had—
ALEX: I mean, it is like a— it’s like a you, “Scratch your back, I’ll— you scratch my back, I’ll scratch— we’ll scratch our own backs,” is separately and [25:36]
BOBBY: But how is building a stadium scratching the commissioner’s office— how— their back? Jesus.
ALEX: I mean, I think it’s the—
BOBBY: Next year, it’s in Atlanta, and the year after that, it’s in Philadelphia. All right, I’m tapping out from the pod until 2020— 2027.
ALEX: I mean, I— I think that’s the kind of thing that the league likes to see, because it’s another feather in the cap of, you know, being a real heavyweight sports league, right? You get a nice stadium, and it’s a—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: It looks good for— for the franchise, but also for the league, if you can actually get it done. Now, if it takes 15 years and you have to go through, like, seven different cities to make it happen, ah, it may not look so good at the end of that.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: But if you can— if a team says, “We’ve got the money. The— it’s— it’s in the taxpayer’s pockets right over there. We have it earmarked. We’re going to get the stadium built with it.” I think that the league loves to see that sort of thing. Yes, this is efficiency. This is how modern sports work. Public-private partnerships.
BOBBY: The cities that have had it multiple times since Oakland last had it, are Arlington, Cincinnati, New York, but that doesn’t really count, because it’s been both teams in New York.
ALEX: Is that it?
BOBBY: Anaheim. This is so random. I just— and Chicago, the White Sox. The Chicago has had it three times, but two White Sox, one Cubs. I’m trying to think of it—
ALEX: Fascinating.
BOBBY: —as like any— any pattern there. There is sort of like an affinity for small markets, in a way. Oh, Seattle has had it twice too, since then.
ALEX: All right. What— what are the small markets, like Arlington?
BOBBY: Well, Cincinnati, I guess.
ALEX: Oh, Cincinnati, right.
BOBBY: Well, I guess Anaheim is not a small market.
ALEX: Eh, that’s an MLB small market.
BOBBY: San Diego has had it twice since then, too.
ALEX: That’s a good idea. If we did it in San Diego every year, I would actually be all right with that.
BOBBY: I kind of agree. I kind of think we should just pick a spot to do it every year.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: They should erect a new stadium. Talk about public-private partnerships. Let’s build a whole stadium—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —just to play one baseball game a year in it.
ALEX: Look, that’s infrastructure, baby. That’s what we do. We used to do things in this country.
BOBBY: Where do you think that Morgan Sword is going to give it to when he steps into the shoes? Probably Oakland, right?
ALEX: Right. Well, he is, in theory, going to enter office around the time that the A’s stadium is supposed to, allegedly be maybe opening, potentially.
BOBBY: Uh-huh. Is that real? Do they have a date, a launch date?
ALEX: I— I think it’s— I think they’re looking at like 2027, 2028, you know, as maybe like a stretch goal.
BOBBY: Okay. So— so it doesn’t have a location in 2027 yet, or 2028, only through— the next two years. I think they should give it to the team that wins the World Series. If you want to host the all-star game, prove it.
ALEX: Play better.
BOBBY: Poor— poor Rockies fans. Maybe— actually, let me cut the other way entirely. I think we should host in Denver every year. Remember the Home Run Derby there? That was so fun.
ALEX: Yeah, that was sick. I— I agree. I think if you win the World Series, you get to host the all-star game, and the winner of the all-star game, once again, determines home field advantage. Like I want all this shit tied up. I don’t want teams to be able to make any distinctions between all this. All this matters. It’s all baseball, sorry. One baseball. You wanted it, you got it. I think the all-star game MVP, if they’re still under team control, should get a whole year of team control instead of getting money. Like, they should— their service time clock should add a year onto it.
ALEX: Oh, okay. I was like—
BOBBY: So they hit free agency a year earlier.
ALEX: That’s— hell yeah, man.
BOBBY: You want these guys to come play? Put a real incentive on the table. All right.
ALEX: These are outcome-determinant issues for Rob ever coming on the pod, I’m just saying.
BOBBY: I’m open to hearing his— his reasoning behind all these things. We have to reach across the aisle in these trying times.
ALEX: I agree. Should we get to our conversation with Kyle?
BOBBY: We should. All right. Now, we’re gonna go to our conversation with Kyle Bandujo.
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BOBBY: All right, we are joined by long-time, good friend of the podcast, Kyle Bandujo. Kyle is the host of Big Screen Sports, a podcast about sports movies born from the idea that it is a sacred genre that we must protect. However, the people who are in charge of it, often don’t know what the hell they’re doing. And now, the author of Movies with Balls: The Greatest Sports Film Of All Time, Analyzed and Illustrated. Kyle, my first question for you is, did they hold a gun to your head and force you to do the colon secondary title, like they do with every single person’s book these days?
KYLE: So the funny thing is, like, I actually didn’t. My illustrator— the illustrator of the book, Rick, he was the one who came up with the title. The original title was the Greatest Games Never Played, and then the— the colon was like— we need to— it was truly— like, I didn’t hate it because we needed to explain in some form or fashion that this isn’t like movies with testosterone for like—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —for, like, the— for the bros. So I don’t hate it, but yeah, it is. I was, like, looking at— because I was looking at other books and— and— and similar things, especially when you’re trying to get this sold. And I was like, “Yeah, this seems to be a trend. Like, no book is just titled the title. It’s like there’s always got to be an explainer, colon.”
BOBBY: That’s what I’m saying, for every individual case, just like yours, like, this is a great title, we need the colon. But now, we look back on the last five years of books, and it’s like every single book has a colon and it has— well, it’s obviously for the internet and SEO. We know how these things work, right? So you’re not appealing to necessarily the Barnes & Noble or local independent bookstore shop, or who sees the spine in the short title that catches their attention. You’re appear— you’re appealing to someone who’s going into Google, punching that bad boy into Google, or Bing.
KYLE: Yeah. Yeah, I—
BOBBY: Or X, the everything app, you know?
KYLE: Yeah, it’s— life is SEO at this point. It’s— it’s all it is.
ALEX: I— I know we’re going to get into the book a little bit more, and we’re going to talk sort of abstractly about just kind of your— we’ve— when we’ve had you on before, it’s mostly been to sort of talk about specific movies, I think, and we have— have not really delved into sort of the— the art and the craft of hosting a sports movie podcast. But kind of how long has this idea been percolating for? Because you’ve been doing Big Screen Sports for— for years now. You have this wealth of— of knowledge. So at what point where you’re kind of like, “You know, I think there’s enough here to actually, like, go long on something.”?
KYLE: So I had wanted to do some sort of, like, sports movie book, or big— something about sports movies in written— written form for a very— for a long time. And I had thought like, “What would a cool, like, maybe an anthology book where I talked to someone who made a specific, you know, sports movie or some of my favorites?” Or something like that. And I had done a couple random proposals, but never, like, really flesh anything out honestly. And then I got a DM on Twitter, which is normally where— where great things happen—
BOBBY: That’s right.
KYLE: —from— from this guy, Rick, who is now my— my creative partner, who is— he’s an ad guy, he’s a graphic designer. And he had come up with the designs for the tickets. He was just in his spare time, was like, “What were the tickets from— what would the ticket from, like, Rocky’s fight in Russia look like? What would the ticket from Rod Kimball’s jump in Hot Rod look like?” Like, things like that. And he was like, “I think this would make a great coffee table book. I would— you know, I don’t write. I would need a writer. Would you be interested in doing this?” And I was like, “Absolutely.” And initially, the idea was just like a book of solely of these tickets, and me like writing a blurb about the ticket or the movie. And it became something— as we flesh it out, it became something a lot bigger. The initial idea was writing these fictionally as if they had actually happened, and like we were reaching— like looking at them from a historical perspective, talking to people who were— who were— talking to people who were at Nuke LaLoosh’s debut game, or who were at the Rocky fight in Russia, and things like that.
