Bobby and Alex are joined by Hannah Keyser to run through a grab bag of topics, including the Shohei Ohtani/Ippei Mizuhara investigation updates, the state of the Designated Hitter across the league, why pitchers are not more…anxious, whether Jordan Montgomery leaving Scott Boras portends anything, team slogans, and more.
Follow Hannah on Twitter.
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The billionaire behind the scenes in White Sox’ stadium plan
Join the Tipping Pitches Patreon Tipping Pitches merchandise Songs featured in this episode: At the Drive-In — “Lopsided” • Jimmy Eat World — “Christmas Card” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and be able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitch and kind of help out so he wasn’t typical pitches. So tipping pitches we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand what tipping pitches all about? That’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, I’d like to tell you about a man.
ALEX: I’m all ears.
BOBBY: That man is the billionaire behind the scenes in the White Sox— Chicago White Sox new stadium plan. You’re familiar with Jerry Reinsdorf?
ALEX: I’ve heard of him. Rea— the real estate mogul.
BOBBY: You’re familiar with—
ALEX: That’s— that’s the work I’m familiar with.
BOBBY: You’re familiar with the fact that he would like a new stadium, which is a lightly banned topic.
ALEX: Right. This is— the— we’re kind of toeing the line a little bit, but what we’re talking—
BOBBY: We— we’re not talking—
ALEX: —about here is not the owner throwing out the suggestion he wants to leave.
BOBBY: Yes, that— that’s old news. You’re even familiar with The 78, the site in Chicago South Loop where there’s an undeveloped piece of land, and that land is managed by none other than NYU board member, Stephen Ross. We talked about this, okay? Unfortunately, the— the billionaires that have been named so far, none of those are the billionaire behind the scenes in the White Sox new stadium plan. No, no, no. That billionaire is an Iraqi-British man named Nadhmi Shakir Auchi. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right. He’s an Iraqi-British man who was banned from the United States because his visa has been denied, yet he does own the land.
ALEX: What— can you— can you give me more context on, like, who this man is? Like, is he just a plucky upstart who just decided to purchase a plot of land in Chicago? Is he an— is he a businessman?
BOBBY: Alex, I’m so glad you asked for more context, because you’re not going to be disappointed in what you find.
ALEX: Yes, I— I’ve figured you would come to the table with something good.
BOBBY: “For two decades, an Iraqi-British billionaire who once was barred from entering the United States has been trying to develop 62 acres he owns along the Chicago River, south of the loop. He’s run into political and legal roadblocks, some involved his partners, other centered on his past, which includes two criminal convictions, one in France, the other in Iraq. So Auchi’s land, south of Roosevelt Road”— I’m reading from the Chicago Sun Times, by the way, very important to give credit. “South of Roosevelt Road and west of Clark Street has remained vacant under four mayors, Richard M. Daley, Rahm Emanuel, your personal favorite, Lori Lightfoot, my personal favorite, and Brandon Johnson. Plans to build there a huge housing development, then a headquarters for Amazon, and recently, a casino, all fizzled.” And why did they fizzle, Alex? A combination of reasons.
ALEX: Of course, always are.
BOBBY: One of those reasons, undoubtedly, is the fact that federal officials never revealed why they rejected Auch’s visa— visa appli— application, which happened after a French court convicted him of fraud in an oil scandal. Which makes sense as to why MLB loves him. He was fined and sentenced to prison for 15 months. The sentence was suspended and he never did any time. Auchi did serve two years in prison, though, after he and 76 others, including Saddam Hussein at the time, a young member of Iraq’s Ba’ath Party, were convicted of attempting to assassinate Iraq’s Prime Minister in 1959.
ALEX: Nice.
BOBBY: Quote, “Mr. Auchi never spoke— met or spoke to Saddam Hussein,” Auchi’s attorney says in a two-page letter in response to questions from the Chicago Sun Times.
ALEX: Which is always a good thing to having to be put into writing, just to be clear.
BOBBY: “Please don’t put in the papers that I met or spoke to Saddam Hussein.” “He had no business or other relationship with Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein was in fact responsible for murdering one of Mr. Auchi’s brothers and our client was, himself, imprisoned, beaten and tortured by Sa— Saddam Hussein’s regime.” So just in case you were worried that Major League Baseball would not have to navigate more muddy waters after the approval of David Rubenstein, head of the Carlyle Group, to own the Orioles. We have this, we have this, new stadium.
