Bobby and Alex discuss the increasingly confounding (and self-destructive) business plan of the Oakland A’s and owner John Fisher, before making fun of Hal Steinbrenner crying poor and the predictability of another betting scandal. Then, they answer listener questions about salary caps, MLB contraction, express written consent, and more. Finally, they close with another Untitled Ranking Segment about playground games.
Links:
Join the Tipping Pitches Patreon Tipping Pitches merchandise Songs featured in this episode: Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t tipping his pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, the month of May has been very generous to the Tipping Pitches Podcast, and you may be saying, “I don’t know, May, not really a huge month for baseball.” Always— some teams are settling in to their terrible seasons, namely the New York Mets and the Oakland Athletics.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Other teams are starting to separate themselves out from the pack, but really, people are not paying all that much attention to baseball nationally in the month of May, but instead they’re paying attention to basketball. But as you know, that is fortunate for us, because one basketball owner has been getting a lot of sideline camera time. And that sideline camera time this week gave us a beautiful video of friend and mascot and mentor, and there’s a deity of the show, Alex Rodriguez putting in some eye drops, because it looks like he’s having a tough time with allergies. Just like—
ALEX: Really?
BOBBY: —you and I. We started talking about each of our respective struggles with allergies before the show started, and I said, “Hold on, hold on, save this. This is good content for the cold open.”
ALEX: This is— this is— this is good content for our baseball podcast.
BOBBY: Well, this is how you suddenly indicate to listeners that, you know, you might not be on your A game because you’re just all stuffed up.
ALEX: Right. Well, it also—
BOBBY: Well, it might— it might be why you hear us sounding a little bit differently.
ALEX: It suggested about— and about, you know, seeing baseball in the real world, right? Only the grasses of a baseball field have this sort of impact on me emotionally, and certainly physically.
BOBBY: Yeah, I— I shared this video from the Tipping Pitches account, so if you’d like to go take a look at it. I’ll describe it here. We cut to Alex Rodriguez. This is during a Lynx-Liberty game, we cut to A-Rod on the sideline, who is the minority/maybe potentially majority owner, which we have discussed at great length of the Timberwolves and the Lynx. And at a very opportune moment, he starts putting in some eye drops, and then looks like he’s very upset, and crying.
ALEX: This is— so I haven’t seen this yet. It’s—
BOBBY: He just makes that perfect face that you make after you put in eye drops where you’re like—
ALEX: I think he did very well for himself.
BOBBY: —this is very upsetting for two seconds. This is very upsetting.
ALEX: It’s— it is. Well, he seems like he’s done it before, you know? And also that he’s trying to play it cool, right? He’s not doing too much wiping away of his eyes, dabbing with his shirt, which is something that I’m known to do if I put some eye drops in and then they— and they drip down. He’s just willing to kind of let it— let it dry right there. Even if it does mean a few uncomfortable seconds of— of camera time. And then I just want to say I— I’m so happy that there is a reason to have a camera trained on Alex Rodriguez at all times. Like, I feel— I feel truly blessed with— with the gifts that we have been given. I— I was seeing someone, like, do some analysis on, like, Alex Rodriguez versus Mark Cuban, you know, the different styles of like buying an NBA team. And I just know how much he loves—
BOBBY: Hold on, hold on, hold on.
ALEX: —being put next to Mark Cuban in this comparison.
BOBBY: Your internet is different than my internet. Where were you seeing this? Who were you seeing do this?
ALEX: I don’t— I don’t— I think it was a YouTube video [3:58]
[laughter]
ALEX: My preferred social media network of choice these days.
BOBBY: YouTube?
ALEX: Yeah. It’s a— well, it’s like I had to watch the— the, like, four hours Star Wars hotel review.
BOBBY: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
ALEX: You mi— you mi— missed that? All right [4:14] damn it.
BOBBY: Sorry. Sorry. That’s on me. That’s on me, dawg. My bad. I let you down. There’s a Star Wars Hotel? Should we go?
ALEX: Yeah, but there’— there’s con— it’s— it’s a— it’s a branding controversy.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: You know, it—
BOBBY: I was just regaling my family with the story of how seeing Rogue One as my first experience in a Dolby Theater. You know the Dolby Theater at AMC. No free ads.
ALEX: I’m familiar, yeah.
BOBBY: Where they have that Dolby Atmos surround sound mix and the big screen with the crisp, crisp colors. My first experience in Adobe Theater was none other than Rogue One. And, of course, Star Wars famous for its sound design and sound effects.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And hearing that lightsaber in the Dolby Atmos mix, it changed me. It changed me. It awoke something inside of me. I think we should have Dolby Atmos sound mixing for more things in life. You know, like when you’re at the grocery store, the little dings that you hear when they’re, like, trying to page someone, we should have that in like Dolby Atmos, you know?
ALEX: Got it. Okay.
BOBBY: When you’re on the subway and they’re like, “Next stop Atlantic.”
ALEX: Like, I want to be able to feel it like in my stomach.
BOBBY: Right, exactly. I want it to be surround sound of the voice. When they make the announcement that NYPD is available on the platform, I want it to reverberate through my brain.
ALEX: Isn’t it already kind of surround sound? There are speakers everywhere. Not that any of them work.
BOBBY: I think— yeah, I don’t know if that’s—
ALEX: I feel like that’s step one.
BOBBY: Making sure the speakers work?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: What is your favorite train— common train malfunction? Mine is when the doors— only one-half of the door opens.
ALEX: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: So people are always thrown off by that, because everybody already is trying to file in as the same time that people are trying to file out.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And then we cut that space in half to be only one door. It causes some really, really angry behavior.
ALEX: It is really— it’s really fun. I mean, people don’t know how to interact with subway doors.
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: Just point— just point blank. You hold them open. You— you try and jam your way through them.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: I— this is not a ma— malfunction, but I think my— my favorite subway quirk is the— the mystery liquid, that will— that will trickle down from one side of a car to another and you just kind of see people slowly noticing it one by one and, like, moving their belongings. No one does anything about it, because what can you do about the mystery liquid?
BOBBY: Well, it’s not like you’re just carrying an extra roll of paper towels on your person at all times.
ALEX: Maybe not you.
BOBBY: Are you carrying an extra roll of paper towels?
ALEX: You don’t know.
BOBBY: I’m recently—
ALEX: I could be—
BOBBY: —exploring so I avoid— and for the last couple of years, I’ve really been a crossbody bag guy, I put all my essentials in there.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: You know, my wallet, my keys, my headphones, my sunglasses. But I’ve recently been getting into potentially becoming more of a tote bag guy—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —when I go out to places because I’ve been doing a lot more reading recently, and I can’t read on my phone, or I can’t read on like a tablet or whatever, because my— it hurts my brain. So I’m reading, get this, Alex, bound books, physical pages.
ALEX: What do you mean? What do you mean?
BOBBY: Physical— you take it, there’s words on one side of the page, and then when you finish reading those words, you flip the page, and then there’s words on the other side of the page. And then as you progress through the book, you finish all the pages.
ALEX: Interesting.
BOBBY: So I’ve been bringing books with me in a tote bag.
ALEX: You should show me— show me one— show me one of those one time.
BOBBY: All right. Well, I have one right here, to my right. I’ll put it on camera for all of the YouTube viewers that don’t exist because we don’t have a YouTube. It’s called—
ALEX: Right, yes.
BOBBY: —When McKinsey Comes to Town.
ALEX: Ah. Remaining on brand.
BOBBY: Definitely making me feel very normal reading this book.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It’s not normal stuff that every company in America is doing.
ALEX: Yeah. Reading When McKinsey Comes to Town on the subway and shaking my head the whole time, so everyone knows that I disagree with what McKinsey’s doing.
BOBBY: Bravo. Well— well executed. Nice joke. Good work on your part. So I put that in the tote bag, so maybe I could throw a roll of paper towels in there, too.
ALEX: You know what?
BOBBY: For the mystery liquid.
ALEX: I— I think you’d be seen as a hero amongst New Yorkers.
BOBBY: I definitely wouldn’t be on someone’s Tikock— TikTok content.
ALEX: You absolutely would. Someone would take a video of it and be like, “Look at this man, and now, he’s cleaning up the subway.” And then you’d get like a 1,000 people clowning you for being like, “Why are you on your hands and knees?”
BOBBY: Right. Well, I don’t know that I would go to that length. I might just throw the whole paper towel down there and do the all— you move it back and forth with your shoe move.
ALEX: Oh, yeah.
BOBBY: Where it’s like a liquid that you don’t want to touch with your hands. That’s how you do it.
ALEX: Right. Mailing it in. I see.
BOBBY: I told you about the time that I was one time on my way to the movie theater when I sat in a mystery liquid. That was one of the more upsetting experiences in my life. I didn’t look down before I sat on the seat, and then I—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —started to feel my butt was wet. And then when I did look down, it was just kind of like— I would describe it as like Coca-Cola colored.
ALEX: Okay. I was gonna wonder if you’d made a determination.
BOBBY: I’m hoping that it was Coca-Cola, but I doubt it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: In my brain canon, in my head canon, we’re just gonna go with the fact that it was Coca-Cola. But you know what I did?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I was like— I’m too disgusted to continue on and go to the movie theater, so I turned around, and I went home, and I changed. And then I sprinted back—
ALEX: What, are you just gonna sit there, sit there in the liquid?
BOBBY: No, you can’t do that. So then I sprinted back to the subway, and I made it to the movie in time. I actually made to the movie 10 minutes late, but they let me in. So I considered it a win. I was very, very just sweaty and upset by the time I got to the movie theater.