BOBBY: Nuke LaLoosh’s debut game, which took five hours and 48 minutes, because he walked 30 people and threw 280 pitches.
KYLE: I— yeah. I have— I have the estimate. I think— yeah, I talked to Shelton, and it was like he— I think he estimated, like, north of 200. But— so that was the initial idea. That’s what it was sold as. And that’s what I will say, like, I wrote about half a books’ worth. And then legally, we found out we were going to run into some trouble, if— if— if that was the direction. And so, I— I guess, like, to answer your question, it was like two and a half years this— this thing has been in the works, but the— the— what we ended up doing, which is generally a celebration of these movies, breaking down why we love them, but analyzing them, asking some— some very important questions. You know, did White Good Men have bad lawyers? Is the brother-in-law from— from Field of Dreams, like very wrongfully accused as a bad guy? You know, that was probably like a year, year and a half in the works and, like, thinking about these— these movies in that way. And really asking like, why do we— why do we love these movies and, like, come back to them? Because not all of them in the book are, like, universally beloved and— but their— their genre that I know, the three of us have talked about extensively of, like, movies that we just can’t help but always go back to.
BOBBY: Yeah, well, that kind of brings me to the starting point of the conversation that we wanted to have with you. It’s been a minute since we chatted. I think last time you were on this pod, we talked about documentaries that we would love to see get made. But as somebody who watches essentially every sports movie that is made or has been made, like that’s sort of your project at this point, right? With Big Screen Sports. And even movies that are not necessarily sports movies would follow that very recognizable sports movie structural pattern, narratively. It occurs to me that, like, people like us have sort of ruined our brains, and I think a lot of people watching these movies— a lot of people listening to this podcast and huge sports fans sometimes struggle to enjoy sports movies more than the average moviegoer because they know too much. So, like, my guy, has that happened for you? Like, did— you just— do you think that you can’t even objectively judge a sports movie anymore at this point because at— you’ve— you have so many things to draw from and compare them to?
KYLE: So I will say, I think I went all the way one direction of I wasn’t enjoying movies as much because I was watching them, like, critically and, like, thinking about they— did they get the sports right or whatever? And honestly, I— I’m kind of processing this now, but it might have been— I don’t know if you guys remember. You guys came on my podcast and we did Moneyball, which is a movie that all of us like, but we spent the first 30 minutes of the podcast, we said, “We’re going to talk about everything this gets wrong.”
BOBBY: Yes.
KYLE: And then we’re just gonna— and we’re gonna flush it, and then we’re gonna talk about, like, why we— why we love this movie, and why this works. And I think I’ve— for most movies, I think I have gone to that, of, like, I can get over some— they’re like— I— I’ve been able to, like— it’s fun to point out and— and say like, “Oh, this doesn’t work.” They’re, like, forgivable sins. Like, I think you— it— it depends on the movie. You have to kind of, like, ride the tone of the movie. Like a movie like Major League where the baseball is actually pretty good, but obviously, there are things like, you know, you can’t— you know, you can’t bust a guy out of jail and have him come to spring training. Or a movie that’s— that’s, like, comedic and tone can get away with a lot more than something that’s— a movie that is self-serious and wants you to take it seriously. Like this is where I’ll say, like, Trouble with the Curve, just can’t get away with anything, because it wants you to think that is this super serious baseball movie. That’s where you can still have problems. But, like, if the sum of the parts are greater than one person in the movie who’s not a good athlete. Like Wesley Snipes is not a good athlete, and yet in— in— but he gives good like—
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
KYLE: —good to great performances in Major League and White Man Can’t Jump. Tim Robbins cannot throw a baseball, like famously threw his arm out like early in shooting, but he gives such an engaging performance and the rest of the movie lifts him up. The rest of that movie feels so authentic because of Ron Shelton’s baseball background, and like how good Costner is. And it’s like— I don’t mind that Nuke LaLoosh looks like a baby deer throwing a baseball. Like, I— I can get over that. And then there’s— you know, there are, like, inaccuracies that benefit a movie. Like, everything in Moneyball. If Moneyball opened and it’s like, “Damn, we lost Giambi. We lost Damon. Billy, good news. We’ve got the best rotation the American League. We’ve got the best left side of the infield in the American League. We’ve got— like, we’re gonna be fine. We’re gonna be fine. We only— we actually don’t even need to replace those guys. We just need role players, and we’re gonna be fine.” It’s like end credits. And then so—
ALEX: Right.
KYLE: —so it’s like— I’ve— I’ve gone the other way, where I’m just, like, I’m just here to enjoy it, unless it is a movie that is slapping me in the face. Like, again, like Trouble with the Curve, that’s like, “I’m a really smart baseball movie,” but it’s not. If it’s not something like that, I’m just going to be happy that there’s a sports movie, because I think, like, the three of us have talked about. Like, they’re— they’re just not around as much anymore.
ALEX: I’m kind of curious, because you— you know, the— there are multiple elements that you can really dive into in sports movies. You can look at sort of the broader arc, the narrative that’s being told. You can look at kind of the actual athletic feats. When you’re, like, watching these movies, how— I’m— I’m just kind of— I guess I’m wondering sort of what the balance is between, like, appreciation of sort of the— the vibe and the emotion that’s being put forth versus, like, the very tangible. Like, this guy doesn’t know how to throw a baseball or something like that. Like, do you find yourself, I guess, considering one more than the other? Okay, the Athletics in this— in this movie, look like crap, but it got me to cry at the end. So, like, it’s kind of comes out on the wash. You know, like, how do you— how do you find yourself thinking about that as you’re watching these movies?
KYLE: You can— I think you can overlook bad athleticism for the sake of a movie. I don’t think it’s the— like, if the movie is good. I don’t think it’s the opposite. I don’t think if, like, the— like, if the basketball is awesome in a movie, but the movie isn’t— isn’t the best. I’m trying to think of like an example of that. I know Blue Chips gets knocked for that. Like, it just being like the basketball is great, but like, I like Blue Chips. I find Blue Chips wildly entertaining. Like, I put Blue Chips in the book. But I think—
BOBBY: Can I submit to you For Love of the Game?
KYLE: Ooh. There you go, Bobby, because I think— I think the— the— the— it’s the best on-field MLB baseball in the history of sports movies.
BOBBY: It’s recreated, like, so faithfully. And, of course, Costner is the goat. [41:12]
KYLE: Vi— Vin Scully is— yeah. And Vin Scully—
BOBBY: Vin Scully is calling it like it’s a real game.
KYLE: Fi— the— the monolog he gives about, like, touch this— touch the— whatever it is, is— is incredible. Like, the movie just sucks. Like, every other part is so bad. So, like— yeah.
BOBBY: It’s like when he’s not actively pitching a baseball, I’m like, “I need this to stop.” Like— and it’s also, like, two hours and 28 minutes, you know? It’s like, what happened here?
KYLE: You can do The Two Towers rewatch, where you just stay with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, and skip everything else. Like, there is— like, I’ve— I’ve done that. Like, it’s— it might be the sports movie version of that. So there— there are movies like that, but I think there are more where you can get— you can get away with, like, the sports not being as good, but, like, typically good— really good movies are married up with— they put effort into making the— the on-field action looks— look— look pretty good. Like, that’s not— you can say, like, the early Rocky movies of— I guess all the Rocky movies up until maybe Creed look kind of cartoonish, but that was also the times. But a lot of the time like it looks— it looks good enough. Like, usually, I feel like you don’t have to make the call that often. Like, a good movie will have good baseball. Yeah, I think Moneyball might actually be an example of, like, the— I think we talked about it like the— let’s do the weird thing with the lighting, and make the Coliseum look nearly pitch-black. And— and, you know, have that whole thing going, but it— it’s still— you know, if you can get over Chris Pratt as Scott Hatteberg, it’s still like the sports are— the sports are doable there.