ALEX: They said until Alberto Gonzales, the— the former attorney general who oversaw George Bush’s torture program, until he becomes—
BOBBY: Like an advisor to Steve Cohen?
ALEX: —a part of— a part of— a part of a group— well, no, he’s a part of the group who wants to bring a team to Nashville, right? But until—
BOBBY: Oh, right.
ALEX: —but until he’s in the door, we need someone to kind of fill that void, right? Someone who can talk—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —about politics with us. Who we can grease hands with.
BOBBY: You’re never gonna believe the guy who Auchi bought— what happened to the guy who Auchi bought the land from. He went to prison for 10 and a half years for an illegal kickback scheme.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Yeah, that man’s name is Tony Rezko. He was a political fixer for then governor Rod Blagojevich. 10 and a half years for kickbacks.
ALEX: Which like—
BOBBY: This is like—
ALEX: Yeah, your— your job title is fixer. Like, what—
BOBBY: Who’s the fixer for us? Who’s the fixer between us? That’s the real question that people want to know the answer to.
ALEX: Fixer between us? Yeah, I—
BOBBY: Honestly, it’s you. You’re the fixer. Whenever there’s a problem that seems overwhelming, I’m like, “Alex, please— please take care—”
ALEX: You’re just like, “Alex, please, I don’t know. Are you sure? Are you sure?”
BOBBY: When we had to transfer our feed from where we used to host it, which was the most batshit convoluted 2002 ass way of handling posting to the internet, when we had to transfer it over to an actual place to host our podcast, it was like— it was like— I was actually pressing the button to launch a nuclear missile. That’s how nervous I was.
ALEX: Yeah. Like, I just have maybe un—
BOBBY: As if there are like 200 people who are going to be affected by it if the podcast just disappeared, as if that was gonna matter.
ALEX: I have maybe an unwarranted, like, confidence in technology, I guess, which is a very weird thing to say. But you’re just kind of like, “We— is this going to be okay? What’s gonna happen? Are we going to have any, like, lag or whatever?” And I’m, like, covering my eyes and just going, “La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.”
BOBBY: Yeah, where you have an unwarranted—
ALEX: Just go, just [6:18]
BOBBY: —where you have an unwarranted confidence in technology. I have a warranted lack of confidence in technology.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: This is the yin and the yang that balances this podcast’s sound by so many people at home relate to it, you know? Sometimes they relate to you, sometimes they relate to me. Two halves of a whole.
ALEX: So— okay. So the— so White Sox Stadium, so we have a whole host of bad actors here. It’s kind of imprint— so— wait, so— so this man is— owns the land—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —and Ross, the board— the billionaire board member of NYU—
BOBBY: Right. So— yes.
ALEX: —is the property manager right now?
BOBBY: His company, Related Companies, which is a bad fucking name for a company, by the way.
ALEX: Right. Try Googling Related Companies, where we’re gonna get our other related companies.
BOBBY: Maybe that’s what he wants you to find.
ALEX: Maybe. I guess that’s what—
BOBBY: Maybe he doesn’t want you to know more about his dealings. Yes, they manage it, I believe. So they’re like the landlord for property that doesn’t have anything built on it.
ALEX: Okay, that’s good. That’s what landlords are for.
BOBBY: It’s just like— this is what— how real estate happens, you know? There’s just like four guys who have to agree not to go into a blood feud with each other so that they can have a little bit of a piece of land. Okay? It’s just mafia techniques. That’s all these guys are using. Right down to the kickback scheme that opened up the land in the first place, because the guy had to sell it, because he was going to prison. I wonder who dimed on him, you know? Makes you wonder.
ALEX: I know, I know.
BOBBY: It makes you think.
ALEX: Snakes in the grass, man.
BOBBY: Snakes are in the grass. So this is like— this story is— is wild. I actually recommend everybody read it, because it’s— it’s a testament to the moral vacuum that is the United States of America, number one. And number two, it’s a testament to how cursed the White Sox are, truly, truly. They’re like, “We’re— we’re trying to get free. We’re trying to get a new stadium. We’re trying to build The 78th neighborhood here in Chicago. And what do we need? A guy who’s been barred from the United States on multiple occasions, and he went to prison for potentially trying to murder the leader of Iraq. We need to— to buy that land from him.