ALEX: Well, they knew. They were like— they were like— with any luck, this will end up in a 3UP 3DOWN eventually, as probably part of Bobby’s movie highlights, so—
BOBBY: So you probably—
ALEX: PR for them, really.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. Free PR for Alamo Drafthouse downtown Brooklyn.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: One of the worst movie locations in the United States of America. They could use all the help they can get. All right. Clearly, we have a lot of stuff to get to this week based on this intro.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: Like, we just have a lot of really important stuff to hammer out. So we’re going to talk about some update— some updates on the A’s stadium. What else is new? We have an owner crying poor, and then we have some betting scandals. So it’s all a lot of really new stuff this week. But before we get to all of that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: All right, Alex. We have a Patreon episode coming later this week, Patreon exclusive episode where we, as Alex just mentioned, we do 3UP 3DOWN every couple of weeks on the Patreon feed. Longtime listeners will remember3UP 3DOWN where— as a segment, where we go back and forth, we each have three things that bring us baseball joy— three things that bring us joy in the “baseball world” and three things that are sapping our joy in the “baseball world.” “Baseball world” in quotes here, because it’s really become much more of like a, “What’s going on?” Kind of segment.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But if you’re looking for that, you can find that at patreon.com/tippingpitches. Thank you to this week’s new patrons, James, and also I wanted to give a special shout out to everybody who has upgraded from a lower tier up to the top tier to get those bonus episodes. I see you, I appreciate you. It’s just really hard to kind of keep track of who those people are, so I’m not gonna give you a specific shout out every week. But this is the blanket shout out to those people. Hope you are enjoying your Patreon exclusive bonus episodes. First topic this week, the A’s allegedly are going somewhere. I’m not sure that I believe it, but alas, they have— what now? They have sold their share of the Coliseum.
ALEX: They have, yes.
BOBBY: Because they are going to Sacramento, for sure. They’re for sure doing that, right? We’re for sure that everybody— we’re going there, and then after we go there, we’re for sure going to Las Vegas, correct? Just so I have it all straight—
ALEX: Yes. No, I’ve— I’ve seen the renderings for the upgrades they’re gonna make, like it’s all— it is definitely happening. I’ve seen the uniforms that— that don’t say anything on them.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: And I’ve already bought four, so I’m— I’m in.
BOBBY: Tell us, Alex, as you do so well, about municipal ownership, ta— tax districts. Are we going to hit on any tax district— tax districts in this segment? Special tax districts?
ALEX: I don’t think we need— I don’t think we need to, thankfully. Yeah. So after many years of dragging their feet and— and back and forth with cities and— and counties and development groups, the A’s are selling their— their share, their half of the Oakland columns— Coliseum site to the African-American Sports and Entertainment Group, which is a consortium of local investors. And— and their thinking is they’re going to turn it into a sort of mixed use development, entertainment project, convention center, et cetera. You know, what big cities tend to do these days. But it is kind of an— an interesting coda on the A’s presence in— in Oakland, because for the longest time, they held on to this share of the site, And people had a lot of questions about what that meant and what they intended to do with it. Now, we know John Fisher is pursuing a 1.5 billion stadium in Las Vegas, and he has to come up with money for that, eventually, I think. That’s usually how those things work.
BOBBY: Money is one of the things on the list of things that he has to come up with. He also has to come up with the land and the— and the people who are going to give him the money and also the—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —approval and the zoning. And also the team has to come too, so just a— that’s—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: you know, right off the bat, just a short list of things he needs.
ALEX: Right. Like, a lot of those are details that can be ironed out, right?
BOBBY: Right. It can be—
ALEX: And they’ll figure it out, the land.
BOBBY: Exactly.
ALEX: What it’s— what is the land?
BOBBY: Well, they’re going to do something new and innovative in the stadium building space, which is that they’re going to build the stadium first ,and they’re going to drag it like one of those like, you know—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —homes on a tractor trailer into Las Vegas.
ALEX: Prefab baseball stadiums. Just— just—
BOBBY: I mean, that’s—
ALEX: —airlifted in via helicopter.
BOBBY: Essentially, that is as plausible of a plan as what they have right now.
ALEX: Yes. Yes. 100%. Alongside this are— and— and we alluded to this, are— is the news that— that Rob Manfred came out with, which is that—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —the A’s are going to construct a— an adjoining building to Sutter Health Park, which is the Sacramento Minor League stadium where they’re going to play next year and maybe forever. As a— as a means of serving as the home clubhouse for the team, they’re going to make other renovations, like adding new turf, adding club seating if— as upgrading videoboard quality, I don’t know. Sure. Whatever. These are— it’s a long list of things that they say they’re going to do, that is not really going to bring this ballpark to Major League caliber status.
BOBBY: Camera quality. Don’t forget camera quality.
ALEX: Oh, camera quality, yes.
BOBBY: Right. We have to shoot in 4K for all of the people—
ALEX: Frankly—
BOBBY: —who don’t want to watch the A’s.
ALEX: —I would rather they shoot it in like Minor League Baseball— like there is something that is so organic—
BOBBY: 4 ADP.
ALEX: —organic about the 4 ADP like shaky handheld camera that most—
BOBBY: I don’t think it is 4 ADPM. Let’s give them some [15:38]
ALEX: Okay. That’s a little better.
BOBBY: It’s like 720 at minimum.
ALEX: But no, I wa— I— I want two camera angles, one in centerfield and one behind the plate.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And you just switch back and forth between the two of them. Why do you need the rest of them?
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: To what? To zoom in on Alex Rodriguez?
BOBBY: Do you think Alex Rodriguez will attend any of these games?
ALEX: No, I— no.
BOBBY: I don’t— I don’t think so either.
ALEX: Unless— unless John Fisher is trying to court him as an owner.
BOBBY: If you had to ballpark it, no pun intended, although maybe pun intended, how much money do you think those improvements will cost? New turf, new home clubhouse, which will be an entirely standalone building, club seating, video boards, camera quality, as well as all of the other infrastructural improvements they will need to make to that area to accommodate those things more broadly. We’re talking, what, like 50 to $100 million?
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say in the— in the high 10s of millions of dollars, jacking up the price tag for this whole endeavor.
BOBBY: That’s before you factor in that the A’s are running the lowest payroll in baseball, and they will have to, at some point, like sign some players maybe.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: In order to draw anyone to see this team in Sacramento, or in the future Las Vegas. And that’s just for the three-year stopover that we’re ta—alleged three years stopover that we’re talking about in Sacramento. All the while, they’re sell— selling their portion of the Coliseum, so they’re burning that potential backout option, burning that potential bridge. They’re really saying like, “No, we’re really leaving Oakland. We really are, I swear. We really are.” I just don’t— like, I find this to be so confusing. What’s going on here? I don’t— I really don’t know— we’re in Masterful Gambit, Sir territory for John Fisher, where it’s like, I don’t even really know what your endgame is here—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —My dude. Like, you’re not improving the cash flow of the team. In fact, you’re going in the opposite direction. You’re like, “What— is any possible way that I can sign myself up to cost myself hundreds of millions of dollars over the next five years?”
ALEX: Yeah, well, they’re— they’re leaving a established MLB market, so they’re losing their local media deal on all—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —the revenue that that was— the— the 70 some million dollars that that brings in every year.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: So, like, again, they— they’re kind of shooting themselves in the foot left and— and right at a time when they’re trying to make this franchise look like a reasonable investment vehicle in the long term.
BOBBY: But also— but that’s what I mean, though, like, what— what is the goal? Is the goal to increase the franchise value? Because that doesn’t help unless you sell to the team.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And what they’re doing right now is not increasing the franchise value. At what stage of this process am I supposed to see the thing that increases the franchise value? Like, you don’t even have, like, the sports business guys being like, “Well, when that team gets to Vegas, its franchise—”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: “—value is gonna go through the roof.” Like, those hacks are not even on board with your plan. So I really think that he is just like, one man alone in a room having a cup of three people tell him, “Yes, yes, yes, this is a great idea.” And—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —quite literally, everybody else 99.99999999% of the population is like, “Dude, no, this is not gonna work.” This is— clearly, the bottom is gonna fall out at this at some point. And I guess the only thing to do at that point will be to cut his losses, and sell the team, and keep them in Oakland. That’s why I keep saying—
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: —I don’t think they’re gonna leave. But he’s depreciated— he’s depressed the franchise value with his actions over the last four years. So I— I don’t know. I guess round of applause, sir, you maybe pocketed a little bit of extra revenue for the last three years. You offset that apparently on stadium renderings that cost you $100 million. I don’t know where you were going to have those drawn.
ALEX: Yeah, well, they’ve really— he’s really backed himself into a corner with this. I mean, kind of alongside this, and I think maybe we mentioned this before, but the league instituted this sort of flip tax, that is basically—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —going to take a cut of— that is basically implemented to disincentivize Fisher from immediately flipping the team after building a new ballpark, right? And— and using the franchise value, so it’ll take 20% of the sale price, you know, if it gets sold between now and I think 2029. And then it’ll kind of decrease from there, 10%, you know, 8, whatever, through 2030 something. So from every angle that you look at it, I don’t even see how this is a good investment for, like, a bank, or a private equity firm who is looking to buoy, you know, these— these efforts, because this is what Fisher is doing, right? It’s— you can ei— you’re either taking out a loan from a bank, and saying, “Yes, we will pay this back later, because look at the good business I’m running, that is going to go up in franchise value, and these returns will pay for themselves.”
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Or you are selling a minority stake in the team, which has been talked about. I mean, he’s— he is courting potential minority ownership partners right now that I think, if I recall correctly, are valuing the team at something like $2 billion, right? Which is way more than—
BOBBY: Right. But, like, giving away equity, though, it’s like cutting into whatever profit that you’d be gaining— giving away equity now is ge— cutting into whatever profit you’d be gaining by increasing the franchise value and selling it three years from now. Like, it’s just—
ALEX: Yeah. Well—
BOBBY: Did I just not go to, like, business school and I don’t know what he’s trying to do here? Or is he actually just like the dumbest person alive? Answer that. That— that’s the question I have.