BOBBY: Yeah. You know, I mentioned For Love of the Game, because I was recently watching this for an episode of Big Picture, The Kevin Costner Hall of Fame, and I just wanted to go back and check it out, because I remember not really liking it as a movie very much, but— but I was giving everything a fair shake. And, like, within the first— here’s— here’s an example of what I was trying to talk about with my first question for you, Kyle. In the first 20 minutes of that movie, we have Brian Cox, who’s pay— playing the owner of the Detroit Tigers, coming in to tell Costner, his star pitcher, who’s been in the league for, like, 19 years, and who’s always played for the Tigers the whole time. And he comes in and he says, “I’m selling the team, and the new owners of the team have told me that the first thing that they want to do is trade you to the Angels.” So the trade is agreed upon before the sale of the team has gone through, guys. Before the sale of the team, and you don’t have any say in this trade because they don’t want to pay your salary next year. They want to slash payroll and rebuild the team, because the team is not going to make the playoffs, and it’s not very good anymore. You guys are over the hill as a roster. Right out— right out of the gate, my mind, I’m like, “First of all, this is insane.” This trade would not be agreed to before the sale of the team, which is happening to— tomorrow, I guess, which is the day after the season ends. That would never happen. Second of all, 10 years of service time, automatic no trade clause for every veteran’s contract. Movie’s over, movies over, guys. And I’m, like, so annoyed by that, because you have the audacity to introduce things that are so specific and then make them not right. It’s, like, not even a really like a storytelling convention, like you’re talking about in Moneyball, where Michael Lewis and then the authors of the film, the adaptation of the book, left stuff out to hone in on one part of the picture that was intriguing to them, to make it feel as intriguing as it was to the people who were doing this. The people who were—the— the Billy beans of the world. This is just like— this is just sports movie nonsense. Like, you’re just hoping that the viewers of your film are not gonna be incredibly detail-oriented people who are freaks. And yet, you have to know that that’s the way sports fans are, right? That’s the way the three of us are. That’s the way that most people are when they watch— when they watch a football movie and, like, you have, like, seven people on the field, you know? Like, just things that are not accurate to the sport that they love and spend hundreds of hours a year watching.
KYLE: That’s what drives me crazy, is unforced errors in sports movies, like things that are easily fixable. I go back to— Remember the Titans is actually, like, has a lot of football problems. And— and if you remember in the— in the last, like— the last game or whatever. they need to get— it says something that, like, as long as the— as long as the team they’re playing holds on to the ball, they’ll be state champions. Well, you know— you— like, they’re just gonna knee it out.
BOBBY: Right.
KYLE: Like, it doesn’t need to be this ridi— ridiculous fumble. Like, they’re— they’re not gonna fumble. They’re just gonna— they’re just gonna knee it out. And then the— the last play— what drives me— it just drives me crazy, is they’re— they’re— I guess they’re— they’re very far from the end zone, and the head coach of the other team is, like, “They’re going deep. Cover deep.” Like, you’re— you’re already in— you’re already in prevent. Like, you’re already— like, you’re already there. You’re already covering deep. Like the— that little backwards reverse gets— gets foiled so easily. And it’s just like things like that, that don’t have to be. You could just do a big—
BOBBY: Yes.
KYLE: The— the Titans get a big— a big stand and force them to punt, anything different. And then it’s like, again, all the way back to Trouble with the Curve, there— movies like that, that have so many small things that even, like, you know, finite baseball fans would— would know or— would know are incorrect, like two teams talking about, like, one team scout asking another team scout if he should pick— pick a player in the draft. Like, that’s— that’s not a thing. Wouldn’t ha— wouldn’t happen and it doesn’t take like a savant to— to realize that. And it’s— that’s— those are the things that— while I can watch most movies and just be, like, appreciate the content, it’s more— if— if you do something that you— it’d be very easy, be one line change, if you just— if— For Love of the Game, if it’s like, “Hey, Billy, I’m selling the team and, you know, they’re— they’re not going to renew your contract.” Like, you’re going to— you’re going to have to go into free agency,” or something like, “They’re not—”
BOBBY: Yes.
KYLE: “They’re not going to resign you. They— they’ve kind of— they’ve done me the courtesy, I wanted to let you know. But you’re— you’re not going to be a Detroit Tiger next year. Boom.”
BOBBY: Done.
KYLE: Boom. We’re— we’re good.”
BOBBY: It’s actually fewer lines.
ALEX: Easy.
BOBBY: It’s actually less confusing.
KYLE: Yes. Yes. Or it’d be even better if it was Brian Cox and it’s like, “I’m actually giving the son to— to— I’m giving the team to my idiot son, Kendall, and he— and he is— he is now your boss.”
BOBBY: I do think that there’s a future in this where we merge the Succession world with— with sports somehow, and we just— there— there’s endless potential there. By the way, I’m fully aware of the fact that we sound like the— you know, the Will senate tweet. That’s like, “I would strike Timothee Chalamet out on three pitches. ” I’m aware that we’re kind of like that, where we’re like, “I would fix this fictional problem easily. Here’s how I would do it. Boom, boom, boom.” You know?
KYLE: Oh, I mean, I was not a good baseball player, but I have watched baseball movies and been like, “I would have been better than that person that you [48:05] so—” I’ll—
BOBBY: Don’t sell yourself short. You played college baseball, right? Come on, that’s better than most people watching baseball movies.
KYLE: Yeah. I mean, I— I might as well have thrown BP. But, again, that— it— that’s the thing with—
BOBBY: Patrick Corbin made 125 million thrown BP for the last four years.
KYLE: I mean, that’s— that’s a very— that’s an extremely fair point. And I— I wish I would have gotten paid similar for— for giving up that many home runs. But that’s— that’s the thing too. If you’re not going to ask an actor to, like, win an Oscar for you, if the role is not in super crucial on just being a thespian, just— there are thousands of former Minor League Baseball players who would look good playing Minor— who would look good playing baseball, who would look good playing football or basketball. Like, just get one of them. The guy who plays David Justice in— in Moneyball is great.
BOBBY: Yes. Yes.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
KYLE: He’s in some other stuff as an athlete, and he’s a former Minor League Baseball player. He does the job very well. Hire that guy for every sports movie. It’s—
BOBBY: He has the best on-screen baseball swing ever, I think.
KYLE: It’s beautiful.
ALEX: Forever?
BOBBY: Yeah. I think—
KYLE: It’s— it’s beautiful.
BOBBY: I think ever.
ALEX: I mean, so— so why do you think that— that is then, that you— there often are so many of these oversight? Because, like, these movies are often, you know, millions of dollars’ worth of production to go into that, and years of— of planning. I— especially like, you know, 20 years ago or whatever, when it wasn’t just streaming services that were churning this stuff out. Like, these were real people who thought of these stories and— and invested a lot of time and then— and then— and then you get these sort of weird oversights. I mean, is it just kind of because there’s an assumption that who’s gonna— who’s doing a sports podcast that’s gonna nitpick all of this stuff? Who’s gonna pick up on— on, you know, the [49:52] or whatever?
BOBBY: The studios didn’t see the podcast wave coming. They’re just—
ALEX: Right, honestly.
BOBBY: They— they weren’t aware that everybody and their brother was gonna have a pod.