ALEX: No other place. Where else is gonna go?
BOBBY: There’s nowhere else.
ALEX: Where else are they gonna go, you know?
BOBBY: I mean, they’re— exactly. Just like Phil said. Just like Mr. Castellini said.
ALEX: Just like Phil said, “Where are you gonna go?”
BOBBY: Where are you gonna go if not through Stephen Ross, to the Iraqi-British billionaire? Who, by the way, does not know Saddam Hussein and never has.
ALEX: Right. I’m rooting for them. I’m rooting for all of them. I— just to be very clear, I think there’s a big opportunity here, to help you and me, the— the common fan. I see nothing but good outcomes that can come from this.
BOBBY: While we’re here, do you want to, like, run through any of the other NYU board members real quick? Do you wanna do a quick five on Kenneth Langone? I know we got a long conversation coming up with Hannah Keyser, about a grab bag of topics, all of which are entertaining and fun, and we enjoy talking to Hannah. But old Ken, he’s calling.
ALEX: He is— we— you know, it’s really funny that we’re doing this in the first 10 minutes of this podcast— I haven’t been— I haven’t been on NYU’s website in a while to look at their board members, so I feel like we may need to do a little research. Maybe that’s a Patreon episode, you know?
BOBBY: I think it might be. Yeah.
ALEX: Because there’s some good ones.
BOBBY: Certainly, if you were going to assemble a board of trustees, you would probably want to avoid anybody who got rich from profiting off of student loans, right? Like, that’s the number one thing. You don’t have to worry about, like, anyone on a college board.
ALEX: Well— right.
BOBBY: Who happened to be involved in any of that, right?
ALEX: Well, could that— because that would influence, you know, their perspectives and how the schools should be run, right?
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: So you— so you wouldn’t want anyone—
BOBBY: Setting a tuition, you know, handing out scholarships grants, how we spend the endowment, sort— that sort of thing. That wouldn’t—
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: You wouldn’t be able to go into that, like, without any priors.
ALEX: Right. I mean, that’s the [10:16] any—
BOBBY: If you haven’t gotten [10:16] from Sallie Mae.
ALEX: —any reasonable school, any reputable school would— would say, “Absolutely not. We can’t— we’re not going to bring you into our club.”
BOBBY: Certainly, a school that fashions themselves as important and prestigious, as New York University would never conduct any business with anybody of that sort.
ALEX: No. And I’m glad they didn’t.
BOBBY: I’m glad we cleaned that out. Okay. The— we’ll— we’ll go deeper into that on Patreon.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: We should— we should probably talk more about Stephen Ross. No. No. No. We should talk—
ALEX: Talk— talk Larry Fink and BlackRock.
BOBBY: I would love to talk about Larry Fink and BlackRock. There is a way to make this a baseball chat.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: I know that there is.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: We just haven’t found it yet.
ALEX: Just follow the money.
BOBBY: Reinsdorf is our guy. He’s trying to make it Tipping Pitches adjacent. Okay. No, we’re going to— we’re— we’re not going to do that. I promise.
ALEX: Quite yet.
BOBBY: Not yet. What we are going to do is we’re going to thank Josh, this week’s new patron. Thank you, Josh. Just a reminder, patreon.com/tippingpitches to sign up. Next week on the podcast, I’m hoping that we can spend the— maybe the second half doing some voicemails and some mailbag questions. We’ve accumulated a few over the last couple of weeks. We have verified that the voicemail box is working and it is not ringing Alex Bazeley’s personal phone. For better or for worse, maybe that was— maybe people wanted that. Maybe people prefer to just be able to call you. I don’t know how you feel about that.
ALEX: I think it’s kind of nice.
BOBBY: It does—
ALEX: [11:46] the day a little bit.
BOBBY: Patreon [11:51] people get to just call you?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Just ask you— your advice. Ask Alex is a really funny segment. I think we should debut that, but we’ll talk about that in the future. So please call into the voicemail, 785-422-5881 to have your voicemail featured on next week’s episode. Or if you’d rather not call it, you’d rather just write in, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com will suffice. Now, that I got all that out of the way, we are going to go to our conversation with Hannah Keyser, but before we do, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I’m Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: Okay. We are once again joined by Hannah Keyser, a longtime guest of the podcast. Do you— do you know what number appearance this is for you? It’s got to be like four or five at this point.