ALEX: It is like a coin flip at this point, right? Because if you’re— if you are trying to court investors in your team, you are trying to show them that you have a viable business on your hand.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: That at some point, ideally, in the near future, you are going to make money. And I just don’t see a clear path to that beyond him turning back to his family and saying, “I actually need more money.”
BOBBY: Well, that’s always been the thing that— that’s— what? Like, that’s the safety net, I guess.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Is that he can say, “Oh, I’ll sell some Gap stock.” But like, how much Gap stock do you have to keep papering over the mistakes that you’re making with the Oakland A’s? Of course, we know that, like, JP Morgan, and— and Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, like all these people want to give sports owners money. They want their money to be tied up in big, huge projects like this, because it gives them prestige, and it puts them in the right rooms, and it gives them business partnerships, and connections, and leverage over some of the richest people in America. And it’s every— you scratch my back, I scratch yours, whatever, right? But at some point, if you’re really actually not making any money, because the A’s are pulling themselves out of all of the things that would be making them money. The gate receipts are not going to be able to ke— keep up with the expenses of improving Sutter Health Park and the TV deal is being undercut by this move. And how do you even negotiate the next TV deal if you don’t even know where you’re going to be? Like, if you don’t even have the guarantee that you’re going to be in Las Vegas to— to— to unlock these public funds that Vegas has set aside because they have to hit all of these different benchmarks to be able to prove that they can get this money from Las Vegas first. I mean, I know that it’s been approved and has been pushed through and they’ve lobbied everybody at every stage of the process to be— to be able to make that possible. But there are still things that they need to do to prove that they are actually putting a park there. They don’t just get that money and they’re like, “Yeah, actually, we’re not going to Las Vegas.” I can— I don’t think that money could cross state lines, guys. Not sure how that works with that. Last time I checked, the state legislature cannot push money into California from Las Vegas. So, like, at some point, it just becomes like a— a straight up question of whether or not you can service all of the dead. And I know that like we’ve— we— I spent a truly deranged amount of time in our CBA Breakdown pod talking about what the debt servicing rules are supposed to be for owners in a normal situation. And obviously, Manfred can make a case-by-case exception for that, but like, how much appetite, honestly, does Rob Manfred and the rest of the— the 29 other owners? Because it’s really not totally Rob Manfred’s choice. It’s like— if the other owners are like, “Okay, this is— this is getting to be ridiculous for making exceptions for the A’s.” How much appetite is there for that? Because it’s like— it’s getting to be absurd at this point. And if you’re just gonna take on a 100 million more— $100 million more of debt to make the most beautiful Minor League stadium ever, what is that accomplishing for three years of baseball? Because for all that, you want to say about the fact that, like, loans are available for free at all times to these guys, more or less, that’s actually not really true. Like, their debt to income ratio, I would guess without having seen their balance books, breaking news, I have not seen the balance books, the balance sheets of the Oakland Athletics, though I wish I would. If you work for the A’s and you want to leak that to Tipping Pitches, please contact us, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. I would guess that they are among the worst of any modern Major League Baseball team, which leads, I think, some people— I saw— I saw a reporter, an editor for The Athletic, worrying that, like, the only path forward is contracting the team, or temporarily contracting the team, and that— this is actually where it’s starting to get really dark, because he’s basically just, like, boxed himself out of any reasonable financial path forward.
ALEX: Yeah. And— and while contraction seems crazy, like I don’t— I— I don’t think it’s a path that MLB wants to follow, or even really necessarily makes sense here, but like nothing else makes sense about this, either. And I think what’s worrying— what should be worrying to John Fisher is the fact that he’s been trying to court this money for, what, roughly a year now, that we’ve heard that he’s kind of going to banks and looking for these investments. And so, like, news is out, right, that John Fisher, the billionaire owner of the Oakland A’s is looking for investments in his baseball team to build a new stadium. And the fact that no fish have tugged on his line yet, or that he hasn’t hooked any, like with each passing day— this may be seems obvious to say, but with each passing day, the likelihood of him securing that I feel like goes down. Because the longer it’s out there, the more people are evaluating these option— whether John Fisher has approached you or not, you’re saying, “Hey, well, is this an— an investment we should pursue? Should we take a look at this?” And the more time it’s out there, and the more radio silence there is, the more that’s an indicator to everyone else that—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —maybe this investment is actually not a good one. And so I think he’s going to have a harder and harder time convincing folks that, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that— I know that Morgan Stanley looked in my books and wasn’t really interested in this, but trust me, JP, Mr. Morgan, this— this investment is a good one.” I— I— I think that argument gets harder to make with each passing day, which is why it feels more and more likely that he either turns to his brothers and says, “Help me out here,” or is forced to sell the team. And whether that is forced because from his own business perspective, he thinks there’s no viable path forward, or because the league says, “This is turning into an embarrassment. You have a baseball team that now no longer has a home because of your high jinks, and we’d like it to have one.” Right? Which is why I think that like a forced sale is not out of the question yet. Even though— I don’t think Manfred wants to do it because this whole thing is quickly becoming a— a stain on his legacy. And I’m sure he would much rather the path be cleared to Las Vegas to say, “Hey, look at I got one last thing over the line before my commissionership ended.”
BOBBY: Honestly, I think that like the idea of a for sale, if you could tell Rob Manfred that it would have no— no ripple effect, where like people— no— no owner would care. It would not change the perspective of what the commissioner’s role is. I’m sure he would be like, “Yeah, that— that’d be great. I— I’m tired of calling local politicians and telling them that I will capture their families and put them in basements, you know? I’m tired of doing that.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Parody. That’s parody. Rob Manfred has never done anything like that. But I just think that that’s like— to Rob Manfred saying you have to force an owner to se— to sell is the same as saying to you and me like, “You guys have to fly to the moon and do the podcast next week.” Like that’s just not—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —reasonable. It’s not— that’s not what—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —he does. And—
ALEX: Yep.
BOBBY: —it’s— and the other owners probably don’t want the idea of a forced sale either, because they’re all like psycho right-wing libertarians, and they think they should be able to do whatever they want with their team, including, and especially, running it into the ground in this special way that they want to, you know? Like, what you’re John Fisher, and what is your hope? To grow the A’s into a brand that is as beautiful and beloved as the New York Yankees. And what did we get when you have the Yankees? You have the owner of the Yankees, Hal Steinbrenner being like, “We don’t have enough money to afford our own payroll,” which is a lie, of course. It’s the other thing that it’s an— the other thing that we wanted to talk about this week was Hal Steinbrenner crying poor and com— getting out ahead of next offseason, basically. And saying, “Hey, we can’t pay to keep this team fully together.” I guess trying to plant a soft landing spot for an eventuality where they don’t have the highest bid for Juan Soto, I guess, and they lose out on him in his free agency next— next offseason, next winter. But what if you start like— if you start telling owners what they can and can’t say, how they can and can’t run their team, what their financing looks like, like what the best path forward is, then it— it quickly starts to unravel and you start to realize, like, none of these guys are running their team like they’re supposed to be running their team in terms of— from a business perspective. Like, for—
Alex: Right. That’s— that’s [30:14]
Bobby: —sustainability of the business perspective, yes.
ALEX: Yeah, because they say, “Well, if— if this guy over here had his team put on the market, because he wasn’t running it well,” that— that is a signal to other owners, for better for worse, that the same thing could happen to you, however unlikely that is, right? And— but— but on the other side of it, I’m like, this is— why else have a monopoly? Like— like this is the reason why you control this whole ecosystem is so you can do stuff like this.
BOBBY: I agree. I completely agree. It’s like we should be saying at all times, is Hal Steinbrenner the best person to be owning the Yankees? And the answer is no.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Sorry, you have to sell the team. How many— here’s a question for you. How many owners— if you polled the fence, how many owners would pass a democratic vote to keep them as the owner of the team?
ALEX: That’s a good question. I think you would probably get a dozen, at least— at least half the league maybe.
BOBBY: That’s a lot. I was gonna say, like, five. Who are the— who are the easy ones in your mind?
ALEX: I mean, Orioles.
BOBBY: Yep.
ALEX: Phillies. I think the Rangers.
BOBBY: [31:34] wow.
ALEX: You know, I think that like teams—
BOBBY: Bleak but true.
ALEX: The fan memory is so tied to like, “What have you done for me lately?” That like if your owner put together a good team and you made a run last year, like why change the formula, right? But I guess now—
BOBBY: Dodgers.
ALEX: —that I look at more teams that it’s— maybe that number is a little high. Yes, the Dodgers. I guess on a lot of these other teams is kind of a coin flip. The Braves.
BOBBY: But are the Braves like— no, I guess you’re right. The— the Braves really just like Anthopoulos. The Braves fans like Anthopoulos.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I feel like they could take their [32:13]
ALEX: Yeah. But they’re like— it’s a mea— it’s a mean—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah, it’s a means to an end, right?
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: It’s like if you— as long as you stay out of our way and let us do our thing, great.
BOBBY: Yeah. I’ll accept that, Braves probably.
ALEX: I don’t know. The— I mean, the Padres are in a weird spot. But for a while there, I think the Padres fit that mold.
BOBBY: Yeah. I almost feel like they’re DQ’d.
ALEX: You know, speak as— speak as a— speak as a Mets fan, what do you think?
BOBBY: I think you— I would have to say yes.
ALEX: As in, yes, I want to keep him on board?
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Yeah, I agree.
BOBBY: Knowing that— what would happen it wouldn’t be like you— my— and my hypothetical, I’m not saying like you can remove the owner and choose anybody you want to replace them.
ALEX: Right. Right.
BOBBY: It’s just like you— you vote out the owner and whoever comes in can buy it. So like—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —you’re just opening yourself up to whatever idiot comes along with $3 billion.