KYLE: They completely missed it. It’s— it’s— some of it is intent of the movie, like Summer Catch. That movie is let’s get Freddie Prinze, Jr. and Jessica Biel together, and put them in a summer rom-com, and people will go see it. We don’t care about the baseball. Even though the dude they got to play like the— the foil in that movie, or like the— the pitcher with the— the flaming glove. While the flaming glove, you wouldn’t be allowed to use in a game, that guy can throw gas. Everyone else stinks. But it’s like, you know, the— the sports aren’t the— the priority of that movie. For other movies, like it’s— it depends on really, like, how much you— how much you care about it, like the effort that’s put into it. I— in— in the book, I talked about— there’s this guy named Mark Robert Ellis who runs, like, his company. He’s been working in sports movies for, like, 30 years now, almost 30 years. And his company is, like, about develop— is— is— is handling, choreographing the sport action in the movie. And I’ve talked to someone— I’ve interviewed on Big Screen Sports, a woman named Jessi Sheldon, who runs Game Changing Films, who they talk— she talked— talked me through that whole process. And it depends on how much leeway they are given into how good they can make the sports look. Do they— are they able to source the extras? Or is it some— they are coming— are they able to make suggestions when it comes to the shooting? Or is it they are— I will say, they worked on Trouble with the Curve. They were basically given no leeway at all. Like, they had to deal with— they had no say in extras, no say in casting, no say in, you know, how— how things were shot. They were just— had to do their best. For movies that want to put in the effort, like Mark Robert Ellis, you— you’ve— you’ve seen him in movies. He is in The Replacements. He is the coach whose team gets frustrated by the cheerleaders that are— are strippers. He’s— he’s in that. He’s in a— he’s in a couple other movies. In The Rookie, they handle the casting, they— they handle the extras. They work with actors. Like, I remember watching a— a snippet of Mark Robert Ellis working with Adam Sandler on the Longest Yard, who put in a lot of effort to look as playable— a former pro quarterback as Adam Sandler can possibly look. Like street hoops legend Adam trying to get there under center. So it’s— I— I will say, like a lot of it really seems about effort and like— it’s like sports, like having the want to. Do we want the sports in this movie to look good? Let’s hire an actor who can throw a football. Like Keanu Reeves is still out there doing— doing kung fu. He can probably still sling a football. It’s like, do we— do we hire a cast who can play and do we put in the effort to say we want the sports in this movie to at least look decently passable to those who are going to be nitpicking them? Or do we think the movie can stand on its own without them? Lot of the time, that’s not the case.
BOBBY: I think that sometimes it’s a different— it’s a difference in philosophy, frankly, between sports fans and movie makers. Like when you go to the movies, oftentimes, this is less true nowadays with the way that we make movies. But when you go to the movies, oftentimes they’re asking you to suspend your disbelief. Like, nowadays, we maybe like— we maybe expect movies to be too real, the dialog, the delivery, the like— the CGI. Like, we expect it to look too real when we know that it’s— it’s a movie. And if you can suspend your disbelief, you’re there for the story, you’re there for the spectacle, you’re there for experiencing it with a lot of other people. Sports fans, like the whole point of being a sports fan is to not suspend your disbelief. Like, you believe it’s all real. You believe that this is the— the cutting edge of competition and anything, as we saw with like the Astros cheating scandal, or Spygate, or as we’re seeing with sports betting, like anything that pierces that veil, anything that pierces the bubble of you expecting this to be like as real as real gets, kind of ruins the whole experience. And so sometimes I do think it’s a little bit of like an oil and water thing. And then other times, you’re right, that’s like— this is so heinous that I can’t believe that they didn’t even make it look slightly more real, just so that I could enjoy it. Because there are examples of it being so great. There are examples where you don’t need to suspend your disbelief at all. Like everybody wants some, like that’s what it’s like to be on a baseball team. That’s what it’s like to throw a BP. That’s what it’s like to fuck around with your friends and do baseball-related activities in a backyard. And so it’s not like that movie— I mean, I know it was a slightly higher budget than a lot of his other movies, but like, it’s not like that movie is a $200 million movie, and it’s not like those guys are, like, commanding $8 million salaries, either. These are just guys. And so I don’t know. It— to your point, I mean, it’s effort. It’s also know-how, it’s also passion. It’s— it’s like a passion for the sports world and everything that comes with it. And that actually makes it like a rich, lived experience too, because that’s— that’s like the secret sauce of a sports movie. Like, you want it to tell you something about humanity, about being alive. That’s— because that’s what we want from sports, too.
KYLE: Yeah. You also— I mean, sports movies, the cool thing about them is they take us into places that we most of us will never be. Like the Roy Hobbs moment walking off for the pennant, The Natural. Like, most of us will never be in the box there. Most of us are never in the clubhouse or the locker room of professional clubhouses. Or— or a lot of these—a lot of these scenarios, or they just remind us of things we know. Bad News Bears, like we all played youth sports. We all saw those crazy parents. Like, that’s the perfect commentary on them. Everybody wants them, Bobby. It’s like, you threw out, like, my— my crack. Like, that’s— that’s it for me. But it’s like— Linklater, just like Ron Shelton, like they were baseball players. Like Linklater played— played some college baseball. Like, that’s his raw experience. And I think when you get— when you get sports fans helming these movies, or at least writing these movies that are very passionate about them, and just know sports, like they’re going to put in that extra effort. Like Linklater built a baseball team and knew that baseball was— that’s the thing with this— that movie is it only has one baseball scene, like on a field, but baseball is everything about how those guys communicate with each other, from them competing, playing knuckles in the, you know— to, like, the— the little— the door frame basketball and things like that. Like, it’s— it’s everything about that movie. And I think when— when effort is taken— like, I point to— even like a movie, like 61, like Billy Crystal loves the Yankees.
BOBBY: Yup.
KYLE: And that passion came through, that movie is really, really good from a guy just because he loves the Yankees. And it’s— if you have the passion for sports, and you’re helming this movie a lot of the time, if the effort’s going to be there, for sports fans, I think it’s at least going to be passable. Like, it doesn’t have to be a best picture winner if the effort’s there, and the sports look decent, and the dialog is reasonable, like, make— you know you’re not, like, pulling too many things that are just not realistic with sports. Like, I think it’s going to be passable, and it’s going to work. And it’s why they should make more of these movies, because I feel like it’s pretty not rinse and repeat. But, like, if you make a half decent sports movie, like a lot of people are going to like it. Like, I loved— did you guys like Hustle, the Sandler movie from years ago?
BOBBY: I— yes. Yes.
KYLE: I— I loved it. Give me, like, eight of those every year.
BOBBY: It’s confounding to me that sports movies are not in the place that horror movies are. Like, the— those movies are so cheap to make, yet people love them. And it’s like as long as you can show a decent amount of fidelity to the history of horror and what people— what audiences crave from horror, that’s like— it’s like as a pigeonholed genre, but as like— as— as you said, repeatable of a genre. We just don’t— I don’t know. We— we force—
KYLE: What is the shutter, like sports movie Blumhouse that we need just to start, like, cranking these things out?
BOBBY: I don’t know. Yeah, I— I’m— I’m fully in alignment with you, but it just seems like we’re feel— we’re moving further and further away from that. And even, like, the mo— the sports movies that we’ve gotten— Hustle is a good example. But the sports movies that we’ve gotten that stick in the culture in the last, like, 10 to 15 years have a— have a certain element of prestige that is, like, hard to repeat. Like, we’re not— we’re not making Moneyball again, guys. Like that— that’s kind of like a once in a lifetime sports movie, and for a lot of reasons. And Brad Pitt being the main one of them. Like, that’s not a repeatable formula. You’re not getting that type of person to be in your sports movie. Honestly, everybody wants some, is a more repeatable formula, but that movie flopped a little bit because the studio didn’t know what the fuck to do with it.
KYLE: Yeah. Yeah. Another mo— I think the last time you guys were on my show, maybe, was we did High Flying Bird, which—
BOBBY: Yes.
KYLE: —you know, like Steven Soderbergh did that, so it’s not like, you know, that was just, like, a— a no name with no cache, but like, why not more of those? I think we talked about the future, the sports movie might be the behind the scenes and the game within the game, like way more of that stuff than actually stuff on the court. But, like, that movie, by design, was not expensive. And, you know, he shot it with an iPhone, and it’s like, why can’t we have more of those and, like, why can’t streamers take more chances on someone? Hey, make me a cheap sports movie about the MLB trade deadline. Or, you know— I don’t— I don’t know. The— like, a—
BOBBY: Make me another Draft Day. Come on.
KYLE: Make me—
BOBBY: Lay it on me. I need it.