HANNAH: Done several GIF Drafts, I know that much.
BOBBY: This is true. Do you know that we took the GIF Draft behind the woodshed this year? We axed it. We replaced it—
HANNAH: Oh.
BOBBY: —with the Tipping Pitches Bingo Card. RIP to the GIF Draft. You were one of the originals.
HANNAH: I liked the GIF Draft.
BOBBY: It was always really fun to do and then hard to return to, so we decided—
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: Right. That’s true. It doesn’t— it doesn’t score well.
BOBBY: No, it doesn’t.
HANNAH: That’s why they don’t have Fantasy GIF Leagues.
BOBBY: Exactly.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: Exactly.
ALEX: We also just—
BOBBY: Back when we used to, like, go through the effort of making a blog post for it. It made sense. And now, we just kind of punted on that, you know?
ALEX: And also just—
BOBBY: [13:16] the internet is over [13:18] yeah.
ALEX: Turns out it’s really hard to keep track of every single GIF that every player is producing throughout the year.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: You have to watch most, if not all, of the baseball games.
HANNAH: Which is always every year, I am taken aback anew at how hard it is to keep up with baseball. Like—
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: And— and the— the past couple of years they’ve done this thing, where like some team opens earlier than everyone else, because there’s some more [13:43] so like when the Dodgers were in Seoul, my husband and I woke up for that first game [13:48] going on. We care about baseball a lot.
BOBBY: Commitment.
HANNAH: Yeah. We were like, “Let’s do this. Let’s wake up. Let’s watch the one game.” And then as soon as there are 15 games every day, it becomes— it, like, immediately looks absolutely absurd in retrospect that we’ve put in any effort to watch any one game, because they’re just like a wash over you. This is— I— I have been doing this now for some number of years, and every year [14:10] the beginning of the year. I’m always like, “Oh, my God. There’s— every day, something is happening.” And, like, I’m always missing something. I like— I watch a truly absurd amount of baseball to the extent that my husband, who also is a baseball fan and covers sports, is like begging me to be allowed to watch other things. It’s like— we— I will— I’ll make an allowance for Jeopardy and Top Chef during the baseball season, but I realized—
BOBBY: Nice.
HANNAH: —I’m like, “There’s just an endless amount of baseball to be consuming.” So, yeah, right now [14:38]
ALEX: Why wouldn’t you?
HANNAH: —keep up with all the— all the GIFs. At this point, I’m still excited about it. That’s the other thing. I’m like jumping around, watching all these games. I’m really— wait, I have a question for you guys. Now, I’m running this pod.
BOBBY: Oh, wow.
HANNAH: How are— how are you—
BOBBY: We’ve been hijacked, Alex.
HANNAH: Are you people who watch more than one game at a time?
BOBBY: It depends on if the game is good enough. Like, I will make exceptions.
HANNAH: Okay.
BOBBY: Like, if there are two games going on that I feel are a priority, typically, the way that I met my baseball watching is I just prioritize the Mets.
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: I watch like— depending on how bad the season is going, like between 80 and all 162 Mets games per year, so I have to orient—
HANNAH: The 80 is the bottom.
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: In a terrible season, you’re watching 80 Mets games.
BOBBY: Last year, I watched the 80, which is to say I watched—
HANNAH: Okay.
BOBBY: —the first 80 and I was like, “I’m good. I don’t need to watch for the next few months.”
ALEX: I’m out.
HANNAH: Yeah. Yeah.
BOBBY: But— but I will put, like, a second game on the laptop at the same time. Like— and put—
HANNAH: Okay.
BOBBY: —it on the coffee table off to the side.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: From time to time. But I— I don’t like the split screen, really. That’s just—
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: —hard for me to watch. I like to have, like, a main screen and a second screen. The whole, like, four box. I know that people who inhale baseball love that.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: But for me, I’d like not watching any of them. It’s just overwhelming to me. Yeah, I—
HANNAH: Alex, how about you?