ALEX: Right. Like, the standard baseline, like, billionaire owner.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Zero wins above replacement. Your AAA call up.
BOBBY: AAA call up. That’s fun. Someone like Alex Rodriguez.
ALEX: Right, yes. Exactly.
BOBBY: Calling out [33:09] minority owners of the [33:11]
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: Yeah. So I think that the Mets would probably be in there. I mean, Steve Cohen literally said, “Here’s $350 million a year.” Like, what else do you want?
ALEX: Yes. Yeah. You cannot, in good conscience, like vote any other way.
BOBBY: Probably, I think that right now, the Twins, the Pohlads would probably pass inspection at the moment.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
BOBBY: I could be wrong about that, but like I think that they’re above average. Those are the only ones that I feel confident in, frankly.
ALEX: Yeah, I— I probably agree with that. I— and this is where I think it comes down to, like, how the team’s most recent series went. Like, are the— are the Brewers on a streak? Sure, Attanasio can stick around.
BOBBY: No, he’s done. He’s— he’s not good.
ALEX: You think?
BOBBY: He’s not good.
ALEX: I mean—
BOBBY: He’s broke and also he will never get out of the small market mentality. That’s like the whole thing. I think that they would vote him out, yes.
ALEX: All right. Hell yeah. I mean, you know, the Ricketts are getting voted out.
BOBBY: Well, definitely. Yes. They’re dismissed.
ALEX: Nutting— Nutting is gone.
BOBBY: The obvious ones are— yeah, Nutting is gone.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Jerry’s gone. I mean, Arte— like 90% of people would vote him out, probably. It’d be like the most—
ALEX: Probably, yeah.
BOBBY: —agreed upon thing in American history.
ALEX: Yep. Yeah.
BOBBY: I feel like maybe Sherman might stay. Royals fans seem to be happy with the correction and things are going.
ALEX: Interesting, yeah. I— things seem to be going okay.
BOBBY: The Bobby Witt, Jr. extension, they’re like, “We’re— we’re cooking right now.”
ALEX: Yeah. Sure. Right. But— but again, also depends on whether or not he fleeces the city for his own couple billion for another ballpark.
BOBBY: That’s true, but I’m talking about the whole fan base, you know, everyone.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Not just people and those people—
ALEX: I know. I think those people like don’t— yeah.
BOBBY: —woke lefty corner over here. The Red Sox owners would be way gone there. They’re so done with that ownership group.
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah.
BOBBY: Even though they’ve gotten them like five rings, but whatever. And I think that the—
ALEX: I—
BOBBY: I think the Yankees owners— I think Yankees fans would be like, “If it was George, easily keep him.” But Hal—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —it’s like, “We’re done with this shit. Someone could do this better.”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: The— it’s the literal Yankees, you know?
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: You’re playing with unlimited money.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: And— and still, you’re getting stuff like Hal Steinbrenner coming out saying, “It’s,” quote, “simply not sustainable for us financially after 2024.” Why put so much pressure on yourself as an owner? Why put so much pressure on every calendar year? Being like, “Well, we can’t keep running a payroll like this, so this is really the year.” You know, it’s like— it’s not— it’s impractical. I just don’t understand it. You don’t need to say stuff like this. Just don’t say stuff like this. Just quietly cut the payroll by $7 million next year.
ALEX: Yeah, I know.
BOBBY: Don’t come out in May when your team is— has the best record in the American League, and be like, “No, we have to do this.” It’s just— it’s such an unforced error. Such an unforced error.
ALEX: Yeah. He says, “I don’t believe I should have a $300 million payroll to win a championship.” Why not?
BOBBY: I don’t care what you believe.
ALEX: If that’s— if that’s what it takes.
BOBBY: We’re not talking about religion.
ALEX: You haven’t— you haven’t been unable to do it without it, so—
BOBBY: So true. So true. Why don’t you try $120 million payroll? You— you want to so bad.
ALEX: Uh-huh. See how that goes.
BOBBY: You want to so bad. You want to do the Rays so bad. Why don’t you just try it?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Why— why not?
ALEX: See how that goes. You can try it as long as you sit right by the dugout for every game. You have to take—
BOBBY: Don’t run from it.
ALEX: —take it all from the Yankees fans sitting around here.
BOBBY: Yeah, don’t sit up there in the— the Bank of America booth up there. No. Yankee Stadium presented by Bank of America, presented by Mas—
ALEX: Is it actually?
BOBBY: Dude, every— every ad in there is like Bank of America. It’s— it’s crazy.
ALEX: Yeah, that’s fair.
BOBBY: Same thing with Dodger Stadium. And Yankee Stadium has a lot of MasterCard ads.
ALEX: Yeah, they’re big on MasterCard.
BOBBY: They love MasterCard, the official card of Yankee Stadium.
ALEX: Whatever that means.
BOBBY: We’re getting really loose with the term pres— I know— I think I said this on the podcast the other day, but like presenting sponsors, what are you presenting?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It’s like when you open the MLB app, half the time it’s like, “Presented by, you know, John Deere.” I’m like, “It’s an app.”
ALEX: They didn’t do anything to present this.
BOBBY: This can’t be presented by a lawnmower. Like, it’s just not. It’s just ridiculous. Okay. Speaking of sponsorships, should we talk about David Fletcher betting on sports [37:36]?
ALEX: Sure. Yeah.
BOBBY: MLB has opened an investigation into former Los Angeles Angels infielder David Fletcher, alleging that he gambled with an illegal bookie. Not just any illegal bookie, Alex, Matthew Boyer, who you might know accepted wagers from Ippei Mizuhara, and was running an illegal book in the state of California. It’s just like— this was so easy to predict. Like, it wasn’t easy to predict how it came about. It wasn’t easy to predict anything with Ohtani’s interpreter—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —Ippei Mizuhara. It wasn’t easy to predict like the illegal nature of the sportsbook, but something with betting and violating the rules was so easy to see coming. And when— when David Fletcher gets suspended for what he did, which he will, we will be able to cross that off the Tipping Pitches 2024 Bingo Card.
ALEX: To your point, this was all very obvious. In the story, it— it notes— and I’m reading from ESPN’s report on this, right? That one of Fletcher’s close friends, Colby Schultz, who’s a former minor— Minor leaguer, also bet with the same bookie and did in fact wager on baseball, which Fletcher didn’t. And so— and again, like the timeline of it all is a little unclear, although it’s in notes that he did bet on Angels games while Fletcher was playing. And so, like, wha— the— this is where it all starts to get really murky, because it was never going to be a black and white issue of a player bet on baseball, and we can ban him or, “No, he didn’t bet on baseball, so he’s good.” It’s gonna be a lot of these stories where it’s a—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —friend of a current player that on games that he was, like, playing in and he himself was a former player. And so, yes, he’s not actively throwing his own baseball games. But the integrity of the sport went out the door as soon as you—
BOBBY: Oh, years ago. Yeah.
ALEX: —as you as you opened up this possibility [39:43]
BOBBY: Well, he was never going to be like Rowdy Tellez logs onto FanDuel and is like, “I will bet today—”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “—on my team to lose—”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: “—from my own account, from rowdytellez@gmail.com.” Like, that was never gonna happen.
ALEX: Right. @brewers.com.
BOBBY: I don’t think he’s on the Brewers anymore.
ALEX: Oh, no, he’s on the Pirates.
BOBBY: Pirates, yeah. He just feel like a Brewer, though, you know?
ALEX: Yeah, in my heart.
BOBBY: Big, bulky first baseman who can’t play defense and occasionally has—
ALEX: You know what he does?
BOBBY: Occasionally slugs.
ALEX: He gets on base.
BOBBY: Does he? Does he still?
ALEX: Kind of.
BOBBY: How sure are you about that?
ALEX: I don’t know. I watched Moneyball again this weekend, so it’s fresh.
BOBBY: Did you? Five stars?
ALEX: My partner did and— and, of course, I sat down and watch the whole thing.
BOBBY: I watched The Big Short last night, so we’re just locked in—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —on Michael Lewis.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-huh.
BOBBY: When you were talking about Morgan Stanley, the whole time I was like, “How— how likely was it that we got two major banks that are not part of the same conglomerate, that have Morgan as an operative title?” There’s JP Morgan and Chase, and there’s Morgan Stanley.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Morgan and Stanley merged together, because I think Morgan and Stanley used to be separate. I don’t know, though. Well, I was just thinking about that, because I was watching Big Short last night, and Morgan Stanley is the parent bank of Mark Baum’s investment firm—
ALEX: Oh, right.
BOBBY: —who was one of the shorts, who’s played by Steve Carell in the movie. And there’s a question of, is Morgan Stanley is going to go out of business? Because they have $15 billion worth of exposure when the housing bubble bursts. You know, $15 billion. Not sure if you keep that—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —much capital on hand to [41:25]
ALEX: I hate it when I have $15 billion of exposure during a financial crisis.
BOBBY: I know, that’s— that’s—
ALEX: I hate that ruins my [41:32]
BOBBY: I much prefer to be in the sort of like $1 to $3 billion of exposure range. That’s right—
ALEX: Yeah, it’s easy.
BOBBY: That’s my happy— my sweet spot.
ALEX: Light work.
BOBBY: $1 to $3 billion—
ALEX: I do—
BOBBY: —of exposure is like you’re down one, two in the count, but you still might foul. A couple off and get on [41:48] $15 billion of exposure.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: You somehow—
ALEX: Yeah, that’s— that’s facing Mason Miller. Down 0-2, what are you going to do? Where are you gonna go?
BOBBY: You’re down 0-7 to Mason Miller.
ALEX: Yeah. Right. It was over before it began.
BOBBY: If you get a hit in the next two pitches, the inning is over.
ALEX: Right. They’ll take you right back to the— to the farm upstate.
BOBBY: I would rather be at the farm upstate than face Mason Miller.