KYLE: The best thing— the best thing— I’ve done Draft Day a few times on the— on the podcast and, like, the first iteration when I— it was recorded off, like, a phone call, it was terrible. But my— my guest is a great— does draft stuff, does like Dallas Cowboy stuff. He said, “The movie’s not good, but I was never not entertained.” And that’s— I think the perfect— the perfect thing with Draft Day. Make me more movies like that. Make me more entertaining sports movies, and you can make them as cheap as you want. I don’t care, I will watch them.
ALEX: Yeah. Well, there’s, like, a really nice, like— like, almost like, level of camp that a lot of sports movies can fall to before they actually get to be bad, because— because to your point, like, sports fans eat the shit up, right? Whether it’s good or not. And you have an opportunity— you have a built-in audience for a lot of these movies, because people just— people just like it and it makes them feel good. You know, I like watching a baseball movie. I kind of, at the end of the day, don’t care if the baseball is top notch or not. And it’s similar to horror, right? It’s like, it doesn’t have to be good. If it’s bad, that’s sometimes just as entertaining and— and fun. And I feel like there’s too much fear about that. But the streamers, I think, are in the perfect situation with that. I mean, they have more money than they know what to do with. Why not crank a few more out?
KYLE: Yeah, a lot of the time, it’s just— it’s a pretty rinse and repeat formula of, like, things that always work. Like, watching a team come together and, like— that always works. It— it’s always— if— if you can— if you can have at least guys with— with significant chemistry, guys or girls. Actually, the— the— the sports movie universe that needs to be tapped is women’s sports, because especially like writing this book, there’s very— very little— like, there’s so much meat on the bone for incredible women’s sports stories, like, based on a true story or not. That, and [1:01:03]
BOBBY: I mean, the League of Their Own is, like, still cult iconic status, because it’s truly—
KYLE: Incredible.
BOBBY: —one of the most like— it’s fidelity to the— to the history, but also just, like, servicing a base need for women who are sports fans and who have an attachment to this league that was axed after two years for political purposes.
KYLE: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it— there— there’s so much meat on the bone there, but it’s like, you know, a team coming together, you know, starting off the season rough, finding something to bond over, big game at the end. It’s very cliche, but a lot of the times, like those movies are quality. Like they just— they make you feel good. I go back to a movie that I watched for the first time because of the pod. And again, this is like a bigger budget movie, and it’s a Disney movie, but it’s not like that big budget. It was the Costner cross country movie, McFarland, USA, which— which Bob got— got skipped over in— in the— in the Costner Hall of Fame, like, not— not much—
BOBBY: He’s such a [1:02:03] Lord. Costner is such a lord. [1:02:04]
KYLE: Not much discussed about it.
BOBBY: He’s definitely, like, one of the biggest assholes who’s ever become a movie star. But, like, come on, dawg. Come on. I’m kidding.
KYLE: That movie is pretty good. That make— the movie makes me feel things. And, like, it’s just— you know, it’s a story about cross country runners in a farm town in California. And, you know— you know without— you know all the beats in that movie pretty much before they happen. The second it starts out and you see Costner as like a gruff white guy who’s moving to this farm town. You’re like, “He’s gonna identi— he’s gonna find a way to identify with this culture he’s unfamiliar with. These kids are gonna have some— some personal strife and deal with some things. He’s going to convince them to make better lives for themselves. They’re going to have this miraculous journey throughout the season. And they are either going to win, or they going to come so close, and they’re going to feel like winners in the end.” I knew that whole movie from the second it started, and I really liked it. So why— why— why can’t we have more— more movies like that?
BOBBY: Kyle, what’s the— what’s the biggest thing you learned while writing this book? Like, what was the hardest thing for you? What was the thing that you weren’t expecting?
KYLE: Oh, man. I mean, it was hard. It was— I— I— I liked the exercise of— of really trying to think about why do I love these movies. Like doing— the stuff that was, like, the categories in the— because each— each movie has a section where I break down with someone in this movie, good at their job or not. Like, that was fun, because that’s like, you know, White Goodman’s lawyers to— were his lawyers good? Probably not. You know, things like that, like picking an MVP for the game, like stuff like that was fun. But actually, breaking down— because each movie we took a matchup— you know, most— most sports movies have their, like, end game or whatever, for some of them. Like The Sandlot, I wrote about the— the fireworks game and, like, why that’s special. And having to actually get deeper than, oh, this— you know, the game— the end game in The Replacements is just sick. I love watching it. Like, having— having to get deeper in that was— and find— find ways to talk about why I loved it, other than just like a summary of, man, it’s awesome when Shane Falco throws that— that pass at the end or something like that. That was— it was— it was really fun, and it was also interesting, like some of these movies I would watch— like the— for instance, if I was writing about— if I was breaking down that final game of The Replacements, I would watch that over and over and over. Like, I would watch it for two hours. I would watch that same scene for two hours and, like, look for— look for things I hadn’t noticed, and that was another— that was another fun thing. The one thing I learned, movie-wise, is that I was absolutely sleeping on Slap Shot. I— I think I had only seen it once, and I think now I’ve seen it 10 times. And I— I don’t even remember when I had seen it. I just knew I had, and I certainly was not in, like, the headspace to appreciate it then, because it was one that was, like, absolutely going to be in the book. He’d make a ticket for it. Like, loved the movie, and I went back and watched it. I was like, “This movie rips. This movie is, like, 40 plus years old and is still awesome.” And so that— that was one thing I learned that, like, Slap Shot is good. So I’ve joined kind of the general sports movie public in— in realizing, like, how good— how good Slap Shot is.
BOBBY: Right.
KYLE: It’s not really revolutionary. But, yeah, it was more just like being able to— I think that circles all the way back to the— the— like, one of the first questions that, I think, one of you guys asked me about, like, you know, watching movies, like being able to appreciate without nitpicking the sports. Like, a lot of this book was just like, why— why do we love this? Not what this got wrong, or this, you know, part of Tin Cup that doesn’t work for me or something like that. It’s just like, why is this a movie that— if it’s on TV, or if I’m poking through the Blu Ray collection, like, I will throw on. And so that was— that was fun. It’s kind of like, you know, self-healing after five years of criticizing sports movies for not getting— not getting some sort of aspect of sports right. It was— it was more of a spiritual journey in that regard.
BOBBY: Alex, what I just learned from this is that in order for us to rekindle our love for the finance of baseball, we have to write a book about it. So, like, Rob Manfred’s 10 years of commissioner, we’ll write a book about it, and then we’ll be able to appreciate it for what it is.
ALEX: Okay. Let’s— so I’ll do the illustrations of just Rob with, like, dollar signs in his eyes.
BOBBY: True. Maybe—
ALEX: And you can handle the writing?
BOBBY: Well, perhaps— do you feel conflicted enough about Alex Rodriguez’s status in the culture to be able to say, “We need to write a book about this to restore our faith and love.”? Or you feel—
ALEX: I actually—
BOBBY: —like I’m pro?
ALEX: I— I think— I think we should write a response to his eventual book, you know? The— the counter argument.
BOBBY: Yo, there is money in that. Like, what if we wrote like the— you know how like the Princeton Review or whatever, writes like study guides for books that you have to buy in college? Like, what if we did that for A-Rod’s book?
KYLE: Guy— speaking of your guy, did you see that he was playing in the American Century Championship this weekend, the big celebrity golf tournament?
BOBBY: No, I missed that. I missed this—
KYLE: He—
BOBBY: My— my affinity for A-Rod does not overcome my hatred for golf, so—
KYLE: So I love golf, and I love watching this tournament, because I love thinking of, like, the dynamics of all these random famous people and ex-athletes playing. But let me just say, A-Rod did poorly, very poorly. And for someone who is one of the greatest athletes of all time and hyper competitive, I really, like— I— I had a long thought about, like, how this is going to sit with him. And I— I really think, like, it might be something that keeps him up at night. That’s—
BOBBY: He’s probably just going to go buy another apartment complex, and jack up the rent, and kick out all of the old ladies who lived there.