ALEX: I agree. I mean, it’s not— as an— as an A’s fan, it’s nice because I don’t really have to check in on them. Like, they can be my small screen team. You know, just big enough that I can see the— the other team’s score getting bigger, and then I’ll put on a— a start or something like that, that— that I’m really interested in. If— if there’s a given pitcher— who is— who’s taking the mound or something like that. Or if there’s a— a fantasy team, like, relation, I’ll be like, “All right. I’ll— I’ll—”
BOBBY: Alex has, like, three different fantasy teams, and so, like, nearly every team in league is covered for— by his fantasy rosters.
ALEX: Right, exactly. And, like, seven pitchers going today—
BOBBY: So he can justify watching any baseball game— yeah, exactly. I— because of my time spent in LA, I got used to watching the Dodgers a lot, because I would watch the Mets in the afternoon, like as I was leaving work, they’d be wrapping up.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: They’d be losing as I was getting home.
HANNAH: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And then I would watch the Dodgers when I got home. So now, it’s like I kind of do a similar thing, but I’m not staying up as late as I used to. You know, I’m trying to cut back.
HANNAH: No.
BOBBY: Trying to cut back on the caffeine. Cut back on staying up really late. And so I watch, like, the first few innings of the Dodgers, and then if— if it’s a good game, I will leave it on. And if it’s not, I will go to bed.
HANNAH: I have tried this year— or I have tried this year the— the beginning, MLB Network’s beginning.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: Unintentional plug for MLB Network, I guess. And I can’t, it’s so hard to follow. How do people do that?
BOBBY: I know.
HANNAH: That’s one where it’s the four boxes, and they’re jumping around with— with the box—
BOBBY: And they zoom in on like a— like a big moment as it’s happening.
HANNAH: But they change the sound. I understand what— it’s how it has to go. Like, they change which broadcast you’re hearing based on what’s, like, going on. But that can be very disorienting, because like if they’re focusing on a game because it’s a big moment, they’ll be like, “Oh, bases loaded, like Bryce Harper steps to the plate.” And then if somebody hits a homerun in another game, they’ll be like, “Going, going, gone.”
ALEX: Exactly.
HANNAH: They’ll be like, “Whoa! He just hit a grand slam?” They’re like, “No, they change which broadcast you were listening to.” So I find that— I— I can’t. I have to do one game at a time. I’m— I’m like a— like a neophyte in that way.
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: I’m rudimentary in my ability—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —to follow baseball.
BOBBY: You’re more boomer than zoomer when it comes to baseball.
HANNAH: Yes. Yes.
ALEX: I was— I was— I was inhaling March Madness, and that is almost actually easier to do, like, four screens up, because 90% of the time, the— the camera angle is the same on all of them. So it’s easy to sort of glance around—
HANNAH: Hmm.
BOBBY: That’s true.
ALEX: —and see where the ball is. But in baseball, like you were saying, Hannah, things happen so quickly, you’re like, “Hang on.”
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: “They were— just they were just with the manager in the dugout, and now, someone’s running bases [18:14]
HANNAH: Yes. Exactly, right. Yes, right. Like, they’ll set up the situation, and then they’ll cut to a different game, and then they’ll come back to the game, and the thing will have already happened. And you’ll be like, “Okay. And so what happened?”
ALEX: All right. Sure. I’ll [18:23] the replay.
BOBBY: And I also feel like it’s— it’s so regrettable when that happens to you in baseball, because baseball is a game of like slow, slow, slow, action, slow, slow, slow, action.
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: So when you miss the action, you’re like, “Ah, shit.
ALEX: You’re like, “Great.”
BOBBY: It’s like soccer. If you’re watching the World Cup and you’re watching four games at once or whatever, and you missed the goal, why did you watch the other 89 minutes? The goal is the point, you know?
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: Like, the home run is the point. And so, I— I— it’s hard for baseball.
HANNAH: I also— I— I also just think that, like, every— another thing that I realized every year is how good the Mets broadcast is. Of course, we don’t, like—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —spending time on that. And you’re not— you’re not enjoying it if you’re only catching them being like, “And he struck him out.” You’re like, “That’s not the enjoyable part of listening.”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: No.
HANNAH: [19:00] so I really— I feel like I need to— you need to commit. You need to, like, let the— the discourse of the game wash over you. Okay.