ALEX: Than in the box, yeah.
BOBBY: I’d be the first person to just abstain from a Major League Baseball at that.
ALEX: I forfeit.
BOBBY: Someone else go on my place so we bat out of order, and I’m automatically out. Please. I don’t— I mean, I don’t really have much else on this David Fletcher thing. Do you? Do you have like a take? Come at— come at me with like a— with like a good counter take. Like, what’s wrong with David Fletcher, betting on other sports illegally?
ALEX: I mean, what is wrong with it? Like I have—
BOBBY: Well, like, in comparison to what they say you’re allowed to do, which is bet on other sports—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —just through these apps.
ALEX: Right, exa— I’m kind of like— I— I don’t— so he has his own guy, so he’s got a buddy. You know what they’re doing? They’re supporting small business owners.
BOBBY: Right. Keeps the economy going. What’s the Biden thing? It’s like help small biz— like grows the economy. What was he talking about?
ALEX: Probably something like that. Sounds— sounds likely.
BOBBY: I was recently looking for the photo of you meeting John Fisher.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: To remember a simpler time.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And in searching for that photo, because I just looked— I searched Alex in my Photos app, because my Photos app knows who you are, naturally.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: The thing that needs to exist. The facial recognition within my Photos app, so useful.
ALEX: I agree.
BOBBY: And I came across the photo of us at the Joe Biden rest stop, saluting.
ALEX: The longtail [43:49] rest stop.
BOBBY: Jokes from 2021 just don’t hit anymore. You know, they’re just not— it’s just not the same. Nothing was the same.
ALEX: I will note that— that on my iPhone, in my Photos app among my—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: —people and pets, there is one Alex Rodriguez featured, because I have enough photos with him on my phone. And when I click onto it— because I also have him as a contact, of course, you know? It says, “Found in contacts. Is this A-Rod?” And I say, “Yes, it is.”
BOBBY: It— it’s really good sometimes to let people know that not only do you talk the talk, but you walk the walk.
ALEX: I do. Unfortunately, the first photo that comes up is A-Rod with Trump at a wedding at Mar-a-Lago. Yeah. You take the good with the bad.
BOBBY: I have in my people and pets, it’s just maybe five of my closest friends, you and one— you included, and then just my immediate family. I don’t have any celebrities in here. So maybe I need to step my game up?
ALEX: Yeah, you’re not— you’re not curating you’re A-Rod feed like I am. I have people—
BOBBY: People do send it to you.
ALEX: It’s the reason— it’s the reason I don’t let people go through my phone. I’m like— all the A-Rod photos would be so embarrassing. Oh, my God. “Why do you have him shirtless seven times?” “I don’t— it was— it was for a bit. I can’t explain it.”
BOBBY: “It was for a bit. I can’t explain it.” Yeah, you have to be a lo— like you have to be a year-long listener of the podcast to understand it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Do you have a lot of photos of Martin Scorsese? I’m sure that if I went in—
ALEX: Your own personal patron saint.
BOBBY: Right. I’m sure if I went in there and actually tagged them, it would add him as a— as a contact.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Well, this has been a tremendous review of our Photos app. I just think that this is what people come here for, honestly.
ALEX: I think so, yeah.
BOBBY: All right. Let’s do a couple of listener questions and then we’ll do the— the closing segment, which we got a lot of submissions about— for names—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —that I want to— that I want to talk through with you, but we’ll do a couple questions first. First question, this comes from Joel. “Thoughts on Anne Hathaway’s decision to support John Fisher in his war on Bay Area baseball by wearing Gap on the red carpet.” Assuming this was for— what— what is the name of the— Anyone But You?
ALEX: No. No, it’s—
BOBBY: Oh, fuck. That’s the [46:14] what is it called?
ALEX: That’s the— yes, I know. The Idea of You.
BOBBY: I watched— Idea of You. See, those are close.
ALEX: They are close.
BOBBY: I watched that movie. I didn’t see Anyone But You, but I did watch The Idea of You. Did you see it?
ALEX: I— I did as well, yeah.
BOBBY: What’d you think?
ALEX: You know? It had an Anne Hathaway in it, so I was happy with it.
BOBBY: But you’re okay with her supporting John Fisher by wearing Gap on the red carpet?
ALEX: Gap on the red carpet, interesting. Do you have like photo evidence of this? Was it just like a— a Gap sweatshirt?
BOBBY: I’m— I’m gonna go ahead and Google it, although we know that that doesn’t really mean much these days. It appears she wore a Gap. Custom dress from Gap, designed by its new creative director Zac Posen. We’re doing exactly what they want us to do, say names and shit like that.
ALEX: I know. I know. That poser
BOBBY: [47:04] I like the dress. It’s a nice dress. It’s white, single shoulder. I don’t know terms. She also wore Bulgari bling, according to a people.com article.
ALEX: Sure. I want you to go— do— go menswear guy on— on her fit.
BOBBY: I gotta say menswear guy— it’s— it’s— I admire commitment. That’s one thing I admire. I admire commitment to the bit. I admire his depth of knowledge. I— what I will say is it is genuinely weird how many times he has tweeted the photos of the birth of Venus and the statue of David. Like, that is— it’s too many times to have tweeted those photos.
ALEX: We say it as big fans of both, all of [47:59]
BOBBY: Huge— I’m a huge fan of both of those seminal works of art. You know, the— the world was changed by those works of art. You don’t need to tweet the photos that often, we know. We understand that— the traditional vision of masculinity is that the shoulders are wider than the hips. And that’s— a traditional vision of femininity is that the hips are wider than the shoulders. We know, we get it. We got it. Good. Okay? We know. But pandering to your audience is fine. That’s what we’re doing here, too. He’s doing it for his audience and we’re doing it for ours. I’m not going to knock his flow.
ALEX: Of course.
BOBBY: He’s doing his thing. I would like to wear suits. That’s my review of the menswear guy.
ALEX: Would you? Okay.
BOBBY: I’d— I’d like to have more of an opportunity to wear suits. I feel good when I wear a suit. I feel horrible when I wear a tie though, so I know menswear guy has a lot of thoughts about that.
ALEX: Yeah. He will— he’d— he said something the other day about how many older folks, like style icon Fred Astaire, and I’m like, “Uh-huh. I— I’d like to dress like him, I think. I don’t know. It looks like a suit. Looks like it fits him. He does look like a styling man. I’d love to be able to walk around and saying, ‘Fred Astaire is my style icon.’
BOBBY: I wouldn’t— I don’t need to say stuff like that.
ALEX: I think people might stop letting me into their homes.
BOBBY: I mean, I understand—
ALEX: But I probably shouldn’t have been sneaking in anyway, so—
BOBBY: If you look the part, maybe you could become friends with John Fisher.
ALEX: It’s true. That’s—
BOBBY: There is that one paparazzi photo of him where he’s wearing a tuxedo. You know the one I’m talking about?
ALEX: Yes, I do. Of course, of course.
BOBBY: Yes, you do. Of course, you do. I— you know, anecdotally speaking, I totally understand what men— where menswear guy is coming from, because about a year ago or two years ago, I bought a suit, I went to go buy a new suit. Just like— I have a couple of suits, but like I— I need to mix it up a little. I can’t be wearing the same suit every time. And you literally cannot go off the rack and get anything except just like athletic cut or slim cut. I’m like, “No, it’s— it’s a suit. I want it to be like.” And then I have this other suit that was passed down to me. That used to be my grandfather’s suit, that I believe was made in the 1980s, and it’s like— it’s like night and day. I mean, it’s like so much wider. The shoulders are wider. The pants are wider at all parts of it. It’s like this is— this is how we used to live. It used to be comfortable.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: We used to put on a suit, and look good, and feel good.
ALEX: So true.
BOBBY: Now to suit to allegedly look good, except we end up looking like Andrew Tate. And we feel bad.
ALEX: I— I usually end up looking more like— like one Jordan Peterson, but I— you know, to each their own.
BOBBY: I think Jordan Peterson is— is accomplishing what he wants to.
ALEX: A fashion icon, yeah.
BOBBY: I think that he is— it might not be what you or I would like—
ALEX: [50:45]
BOBBY: —to look like, but he— in terms of execution of vision, he’s up there with Fred Astaire.
ALEX: Can we move on?
BOBBY: Yes. Okay. Our next few questions are voicemails. Here we go.
MAX: Hey, guys, this is Max calling from beautiful Providence, Rhode Island. Sorry, if I sound like shit, I’m walking groceries up the hill. So my question is, whether we actually agree that there’s like no conceivable world in which we wouldn’t want a salary cap in baseball. So like— so far as I see it, obviously, I know why the union has never gone for it, and that’s because basically the model, since Marvin Miller has been— you have like pre-ARB, ARB and free agents, and what you want is like inflation in the free agent market, so that— that trickles down to ARB. But like that’s basically still a market mechanism. It only works if there’s a relatively smooth market, which is true for players, but it’s not true for owners, because the owners operate as a cartel, so you always have the collusion problem, which keeps salaries down, which you obviously know. Like, it seems to me that a more socially democratic model would be having a salary cap and a ceiling, and you negotiate for some percentage of baseball revenue, or in, like, an ideal, ideal world, some percentage of the values of all of the teams. And then from there, the PA would kind of— negotiate for kind of, like, condensed or kind of squeezed income scale, where you bring down super high salaries and raise super low salaries. So it’s like, more solid arithmetic, and leads to more unity within the union. So I mean, it seems to me that that would be a bit better, because then you would definitely have hours going up every year because, right, the team value— or baseball revenue would go up every year, kind of like what they have in basketball, which doesn’t always work, but I don’t know. I think it works okay. Anyway, sorry for rambling. I hope you guys are doing well.