KYLE: That— that— that makes him happy. That— that’s— that makes him happy.
ALEX: That is more than enough of an endorsement for me to go back and watch it in full now.
KYLE: They didn’t include them on covers that much, which is— which is— which is even funnier. You didn’t— you didn’t see a lot of A-Rod. You did see— you did see some of Roger Clemens, who looks like a beer barrel now, but not— not— not as much A-Rod. And then— and then legends Mark Mulder and Derek Lowe, just firing at pins, doing very well.
BOBBY: Oh, wow. All this— there are real [1:08:16] guy’s energy.
ALEX: All the stars are out.
KYLE: That’s— I think that’s why I like it—
BOBBY: Like, damn.
KYLE: —because the— they should change the name of it to the Remember Some Guys Tournament, because you get like— they— they flash up on the screen, the greatest scores in tournament history and like, Eric Gagne was up there. Like—
BOBBY: Yes. Yes.
KYLE: —it was— it was truly— truly a spe— it’s truly a special group every year. And I always— me and a buddy always text like, “Who doesn’t get invited back and why?” Like, I would love— would love to know the stories— the stories behind that. Like, they— they bring Clemens back every year, so they— they love them some [1:08:48]
BOBBY: Do you think that Eric Gagne, when he plays golf, wears the Rec Specs still or do you think that he has had LASIK?
KYLE: Ooh, that’s a good question.
BOBBY: Has he come into the 21st century or is he still holding on strong to the power of the Reck Specs? Eric, if you’re listening, please reach out, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. Let us know what— what your attire is when you play golf.
KYLE: I would love to know that too about Tyler Clipper, because I remember—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Hmm.
KYLE: —reading that Tyler Clipper is a— was an absolute stick while he was playing. So I would love to know if he— if he wears the— the Specs.
BOBBY: Tyler Clipper just came up on the pod. Second Tyler Clipper had mentioned in the last two weeks.
KYLE: Man, that’s great.
ALEX: I know.
KYLE: Hope he’s doing well.
ALEX: I am— I’m kind of curious, so the— so the— so the book is just visually, like, really gorgeous to— to look at, right? It is— it is as visually appealing as it is an entertaining read and— and there’s so many bits in there, sort of threads that you pull at. Again, it’s— it’s not just ticket stubs, but there are, you know, little like advertisements or maybe something that someone took home from the fair, a health chart, you know? There are all these, really, like, specific, I don’t know, pieces that are pulled from the movie and— and put to paper. I’m sort of wondering how— I mean, was that a— a collaboration between you two? Was— was he mostly saying, “Oh, look, I’ll handle the— the illustrations, the things that are interesting.”? Because, again, like you’re watching these as a sports fan. There are so many things that I feel like you could dive deep on that it would be hard to say, “Pick one play for a movie that you illustrate,” or something like that. So how did you kind of go about approaching that?
KYLE: Yeah. I— I can— first, I can, like, also endorse the— the art, because, since I had nothing to do with it, like, I can be completely objective. Like, the art looks awesome. Like, if you’re someone who wants this book, like the art looks great. You don’t have to read anything. Like, even if— even if, like— if you’re not a reader, if— if you think the writing is terrible, the art still looks awesome. So all the— the play maps and stuff. It was kind of a combo, though. Rick is, like, the ultimate ideas man. Like, I would have— I would wake up in the morning and I would have a text, and it’s like, “What about the ball—” it was like— be like, an image, and it’s like, “Here’s the ball that Roy Hobbs hit into the lights that has, like, been fried and it’s like, half, like, black and charred. Like, what about that?” So he would have stuff like that. I would also— I would throw random stuff out, because, like, some of it was like, making things fit for space. Obviously, we needed a certain amount of like— we needed, like, even pages for certain movies and things like that. So that’s where a lot of, like, the random— the random stuff went. Like, I remember we needed something to fill some space in the Bull Durham section, and it was like, a ball, so we were like, how would Crash Davis sign a baseball? And I think we went something like— unfortunately [1:11:39] like, Oswald acted alone or something like that, is on the baseball. But the— the— the ones for every movie, like we knew we would do a play map, pick a— pick a play or pick something from the movie. So for The Sandlot, he did the play map, like we— we did. Okay, this is Benny’s run through the town as he’s running away from— from Hercules at the end. A lot of them— the play maps were kind of a layup of, like, so for Major League, we’re obviously doing the Jake Taylor bunt. For The Natural, we’re doing the Roy Hobbs— Roy Hobbs home run at the end. For Hot Rod, we’re doing Rod Kimball’s bus jump, things like that. So it was— there were things that we knew we would have, the— the ticket and the— the play map for everything. And then for others, it was just like we were shooting the shit one day and, you know, thinking about, what would Roy McAvoy be doing 20 plus years after the US Open in Tin Cup, and we were like, he’d probably have, like, a Tom Emanski style VHS video— you know, instructional video, and so Rick then banged it out, because he is just incredibly creative. So it was— it was a mix, but I will say, like, Rick was firing off ideas like crazy. Like, he— there’s a million things on the cutting room floor that were so cool that I wish we could have included.
BOBBY: Well, Kyle, congratulations, man. This is awesome. This is a real book. I have it right here in front of me. It’s— it’s leather bound. Is it— is it leather? It— it feels weighty right here.
KYLE: I— I—
BOBBY: It’s like a nice coffee table gift as well. As Alex said, the illustrations, if you just want to flip through them, if you want to get it for a friend, where— where can people— where should people go to acquire Movies with Balls?
KYLE: So I think for the sake of, like, making the book do well, I think it’s like Amazon or Barnes & Noble, but if you go to bookshop.org, they do buy it from a local, independent bookseller. So that’s where, like, I will pre-order books a lot. But, yeah, wherever books are sold, it comes out on September 24th. I will— I haven’t announced this yet on social media, but for anyone who does a pre-order, I will be sending, like, a signed little book plate and a sticker if you send me proof of pre-order. So, you know, if— if I haven’t announced that on social media by the time this episode airs, just wait, it’s coming. But, yeah, it’s available where books are sold and I— I, as always, like, appreciate you guys having me on. And, yeah, I’ll— I’ll agree with— I— again, I can say it because I didn’t have anything to do with the art. Looks great in a bookshelf. Looks great on a coffee table. You don’t even have to read it. It’s— it’s all— visually, it’s great.
ALEX: To be clear, it’s a— it’s a great read. It is— front to back, it is a— it’s a wonderful book. Definitely encourage everyone to go pick it up once it drops. Kyle, thank you as always.
KYLE: Thank you guys, man. I’m very grateful. Thank you so much.
[theme]
BOBBY: Thanks to Kyle. Go get Kyle’s book, Movies with Balls. Good title for a book. It’s— it really is true that every single book now just has to have a— a colon and, like, an SEO-friendly title. And that’s fine. I get it. We’re all part of the same great game. But I miss when books were just titled, like, one word, or, like, you know, a question, such as, If I did it? Honestly, that probably had a— a colon and a title after it, too.
ALEX: I think so. I personally like— like, the col— I— I love a good, like— like one— yeah, one-word title and then, like, really long subheading. You know, like—
BOBBY: Uh-huh. Astroball.
ALEX: Lore— yeah, Astroball. I mean, it’s far—
BOBBY: That was your favorite book of 2019, right? Astroball.
ALEX: Astroball. Yes.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah, yeah. You do what you got to do, you know? I mean, it’s better than naming your book like I Watched Every Movie With Sports Balls In It. Here’s What I Learned.
BOBBY: Yeah. But don’t hate on bloggers who have to title stuff like that.
ALEX: I’m a little hating on bloggers who have to title stuff like that.
BOBBY: It’s been too long since you’ve been in the blogging minds, you know?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Have some empathy, bro. All right. It’s time for the ranking segment. It’s your turn to give me something to rank. Rank these Sally Rooney novels by the efficacy of their titles. Well, that’s one place for fiction. They’re still— they’re still cooking the title.