BOBBY: Completely. I completely agree. Thank you for the hot take. That’s actually kind of what I— what I wanted to start out with anyway. Like, what is your baseball consumption, like, right now? What is your coverage looking like right now? I know you wrote a piece about the DH over for The Ringer, where I work. And I love that piece. We wanted to talk to you a little bit about that. But what like—
HANNAH: Thank you.
BOBBY: You said you’re inhaling a lot of baseball at the moment.
HANNAH: I am.
BOBBY: Is it more or less than usual?
HANNAH: I feel like it’s more because I don’t have anything to do, because I’m still looking for a job, so I’m watching a lot of baseball. I’m also falling asleep on the couch a lot because I’m pregnant. And so, the— I’m either watching more baseball or less baseball, but there’s more baseball being pumped into the house. That’s for sure. I’m also— I’m— I’m still doing SNY fairly regularly—
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
HANNAH: —and so I feel like I’m watching just like a— lot more Mets than ever, because I am less focused on, like— I don’t have to watch the best team, which is not the Mets.
BOBBY: Hey, now. Hey, now.
HANNAH: Like, it’s—
BOBBY: We invited you here. You know, we’re chatting, we’re friends. Come on.
HANNAH: In— in previous seasons, I feel like I would be more like— like I— the Yankees played the Guardians— or— or playing the Guardians this weekend, and it was news to me that the Guardians were that good, because, sorry to Cleveland, I don’t care that much about the Guardians. And— but in previous years, I feel like I would have had to be super locked in, like let when we find out why the Guardians are so good. And I don’t know, because I didn’t— I haven’t watched them [20:39] instead I’ve been watching the Mets be bad. I’ve also been watching the Royals be good. Those— that— that— those things came together this weekend. That was nice.
ALEX: Yeah, it’s a little— it’s a little freeing, I feel like. You can kind of, like, flip it— like if you’re not contractually obligated to lock—
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: —in on one game or something like that, you can sort of bounce around a little bit more, which maybe— there’s an extent of like— it’s a little freeing. I mean, maybe in the way—
HANNAH: Yeah [21:04] they have a job, yeah.
ALEX: —not in the way you want, but like— right.
HANNAH: I was— last time I was on the MLB Network, the first— they were like— you know, they give you the rundown, and it was like gonna be all Red Sox. And I was like, “Ooh. I have not watched any of their games, because they had been”— just, like, a week and a half ago, they had been on the West Coast just to start the season. And I also have been trying to sleep more. Or not even trying to sleep anymore. And— right. So then I— I’d say it felt like that— I was like— I was reminded that I do have to pay attention in like a somewhat intentional way in order to have some sort of like professional credibility going still. I can’t just, like, watch the Mets and the Phillies, and then call it a day. But the pill— I think— I— yes. So that’s my baseball consumption, is more indulgent, but perhaps needing to be accommodating slightly more of the actual news cycle. Like, I didn’t watch that much Dodgers baseball, other than that first game at all, again, West Coast have been falling asleep soon. And I realized I had, like, no concept of how— of who was good and what was happening with them, so I should probably pay more attention there.
BOBBY: The people that you expect to be good are good.
HANNAH: Okay. Good to know.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: All right [22:07]
BOBBY: Which is to say most— most of the team— basically all of the team is good. They’re very good.
HANNAH: I feel updated. I’ve been watching more, like, daytime MLB Network because I’m home during the day.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
HANNAH: And it is— that is good. We should have more— this is— I’m gonna avoid saying anything about the network, and instead just say, “I wish ESPN paid more attention to baseball, because there should be more baseball commentary, highlight shows.” Get some shit— like, to— to put a button on all this— this whole early conversation, it’s hard to keep up with all the baseball.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: And it’s helpful for someone to do that for you. So podcasts— I listen to so much baseball podcasts. That’s what I’m doing [22:49]
BOBBY: Unfortunately, if you’re spending any time listening to Tipping Pitches, you’re not getting any updates about—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —what’s going on, on the fields.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: You know? Except weirdly last week on the Patreon for some reason, we went through all of the, like, run differentials in the league just like—
HANNAH: Wow.
BOBBY: —one, two weeks into the season, because some of them are pretty ridiculous, you know?
ALEX: Or weird. They’re really weird. Baseball is really weird right now.