BOBBY: First of all, Max, don’t apologize for rambling because that wasn’t rambling at all. I think that was a very astute breakdown of the differences between a salary cap and a non-salary cap league, and the different—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —factors at play, the different motivations at play here. I think that— to answer the original question, which was whether we actually agree that there’s no conceivable world in which we wouldn’t want a salary cap in baseball. I don’t think I’ve— I don’t— I don’t agree. There is a conceivable world in which we should have a salary cap in baseball. It’s just that the— it’s like a very nuanced difference in that the conceivable world is not actually that close. So for now, it doesn’t really make sense to pivot to a salary cap model. Primarily, the reason is that what Max goes on to talk about later, which is that in other sports where there is a salary cap, you— you bargain over the percentage of the revenue that goes to setting that salary cap. In other sport— I mean, the most common model would be 50/50. However, I think right now, the owners would not be willing to agree to 50/50, because right now, they are not putting 50% of their revenue towards salaries, because they’ve done an effective enough job of suppressing the salaries on the lower and the middle end to the point where they would never agree to do 50/50 right now. The time to agree to a salary cap would have been, honestly, the ’94 strike, if they were ever going to do it. And then putting in stronger structures at play, to protect the sanctity of that salary cap and not let owners undermine it. And then also more democratically spread out the salary within that. But the vision of the union has never been that, and I think originally Marvin Miller’s view, which is the view of a lot of unions, was never hamper anyone from making as much as they want, because all wages towards workers are good wages, because otherwise, they would be going to the owners. I think that is like the— the subtle distinction. If we were like to be able to wave a magic wand, making everybody, you know, make the same amount of money or make close to the same amount of money based on service time or something like that, would be much more equitable, and would be much more democratically spaced out, and it would build— probably build more solidarity in the long term. It would just be such a radical shift from where we are now, that there’s almost no way to imagine it being put into place without the owners manipulating it to the point where players would make less overall.
ALEX: Yeah. I think my broad desire for a salary cap is mostly tied to, like, just the copious amounts of money in the sport, period. Right? And— and without saying, “Well, we can divert 80% of the revenue in the sport to, like, the communities surrounding the teams. I think it would become gamified by ownership groups.” To your point, to try and bend the rules to their will, right? And it is something that we kind of see in basketball a little bit as well, right? With players getting max contracts, superstars getting max contracts and veterans or— or lower to mid-tier guys falling fall short— far short of that, right? Struggling to kind of get their fair market value. So like, it’s— it’s not a perfect solution, but yeah, I do think that, like, ultimately, I— I want a salary cap that probably goes way too far for, like, any of the 30 people in charge, right? One that sees the revenue going to the people who are producing the value in the sport. And— and frankly, like, you know— I don’t know, you zoom out a little bit and it’s like, we should probably do a lot of things to make this game far more accessible to folks, like bringing down ticket prices, and bringing down concessions prices, and making it more easier to see games on TV, and that sort of thing. And all of these are things that like may well cut into the revenue streams in the sport right now, which I think is like a fine and— and good thing, as long as a majority of that revenue is going to the players. So I don’t know, I’m— I— Max, like you, I— I’m kind of rambling here.
BOBBY: It’s tough to imagine MLB with a salary cap, I mean, for a lot of reasons. The— the main reason being. like, the union was founded as— as that— as no salary cap being one of the founding principles of it. And so like, it’s just so baked into the DNA of the union. But also like, if you look at the other leagues, and what they fight over every time their CBAs are up, it’s always they just argue about what percentage of the basketball-related revenue or the football-related to revenue was going to the players. And they argue about the definition of base— or of— of sport-related revenue. And it strikes me as, like, very difficult to parse that out in baseball, and also to take all of the animosity, which I think is a good thing for the labor side. Like, the animosity, the vitriol towards ownership. That’s broadly a positive thing from my perspective. And funnel it all in toward— into that simple argument, you know? Like, you would take a lot of the levers that you can pull on, and you would oversimplify them to the point where you just be arguing about what is baseball-related revenue every three years, you know? Or every five years, or whatever it is. And you can’t really be that radical when you’re just arguing within a smaller conflict— you’re arguing within smaller error bars for what your CBA looks like financially. And there are all these different mechanisms that the— that the union over the years have come up with to try to support those error bars being [59:06] and to try to support money getting to players in different ways. I just think right now, we’re in it like a kind of dark time for that, where owners have, for a long time, beaten players in collective bargaining negotiations for a number of macro-economic reasons. And it didn’t always used to be like that. Like, MLB players used to get the biggest portion of the pie. They used to get like close to 60% of revenue, and now they’re down in like the high 30s, which is really bad. But also, there are some of these other different protections, and there’s like the length of the contracts, and the limitle— the limitless nature of those types of things in the baseball economy that would get dispensed with if you had a salary cap most likely, because you’d have to put in all of these different contract structures in order to accommodate that salary cap. So I don’t know. It’s very complicated, and I think that I would listen to people on both sides of the argument as to what would be, quote-unquote, “better,” or like quote-unquote, “more equitable.” It just is different, you know, than it is in other sports. Okay, next question.
ABBIE: Hi, guys, it’s Abbie from St. Louis Fed. I paused the podcast to call you and let you know that actually bars do have express written consent from Major League Baseball to disseminate their games. You need a license to do literally anything in a bar to, like, have live music, to have a jukebox, to have the television on, to have captions on the television, to have volume on the television. And the money from those licenses goes to pay copyright stuff. Every once in a while, a bar gets in trouble for not knowing that, and then they get shut down, and they get like fines and stuff. Anyway, I’m not a lawyer. I’m just a city planner, and I know that. Okay, bye.
BOBBY: Amazing note.
ALEX: This is— thank you so much for calling to let us know. I had no idea. I imagine enforcement is a nightmare that— what, do you just have people who just like— whose job it is to go to bars and say, “Do you have express written consent for that?” Do you have, sir? Excuse me? Excuse me? Can I— barkeep, barkeep, this— this— this Reds-Cardinals game, is it allowed?”[1:01:17]
BOBBY: It probably isn’t nightmare, but also, bars are some of the most bureaucratically and heavily policed, like, establishments—
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: — that we have, because of the alcohol board, you know? So there already is so much, quote-unquote, “enforcement” in the nature of a bar and, like, regulatory activity surrounding bars that I would guess probably— you know, it may be as not as hard to enforce as it would be where— if you were trying to show a game at a restaurant that didn’t have alcohol, you know?
ALEX: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: But I guess food is also heavily regulated, too. I— I just— first of all, this is a great note from Abbie, and second of all, it just, it makes me feel good that we have city planners listening to the podcast.
ALEX: Yeah, exactly.
BOBBY: That’s kind of like the demo that we’re going for. Baseball— if— if there are like a significant portion of baseball fans who are city planners out there and they’re not listening to this podcast, we’re failing. We’re not doing a good job. So—
ALEX: Yeah. Send it— send it to your city planner friends.
BOBBY: Exactly. Because basically, that’s what we’re doing. We’re talking about economics and city planning.
SPEAKER 5: Hi, guys. I wanted to, first of all, thank you. I want to get back into baseball. And after a couple of months of listening to y’all, I now rant and rave about the A’s to anyone within a certain radius of me, which has been really confusing for everyone around me, but very satisfying, nonetheless. My question is, I’ve seen the word contraction floated and I’m just wondering what you think about that. I work in sport, so it seems crazy to me the idea of contraction happening in the current climate, but is it something where maybe the MLB would wait until you have an NHL team, so kind of waiting for them to blink? Or do you think it just would never happened again? Thanks so much.
ALEX: Very topical.
BOBBY: Yeah, we kind of hit on this in part earlier, you know, when we were alluding to the fact that some people are starting to throw the word contraction around. I don’t see the benefit when you already have a team. Again, and they are in a fine market. I don’t see— really see the benefit of contracting them, but then again, what is my perspective matter at all? Like, they do stuff that confounds me all the time. But like a forced sale would make more sense to me than contraction, in terms of— even the reputational hit that you would take as a commissioner, as a league. Forcing a team to sell so that someone else can come in and be like, “I’m gonna run this team, like an adult even if that looks bad.” In the short term, in the medium, and long term still looks better than not having the team at all.
ALEX: It just feels like it would be a logistical nightmare. And— and also the kind of thing that would obviously have to be negotiated with the union, because you would be cutting an incredible number of jobs in the sport, right? Whether that is just for the next two to three years while they get a “new stadium,” quote-unquote, or if it’s just forever until they bring a 30th team back into the picture. I— I— I think it would— they would have a really tough time convincing folks of that, especially as they’re looking at potential expansion. It just feels like it throws too much of a wrinkle into the mix. And to your point, like it just doesn’t make sense, like you already have a team that actually has a handful of decent baseball players on it. Is— is the go— is the goal of Major League Baseball to make sure that it has a healthy economic ecosystem? Well, I mean, sure, to 30 plus one people, yeah. But for most people, it’s about de— having decent baseball in various markets across the country. And the A’s, for better, for worse, are somewhat for filling that void. You could— it’s— how much they’re filling, it is— it’s an open question, but I don’t know what— what you gain by losing the A’s beyond just make— getting rid of this headache. Like, it feels like it just would create more headaches down the road.
BOBBY: There was like a legitimate contraction effort in 2002 for the Twins, and—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —it went to the point of a vote, and the owners, like, voted largely in favor of it. And then they were saved at the last minute. We talked about it— we’ve talked about it a bit in the past. So without, you know, wasting too much time here at the end of the show, going into too much detail about it, like contextually, the early 2000s were much more of a friendly time towards the idea of contracting a team than— than now, where, like, the leagues are all about expanding. There’s all of this, like, cash flow coming in from sports betting, you know? Like, just doesn’t really make a lot of sense. It would go against a lot of the trends that we’re seeing, and they’ve talked about expanding, too, because, you know, they’re trying to become less regional. So, like, contracting teams, and having less product doesn’t totally make sense to me. I don’t really know. And you would almost— you would be forgiven if— if you looked at the actions of John Fisher and thought, “This is a man who’s trying to get his team contracted.” That is what I will say to cap this— this whole episode off, but this question off as well. It’s just like— it wouldn’t be the craziest thing you would ever think, just looking at the facts of what has happened in the last three years.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: But also, I don’t really see what the end game for that is, either. If you get your team contracted, it’s not like you get the money for a sale, or anything like that. Do you just like get to just wave away all of your debt too? Like, as he sunk all of his personal debt into the A’s to the point where it’s like, if you just poof vanished them, he would be better off financially, maybe.