ALEX: They’re still cooking over there.
BOBBY: Yeah. Exactly.
ALEX: Except— well, fiction titles are, I feel, like a whole other can of worms.
BOBBY: In what way?
ALEX: Well, they’re all just, like, very twee these days, you know? Like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And like— and, like, overly wordy on purpose, I think.
BOBBY: Did you get sent an advanced copy of the new Sally Rooney? Are you one of the influencers who they send it out to? For all of your— all of your great work here on this podcast?
ALEX: Right. They were like, “You know, who needs to read this book.”
BOBBY: You were second on the list right behind Ayo Edebiri. I had coffee with someone who is in the movie industry now this morning, and he was at NYU at the same time as us. And we were talking about how weird it is that people who went to NYU with us are, like, really important in Hollywood now at this point.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: Like Emma Seligman and— and Rachel Sennott and Ayo. And I was like— he asked me if I had any classes with them while we were at NYU. And I was like, “No, I wasn’t in— I wasn’t in Tish, and I didn’t really know them while we were there.” I was like, “Did you?” And he’s like, “No, but I tell people I did all the time.” So funny. Not like AnnaSophia Robb, who we used to chop it up with all the time. And by chop it up, I mean, she used to study in that part of— of the student center that we used to sit there and people watching.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: You remember that?
ALEX: We were chopping it up with each other about her.
BOBBY: Right, exactly.
ALEX: Yo, that’s AnnaSophia Robb.
BOBBY: One time we were sitting there and she gave us a little what’s up. She said, “Hey.” That happened.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That happened.
ALEX: Bridge to Terabithia. That’s her, right?
BOBBY: You’re damn right it is. Little Charlie and the Chocolate Factory action?
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: Rank AnnaSophia Robb’s five best movies.
ALEX: No, Bobby, but speaking of bridges—
BOBBY: Here we go.
ALEX: —I want you to rank, I want you to rank, Bobby, these infrastructure achievements in the United States of America. All right?
BOBBY: Okay. Wow. A nice, full circle moment.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That’s content creation, ladies and germs.
ALEX: I definitely— I had this planned out weeks in advance.
BOBBY: You— yeah. It’s almost like you knew we would talk about this.
ALEX: It was just—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: It was just cosmic that we ended up talking about this.
BOBBY: Knowing that we’re recording this like five days in advance, you’re gonna have me rank them, and I’m gonna— the— the one that I rank number one is gonna, like, collapse between now and then.
ALEX: All right. So choose carefully.
BOBBY: Okay, I will.
ALEX: With great power. And— and however you choose to rank these is— is up to you. It could be that by their beauty, their utility.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: Their longevity.
BOBBY: Well, that doesn’t seem like it’s up to me, then. If I’m ranking based on their longevity, feels like a— that’s an outcome determinant issue.
ALEX: Well, I’m saying, you can take into account whatever you— whatever you want. I’m just— I— I don’t want you to think that just because something’s been around the longest, it’s been the best. That’s what I’m saying. I’m gonna rank them based on how long I think they will last.
ALEX: That’s pretty funny. The Hoover Dam,.
BOBBY: Okay. Love the Hoover Dam Wikipedia page. I’ve spent a lot of time there.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. The Golden Gate Bridge.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: You ever crossed that before? It’s a good bridge.
BOBBY: One time. The Golden Gate Bridge, not gold. What’s up with that?
ALEX: Yeah, it’s true. Not— not technically gold. Also— maybe I’ve said this on the pod before, but I walked on the Golden Gate Bridge one time. And—
BOBBY: You said this last week on the pod.
ALEX: Well— oh, yes, I know I said that. But, like, I— I touched the side of it and, like, the paint was wet, because, like, that thing is so big, once they get done painting it, they have to just start repainting—
BOBBY: Start painting it again.
ALEX: Exactly. That was sick.
BOBBY: [1:19:54]
ALEX: I didn’t wash my hand for a week after that.
BOBBY: It’s like when you go to a concert, you keep the wristband on.
ALEX: Right. You walk into school the next day with X’s on the back of your hand. Like, yeah, I’m pretty sick.
BOBBY: I just found a photo of the construction of the Golden Gate Bridge, and I gotta say, I don’t— I— I’m not loving it. It’s freaking me out.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: As a person who’s afraid of heights.
ALEX: All right. The Empire State Building.
BOBBY: Okay. Love the Art Deco King.
ALEX: Not located in the US, but a feat of American engineering, the Panama Canal.
BOBBY: Oh, I thought you were saying that the Empire State Building was not the [1:20:32]
ALEX: What do you mean come on?
BOBBY: Was that five? No, that was four.
ALEX: I don’t—I don’t think so. The Transcontinental Railroad.
BOBBY: All right. That’s five.
ALEX: Linked the Eastern US and Western US. Changed— changed the world. So again, however, you want to— I see your— your big sigh.
BOBBY: Known originally as the Pacific Railroad and later as the Overland Route.
ALEX: Oh, yeah?
BOBBY: That’s what they say.
ALEX: That was— you’re just finding right off the dome, right?
BOBBY: The Transcon— yeah. the Transcontinental Railroad did give us the game ticket to the board game Ticket to Ride, so that has to be factored in.
ALEX: That’s enough for me.
BOBBY: Okay. Last, I’m going Panama Canal. Remember— but it was really funny when the ship got stuck in there. I’ll give you that.
ALEX: Wait, the Suez— Suez Caal.
BOBBY: That wasn’t the Panama Canal. It was—
ALEX: But it was really funny that it happened twice.
BOBBY: It was. Yeah, no, that was really funny. It doesn’t do it for me. There’s a lot of checkered history with the US building the Panama Canal. Not sure if you’ve heard of it.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: Pretty problematic.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Pre— they were like, “That’s ours now.” And Panama was like, “What if it wasn’t?” And the US was like, “What if we killed you all?”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: As we do number four— honestly, number four, I’m gonna go Golden Gate Bridge. Maybe that’s controversial. That’s a pretty iconic American structure.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Just doesn’t do much for me personally. I’ve only driven over it once. I’m ranking them based on how useful they are to me, I guess.
ALEX: To you, individually. You’re like, “I’ve never been through the Panama Canal.”
BOBBY: Right. How would my life be different?
ALEX: I’ve never needed a waterway passage.
BOBBY: I’ve never been in the South Pacific and needed to get to the South Atlantic. And I don’t foresee myself needing that. No, I’ll put Golden Gate— Gate Bridge number four. Hoover— Hoover Dam number three.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Actually, no, no, no.
ALEX: Hmm. Hmm.
BOBBY: I’m gonna go— I’m gonna go Empire State Building number three. Mostly because the way that I’m— I’m ranking these is based on, like, how proud would I be if I was the person who built this?
ALEX: Nice.
BOBBY: Panama Canal, not proud.
ALEX: Not proud of that one.
BOBBY: I would not be proud of that accomplishment and what we needed to do to do it. Okay?
ALEX: You’d be pulling a Joe West and scraping your Wikipedia left and right over that one.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm. Exactly. Golden Gate Bridge, like, yeah, if I built it, cool. That would be cool if I built that bridge, but it’s also just a bridge, you know? It’s a suspension bridge. It’s not the first and it won’t be the last.
ALEX: Just a fucking bridge, all right. Dime a dozen over here in New York.
BOBBY: And then number three, Empire State Building. If I built that, I’d be like, “I built the fucking Empire State Building, dawg.” It’s the most famous—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —building— it’s the most famous building in maybe the world? Probably not the world. The most famous skyscraper in the world, I guess.
ALEX: Yeah. I’d say that’s reasonable. And— and you know what? The New York Times didn’t just send a push notification about the fucking Empire State Building in shambles.
BOBBY: No, because hypothetical me built it, right?
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: I think the Empire State Building is really cool. Maybe that makes me—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —corny. When I see it, I’m like, there it is every time.