ALEX: Maybe.
BOBBY: Maybe. Okay.
ALEX: It’d be a good— it’d be a good— it’d be a good bit, it’d be a good heel turn.
BOBBY: Has he— does he have a heel to turn left at this point? How many heels does this man have? Okay. Here we are, end of the show, we have gotten some feedback from our listeners about what our new closing power ranking segment should be called, or could be called. Remember last week, I suggested potentially calling it The Closer or calling it Extra Innings.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: We got a suggestion from a listener to call it Six Out Save, and then we add one item, so it’d be an item of si— list of six every week.
ALEX: Hmm. I see.
BOBBY: It’s pretty good. I don’t mind that. Lineup Construction, sort of high concept. Ranking— Ranking Pitches. Put it on a T-shirt. And then Collective Bargaining, as we negotiate back and forth how the list should look.
ALEX: Interesting.
BOBBY: It’s not really a collective process, though.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: It’s like one person does—
ALEX: It— it is not. It’s just unitary bargaining.
BOBBY: That’s funny. Just name it something that just is completely indecipherable to anybody outside of the listeners.
ALEX: You mean like— like naming your podcast after somewhat esoteric baseball concept that has nothing to do with the actual contents of your podcast?
BOBBY: Yeah. I still remember very vividly when I was like, “I never really thought about what that meant in the context of how our show operates.” And you were like, “Oh, I kind of always just thought like, ‘Oh, we’re tipping our pitches,” like people know what we’re gonna think about this.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Because we’re so predictable and consistent. And I was like, “That’s great.”
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: “That’s great retcon work right there.”
ALEX: Yes, that was good. That’s— we intended it to be that way the whole time.
BOBBY: We don’t have to decide right now. We’re just spitballing still.
ALEX: We’re spitballing, we’re ideating.
BOBBY: We’re not in a rush.
ALEX: Okay, but that— but I do think it means it’s— it’s my turn to pose to you.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: A— a ranking of five items.
BOBBY: Getting anxious.
ALEX: I know. In the baseball world or outside of the baseball world.
BOBBY: As a reminder for the listener last week, you ranked sunflower seed flavors.
ALEX: I did, yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah. You went—
ALEX: Black— black pepper. Bla— sorry, cracked pepper.
BOBBY: Yes. Which happens [1:09:30]
ALEX: One— one out in my rankings which— yes, exactly. But— but branding-wise, it’s important to get the—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —terminology correct.
BOBBY: You ordered it, fifth ranch, fourth barbecue, third dill pickle, second original, and first black pepper— cracked pepper. Goddamn it.
ALEX: So if you have thoughts on that, if you think I was terribly wrong, you are welcome— I encourage you to write in with your own ranking. Or just go scorched Earth on— on my ranking. That’s fine. We welcome that. But— but this week, I— this week, I would like you, Bobby Wagner, to rank these childhood games played on the schoolyard.
BOBBY: Oh, yes. Oh, my God.
ALEX: Remember recess? It was fun, wasn’t it?
BOBBY: Do I rem— do remember recess? I give myself a recess every day, you know?
ALEX: That’s— that’s good.
BOBBY: Right around— right around 11:00 AM, I’m like, “All right, I should play a couple games here. Have lunch.”
ALEX: Now, I— I had to use my discretion a little bit. There is no definitive popularity ranking of schoolyard games.
BOBBY: I— I’m really proud of you for using your discretion.
ALEX: Okay, thank you. So here are the games I want you to rank, okay?
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: Tag.
BOBBY: Tag.
ALEX: Hide and seek. Foursquare.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: Kickball and hopscotch.
BOBBY: I have some questions.
ALEX: Okay. All right.
BOBBY: Clarifying— clarifying questions.
ALEX: Sure. Sure. How do you play tag?
BOBBY: My— what if I was just like, what is foursquare?
ALEX: Right. To be honest, foursquare is a— is a game that I played on the school. You’re on the schoolyard growing up many times, and I actually don’t really remember how it was played. Something about bouncing in the— kind of bounce the ball and it’s gotta be inside the other person’s square, or it’s supposed to— I don’t know. I was never very good at it. Just do it on the line. Do it—
BOBBY: Maybe you should use your discretion to look up the rules.
ALEX: I’m not the one who has to rank it.
BOBBY: First clarifying question, is this just traditional tag? Are we talking like freeze tag? Are we talking all variations of tag are eligible under the tag umbrella?
ALEX: I— I think that— that tag and it’s— it’s variations.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: So I suppose when I was thinking about it, I was thinking traditional tag.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: I would be curious to know if there’s— there’s a version of tag that bumps up or down your— your ranking.
BOBBY: I think—
ALEX: Specifically, if it bumps it down, I want you to— I want to know freeze tag just makes you livid.
BOBBY: No. See, I think normal tag is kind of boring, but freeze tag—
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: —is very fun.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: It’s a great concept. What— what an innovation, you know?
ALEX: It is, yeah. Well, and it’s still tag. I qualify that as a game of tag, right?
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: It’s— it— there’s a wrinkle in it, but—
BOBBY: Okay. Just as— just while we’re spitballing along, while I’m— while I’m ideating over here. Great word for podcasting.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: I’m bummed to not see Red Rover over here. I thought maybe—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —we could get some broken arms in the mix.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: I’m really bummed frankly, very bummed to not see an option to rank capture the flag—
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: —which is an elite game.
ALEX: Elite game.
BOBBY: Strategic, athletic, simple, elite game, but—
ALEX: Elite game. And— and you know what? I— I thought about including it but ultimately opted against it in part because I— I thought it was too strong a contender. And— and it also is slightly different from, I think, some of the other—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —quote-unquote, “games” here. Like, that is an actual— I mean, you could even argue that maybe I should have left kickball off the list, but it— but it’s baseball-related. We had to tie this in somehow.
BOBBY: Sure. Yeah. You mean it’s high—
ALEX: But capture the flag is like much more high concept than—
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: —the rest of these, I feel like.
BOBBY: Yeah, galaxy brain invention.
ALEX: So— but we know— we know where it would— where it would land on the— on the rankings.
BOBBY: Capture the Flag is sort of the just rebuild on the Coliseum site of options here.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Clear number one choice.
ALEX: The answer is right in front of you.
BOBBY: I’m determined to make just an absolutely galaxy-brained comparison every time we do this segment. Like, last week where I was like—
ALEX: We have to.
BOBBY: “—Cracked pepper seeds are the God only knows of flavors.”
ALEX: That is gonna stay with me for a very long time, I’ll say that.
BOBBY: Okay. I hope it does. I hope it does. That’s what we’re trying to do here. We’re trying to make memories.
ALEX: So you’re good. You’re— you’re vamping over here a little bit.
BOBBY: I think I’m ready.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Number five hopscotch.
ALEX: Easy.
BOBBY: What are we doing?
ALEX: Just not a game. It’s balance, just— just how well you can balance.
BOBBY: Hopscotch is— is legitimately for like four-year-olds.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Like any— anything beyond that, because you could draw the hopscotch tiles with chalk, and it’s like, “Okay, we understand. Like, now we have hopscotch in the driveway.” But after you do it once, maybe twice, it’s just over. It’s not fun anymore.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
BOBBY: There’s no added variation. I’m sure that there are— like for the hopscotch heads out there listening to this are like, “Have you— haven’t you ever played extreme hots— hopscotch?” And to that an— to that question, I would say no.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: No, I was busy playing capture the flag, sorry.
ALEX: It is— hopscotch is one of those ones that could use a freeze tag like innovation, right? I mean, to your point like, extreme hopscotch, does that mean the spectators can, like—
BOBBY: Throw stuff at you?
ALEX: —get to— try and, like, sol— shoulder check you? You know, you have to keep your balance while a dozen kids are sitting there, pushing you out of the boxes.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm. So hopscotch is fifth.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Hoo. I’m gonna go hide and seek four.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Hide and seek is not fun.
ALEX: Interesting.
BOBBY: Because it’s only— it’s only like kind of fun for the seeker, but for the hiders, you’re just sitting there.
ALEX: Yes. You’re just sitting, waiting.
BOBBY: It’s more like— it’s more like sit and seek. You’re not really hiding, especially on the playground. Like— so—
ALEX: Yeah, where are you gonna go?
BOBBY: —you just went and you sat under the slide? Wow.
ALEX: Wow. Creative.
BOBBY: Really shocking. He went and he’s just, “Oh, you’re on a swing.”
ALEX: Roast these nine-year-olds for their shitty hide and seek locations.
BOBBY: I remember when I was—
ALEX: Think bigger, Isaac.
BOBBY: —when I was in— Isaac?
ALEX: I don’t know why that’s the first childhood name that came to mind.
BOBBY: That is my baby cousin’s name.
ALEX: Okay. Well, all right.
BOBBY: He’s six— he’s six now. He’s not really a baby, but damn,
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I’m getting old.
ALEX: Probably sucks at hopscotch.
BOBBY: He probably does.
ALEX: Sorry, hide and seek, seek.
BOBBY: So when I was in fifth grade— no, I was in fourth grade. I don’t know if they were actually playing hide and seek or if they were just trying to run away. But we had— our playground was like lightly fenced in, kind of, in parts. But it, like, led straight to like a lake and the woods. And so kids like did not often try to run away, but every once in a while you get a crazy kid. And I think somebody, like, was hiding in the woods, like when they called recess in, and it was— it spurned like a whole breakdown, lockdown manhunt situation, and they were just kind of, like, over by the lake, you know?
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Hid— hid too well.
ALEX: Hid too well.
BOBBY: Hid too well. The seeker really let us down.
ALEX: I’m sure it was fun for that kid.
BOBBY: Or scary. Or just what they needed. You know, maybe they’re trying to work or some— somebody has had some stuff going on at home. I don’t know.
ALEX: It is— the— the emotion, the emotion of— of when you are hiding, you know, it’s like— it— the excitement goes up the longer you’re there. You’re like, “They didn’t find me. They haven’t found me. I’m winning.” And then it hits a point where it precipitously drops off. You’re like, “Fuck, they can’t find me. Oh, my God, I’m lost forever.” Send up the smoke signals.
BOBBY: My friends and I— at— at my one friend, my childhood friend’s house, we used to play hide and seek in the dark in his basement, and there was, like, a few places to hide. You know, maybe like six places to hide. But the innovation was it’s dark, and the seeker can’t really see, so they walk into stuff and they step on people. It’s so funny. High jinks ensue.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But really, it was just like, “I’m just sitting here in the dark.” Not doing anything. Okay. So hide and— hide and seek is number four. Number three, I am gonna go tag here. I’m gonna tag.
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: On the strength of freeze tag.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Tag is, like, okay. It’s okay. It’s like your garden variety playground game. It’s like apple pie. You know, there’s better pie flavors, but it’s an American classic tag.
ALEX: Right. You know what you’re gonna get with it.
BOBBY: You tag— no—
ALEX: Predictable. You can— you can count on it. You can set your watch to it.
BOBBY: No tagsies, backsies, obviously, an essential rule.
ALEX: Duh. Yeah.
BOBBY: Freeze tag, I think, is pretty good. We’re— we’re talking maybe like— like a 60 on the 20 to 80 scale here. 60, maybe 65—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —if we’re talking freeze tag. Because then you start mixing in some— some new elements, some team elements where you have a tagger, a freezer, and an unfreezer. And the unfreezer is running around wreaking— wreaking havoc on the— the freezer’s efforts.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: We have sabotage introduced to the team. We used to play a version of freeze tag in gym class, where we were on, like, scooters, I think, or it was like freeze tag dodgeball, where if you got hit with the ball, you had to freeze and there was an untagger who had to, like, crawl around and unfreeze you. I don’t really remember all the rules—
ALEX: Fascinating.
BOBBY: —but I remember— I remember having a lot of fun. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re just talking about tag and its standard garden varieties.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: So I will have to put that third. Second is kickball.
ALEX: Wow. Interesting. Not where I thought this was headed.
BOBBY: Kickball is fun.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I got banned from playing kickball in elementary school by the recess aides, because I was too competitive. Who’s surprised? No one—
ALEX: Right. Because you were— you were juicing?
BOBBY: I was juicing. Now, who’s surprised? No one. No, I— because I used to argue with kids too much.
ALEX: You’d be like, “Replay review, replay review.”
BOBBY: And then when I was banned from playing, I was like, “Fine. I will umpire.” And I object to the kid and he got so mad. And he was like, “I will fight you.” And I was like, “We’re not fighting over kickball.” And then I got banned from being an umpire. So then they were like—
ALEX: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: “—You can go back to playing.”
ALEX: The lesser of two evils. They were like, “We shouldn’t have given you more power somehow.”
BOBBY: Appeasement really in its finest form.
ALEX: Yeah. Yep. You said, “I can do worse, watch.”
BOBBY: Right. Exactly. I like kickball. It’s fun. At a certain point, the game just grows— like too many people want to play and then you have too many fielders. You know, if there was a way—
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Right, yeah.
BOBBY: —to limit kickball where it’s like, “Okay. Sorry, you can’t play today. You didn’t hit the kickball lottery. We’re only allowed to have seven people in the field.” Because how do you even get on base at a certain point where there’s no—
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: —area where it’s not just gonna get caught immediately? I also always found it annoying arguing all the time about whether a pitch was fair or not, you know?
ALEX: Hmm.
BOBBY: Because there’s someone who, like, kind of bounce it, or curve it, or whatever.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And I’m like, “What are you doing? Like, that’s not in the spirit of kickball. We’re all here to kick the ball. It’s right there in the name.”
ALEX: It goes against the unwritten rules.
BOBBY: Right. You were supposed to give me a nice, easy, gentle and I’m just supposed to put my whole force behind it.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: A lot of injuries playing kickball. Not for me, but just more broadly, because you’re usually playing on cement, and you’re like sprinting to a base, but there’s no mechanism for stopping. You’re probably wearing Vans—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —where the— the tread is just totally worn through and you just slide and fall. I remember a lot of kids getting hurt playing kickball, which doesn’t seem like that should happen.
ALEX: Yeah. Kids are rambunctious, though. You know, you’re running, you got to slide. You got to put your body on the line.
BOBBY: Yeah, you slide on concrete?
ALEX: Absolutely.
BOBBY: Okay. Commitment. I appreciate that about you. Which leaves foursquare for number one. Some of my greatest memories in life playing foursquare, you know?
ALEX: Incredible.
BOBBY: We used to— we used to, obviously, play foursquare at recess, but then also my fourth grade teacher, we had some sort of like science flashcard foursquare game where he would bring our class out to play foursquare. And I don’t remember exactly how it worked, but it had something to do with, like, as you were hitting it, you le— you know, you said like what photosynthesis was or something like that. I don’t really remember, but like there was some sort of interactive teaching element to it, so I played a lot of foursquare in that— in that year. And it’s just always really fun. What a great concept. You just take a ball, you— you hit into a box.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: What could be more American than that? Simple, easy, as many people as po— as many people as you want can play, because you put the line of people outside, waiting on deck to come in when one person gets eliminated.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
And then you’re in the king square, so you get to serve. I mean, that that’s just— that’s—
ALEX: Yeah. That’s—
BOBBY: Talk about power trip.
ALEX: —peak of living right there.
BOBBY: Exactly. You’re like a starting pitcher throwing a no-hitter.
ALEX: |Who wants to face me? No one. No one on this playground.”
BOBBY: “My manager will not come out here and give me the hook.” I don’t know. I like foursquare.
ALEX: I think you— I think you talked me into it. Foursquare is fun. There’s a little more structure to it, right? There are lines on the ground that you can follow. It’s easy to set boundaries on on who is able to play. It’s a good— it’s a good sport. My— in— in elementary school, our— our foursquare boxes also double the— the places where you had to stand when you got in trouble. So, like, I would get in trouble in class, and then for recess, you have to stand on the box. And you would stand there the entire recess and your friends were not allowed to talk to you. You could not talk to anyone. You just had to stand there. “No sitting. No— I see you’re trying to squat. Don’t squat. Stand up.”
BOBBY: That’s intense.
ALEX: It was really intense. Looking back at it, I’m like, “Holy shit. We did, what?”
BOBBY: It’s impunitive. [1:24:09] Yeah. You couldn’t sit? That’s insane.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: When I was a YMCA camp counselor, when the kids would misbehave, they would lose— because the one thing that they wanted above all in summer camp was their pool time, and each group— each age group got the same amount of pool time. It’s like 45 minutes or something like that, per day and we just rotate through. And if you’ve misbehaved, either, we— we’d like cut into your pool time. So we’d be like, “if you can’t do this, or if you are misbehaving, or throwing food at lunch or whatever, like that’s five minutes of pool time that you’re losing.” And we would line them up in the grass sitting, watching the other groups in the pool.
ALEX: Oh, God. Wow.
BOBBY: Actions have consequences, you know?
ALEX: Yeah, true. “You want to be over there?”
BOBBY: But they would all— they would be like dressed and ready for the pool, so they knew they were going in, you know?
ALEX: Right, of course. Yeah.
BOBBY: We didn’t put them in the chain gang or anything.
ALEX: I wonder why so many kids are in therapy these days. Jesus Christ.
BOBBY: I know.
ALEX: It’s like—
BOBBY: Right. Probably because they were told that they’d get trophies.
ALEX: Pool— pool time but standing on the box. Yeah, exactly.
BOBBY: Standing on the box.
ALEX: And they were, like, stacked the— you know, it’s like— it’s four— it’s— it’s a square, so you can— you can put four kids on that box at once. You’re getting a lot of use out of it.
BOBBY: Oh, you were standing on the vertices of the box?
ALEX: Well, I was standing— no, I was standing on one of the corners.
BOBBY: That’s what— that’s a corner.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: That’s a vertice in geometry.
ALEX: What are you using these fucking words for? What is this? A geometry podcast? I don’t know what this podcast about anymore if I’m being quite honest.
BOBBY: It’s a podcast about Alex Rodriguez’s allergies, city planning, macroeconomics, and kids’ games. And if you enjoy that, and you have other people that you think might enjoy that, send it over to them. Tell them to follow us tipping_pitches on Twitter. They can email us, tippingpittchespod@gmail.com. Call in 785-422-5881. Have your voicemail played, like those three voicemails we played earlier. Maybe check out our Patreon, patreon.com/tippingpitches if you want more chat, just like this, maybe we’ll do a coda on the kids’ games, little bonus kid— bo— bonus playground game content on the Patreon this week. 3UP 3DOWN episode coming on Thursday. I don’t think we have anything else to add, unless you would like to throw a wrench in here at the end.
ALEX: I’m out of wrenches. I’m out of topics. I’m out of tissues.
BOBBY: Sounds like it’s time to end the podcast, then. Thank you, everybody, for listening. And we’ll be back next week.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Tipping Pitches 
Leave a comment