ALEX: Have you ever been up there?
BOBBY: Once. I think about it a lot. It was horrifying.
ALEX: And not positively.
BOBBY: Yeah. well, you went up to the top of the Duomo in Florence with me. You saw me then.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Imagine that, but fucking a 100 stories higher.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Not pretty.
ALEX: That’s gonna be a no for me.
BOBBY: I was like— I was death gripping the rail far away from the edge. Like ,I was, like, 13, 12 or 13. Kind of costs a lot of money to go up there. Now, we’re getting distracted. Okay, number two.
ALEX: If you’d built it, you wouldn’t let anyone go up.
BOBBY: No, because I— I would— I would not prevent people from going up, because then how would we get the conclusion of the movie Sleepless in Seattle?
ALEX: Hmm. See, now you’re thinking.
BOBBY: You’ve seen that flick?
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Have you seen any movies?
ALEX: No. And frankly, the more you talk about movies on this podcast, the less I— I just want to watch any movie ever. I’m like, “Goddammit. I swear to God if he references this.”
BOBBY: You’ve only seen one movie and it’s Stalker, because I brought you there.
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. Although—
BOBBY: Imagine a— a guy who’s only seen one movie and it’s Stalker is really funny, hypothetical. Really funny. It’s like, “This is how the rest of them are?” And you’re just like, “Not exactly.”
ALEX: Like, what the fuck is going on with them? Why are they talking so much? All right. You’ve got Hoover Dam, Transcontinental Railroad. I know you’re— I know you’re vamping a little bit.
BOBBY: I’m hemming and I’m hawing.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I’m doing both. A little bit of hemming, a little bit of hawing.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I think that I’m going to put Hoover Dam number two.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And Transcontinental Railroad number one.
ALEX: What was the—
BOBBY: Well, you know what? No. I’m flipping them. I’m flipping them.
ALEX: Dams are sick.
BOBBY: I agree.
ALEX: They’re crazy.
BOBBY: It’s like, oh, you just stopped the water.
ALEX: You just stopped the water, and you’re gonna use that to, I don’t know, make power and take care of the wildlife.
BOBBY: So the reason that I almost— that I— that I wanted to put— like, part of me wanted to put the railroad number one was because trains, basically, they created this country, more or less. The railroad, like being able to ship material goods from one side of the country to the other side of the country. But then also, like, now we’ve kind of let it go, kind of given up on that dream.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: You know, like the Barry Keoghan character says in— in Banshees of Inisherin. Another movie that you haven’t seen probably.
ALEX: That’s— no, I have see— what— didn’t we watch that together?
BOBBY: Yeah, I think we did. He goes, “There goes that dream.” That must be like the people, wherever they are, heaven or hell, who built the railroad. There goes that dream.
ALEX: Uh-huh. Right. So if you— if that was you, and you saw it, you would be like, “Look, I’m proud—”
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: “—of what I did, but they’ve bastardized it since— since I moved on.”
BOBBY: Yeah. And also the execution of the building of that, I got some notes on that.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I got some notes. Won’t get too deep into the notes. But I think if you know—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —much about the building of railroads in America, you could probably have some notes for yourself.
ALEX: Right. But this one—
BOBBY: I’m sure it’s [1:27:22]
ALEX: —this is one where it was like— it was like— it was, like, worth it, right? It’s kind of like, “You’re— look, yeah, you’re balancing risk and reward.”
BOBBY: Somewhat of a trolley problem, you could say.
ALEX: There you go. Nice.
BOBBY: I’m sure, like, a million people died building the Hoover Dam, too. Why did they name the Hoover Dam after Hoover? Because it was built by FDR during the Great Depression. And you would think that FDR, the number one person that he would not want to name a dam after, is Hoover. It appears that it was Congress who did it. Fucking Congress.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: You can’t trust them.
ALEX: Always sticking their nose in.
BOBBY: One thing that Herbert Hoover would have never done is build the Hoover Dam.
ALEX: Build a dam.
BOBBY: Build anything that would have helped anyone, sustainably specifically.
ALEX: That’s kind of a— it’s kind of a sick burn, honestly, They’re like, “Look, Herbie, we’re gonna plaster your name all over this essential piece of infrastructure.” That your brother was so pissed about.
BOBBY: It really grinds his gears. Yeah.
ALEX: He’s like, “No. It’s effective.”
BOBBY: It’s currently operated by the US Bureau of Reclamation. I didn’t know we had one of those.
ALEX: Nope.
BOBBY: It’s fucking sick that it’s just owned by the government. Remember when we used to have things that were essential, that were owned by the government?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Here’s a question for you, and then we can wrap up the podcast. What year will the— will the Hoover Dam be purchased by a private company? Or will it never be purchased by a private company because the United States will collapse before that happens?
ALEX: Well, there you go. I feel like in the next— all right. So it was constructed in 1936.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Or completed in 1936, sorry.
BOBBY: 20,000 people built it.
ALEX: Coming up on a 100 years. 100 years of Hoov. I think—
BOBBY: Not that close.
ALEX: Well, in the grand scheme of years. Like, you know, we’re just for 12 out, right?
BOBBY: Are we gonna make it to the 100 years of Hoov? It’s an open question. It’s the number one question that I have on my mind.
ALEX: You can start— you can start— yeah, true. I think that by— I think that by 2050, okay, there will be necessary improvements that need to be made to it, and like structural upgrades that the federal government is not interested in making. And a private company will swoop in and say, “We will make this— we will make these upgrades. We will make this investment in exchange for like shared ownership.” I think it’ll probably start out as like, all right. Now, all of a sudden, General Electric owns 47% of the Hoover Dam.
BOBBY: But you know that the Hoover Dam is going to be like the most valuable asset in America? Because it controls water flow throughout Colorado, which controls water flow throughout the whole southwest.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Because everyone else is trying to get that water. California’s like, “I’ll take that water.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: “I’ll take that electric. That’s mine now.” Gavin Newsom, future president that he is.
ALEX: Don’t— don’t joke.
BOBBY: The water wars will— the water wars will start the day that the Hoover Dam is sold to General Electric. You heard it here first at the end of a very good episode of Tipping Pitches. Okay. So that— to remind everybody, dead last, we have the Panama Canal. I’d say we close it.
ALEX: Because you wouldn’t have used it or been proud to make it.
BOBBY: Precisely. I think those are good reasons.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Fourth, we have the Golden Gate Bridge. It’s just a bridge. It’s just— you can’t even see it half the time because of the fucking fog. Third, we have the Empire State Building. There’s the Mendoza Line of the rankings this week.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Good skyscraper. Second, we have the Transcontinental Railroad, and first, we have the Hoover Dam. And I’m remembering now what I said when we started out this segment, which was that, because we’re recording this five days in advance, that that infrastructure is going to crumble between now and when we actually publish this episode. And now, I feel really worried.
ALEX: Yep. Actually, you’re not gonna believe this, but the Hoover Dam was just tweeting on Twitter, and I think he’s canceled, so that’s a really bad look for you.
BOBBY: Hoover Dam just milkshake ducks himself.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Apparently, Coolidge signed a bill saying that they should start building it, and then FDR built it during the Great Depression. Coolidge.
ALEX: That’s cool.
BOBBY: The whole, like, Laissez-faire capitalism Republican guy who was in charge of the country during the collapse of the stock market in 1929. He was like, “We should build stuff. We should spend a lot of money to make a thing that the government owns.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: What is that like?
ALEX: Listen to the man’s actions, not his words, you know?
BOBBY: Cool— Coolidge further left than Biden?
ALEX: Laissez-faire market capitalist in the streets. Social democrat in the sheets.
BOBBY: That’s right. Socialist in the sheets. Exactly. All right. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Links in the description for the meetups, July 27th in Brooklyn, August 17th in Chicago. We’ll be back on the Patreon feed in a couple of days, and we’ll be back here on the main feed next week.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
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