BOBBY: Not going well over in Denver. Not so hot for the Rockies, I would say [23:14]
ALEX: Going well with Detroit?
HANNAH: No. Now, I want to see what the run differentials are. I’m gonna, like, pull them up. That’s not going to be good. I—
BOBBY: That’s how I knew about the Guardians being actually good.
HANNAH: That’s how you found out?
BOBBY: Yes, exactly.
HANNAH: You went, “Whoa.” I— yes. I— I did not know that they were good. I don’t really know why they’re good. I don’t— I know—
BOBBY: I don’t think that they know why they’re good.
HANNAH: Yeah, look at that. 20— but not as good as the Royals. Okay. The Royals have the best run differential? They do. They do? Sorry, if you’re listening to this, like, any day other than the day this goes out, yes, the Royals currently have the best run differential in baseball.
BOBBY: Something tells me that will not last, but some— some small sample going on there, but they are good. They are good. I— I officially think that they are better than bad, which is more than you can say for the last few years of the Royals.
HANNAH: You said you were there on Friday. I was there on Friday, didn’t stay for the game, just the pregame, and managed to have conversations with people both on the Royals side and on the Mets side about how there would probably be a lot of stolen bases by the Royals this weekend.
BOBBY: The Mets do not— well, they don’t prevent runners from getting on and they also don’t hold runners very well.
HANNAH: They really don’t. I— that is a great mystery. That’s like a very Mets specific question, but I thought Alvarez had been working on that in spring training. And I was— I was one of those where I, like, bought into the spring training too much and I was like, “You know what I think it’s gonna happen? He’s gonna be throwing guys out all year.” And that’s not been true at all.
BOBBY: Yeah. Well, one thing about spring training is that, like, the good players don’t actually run because they know that they don’t have to. And then we get to the season, they actually do steal bases because it matters more.
ALEX: Well, stolen bases are, like, down crazy this year, right? I think just leaguewide—
HANNAH: Yes.
ALEX: —no one is running, which is weird and maybe— I mean, certainly unintended, and not, I think, what any of us want. I like seeing—
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: —stolen bases. I think we should—
HANNAH: I like seeing stolen bases.
ALEX: —bring it back.
HANNAH: I was having a conversation with someone just yesterday about like— from not like a executive, just a friend, about whether or not like—
BOBBY: Dave Dombrowski.
HANNAH: Yeah, exactly.
BOBBY: You were saying you were talking to Dave Dombrowski.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: About whether the stolen bass success rate being so high. Like, I think that people were saying a lot last year was like, “They should keep running until it comes down.”
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: And whether that sort of necessarily true or whether or not, like, why don’t we just keep it high. That seems good. Maybe still at exactly that rate, definitely. But they’re— they’re both stealing less, and the success rate, I think, is a little bit lower this year.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: How’d that happen? I thought that’s what supposed to go. That rule change didn’t work, I guess.
BOBBY: I have a theory about that it’s still too cold, you know?
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: The guys don’t want to run, don’t want to pull a hammy or whatever. But also, the injury risk, supposedly, MLB is trying to peel that back with the whole obstruction rule change, because rather than sliding into a guy’s knee and getting a concussion or breaking your hand or whatever, you can actually predict where you’re going to slide into in the base and not hit it too hard. It doesn’t seem like that’s changed anything. Also, running is dangerous, you know? Stealing base is like—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —unforeseen, you’re diving—
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: —a lot onto the ground. The ground is still hard, even though—
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: —it’s a professional grounds crew that takes care of that dirt, it still can hurt you.
HANNAH: I— I was saying— watching the Mets yesterday that if Francisco Lindor came out after the game and was just like, “I don’t like being cold. That’s why I’ve been terrible.” That I would— I would actually really respect. And I’d be like, “Same. Same, Francisco Lindor, I also do not enjoy being cold. Cold baseball is bad.” Yes. Perhaps, it’ll— I— but it was— there were a lot of stolen bases early last year. Maybe I was really—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: —excited about the new rule. I don’t know. We’ll keep an eye on that.
BOBBY: It’s also like we don’t have stolen base— we don’t have guys that— that, like, stolen base specialists anymore, really.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: Because those guys have been taken out of lineups. You can’t afford to keep guys like that in a lineup. So now it’s like the injury concern with stealing bases is so much more than it was in the era that they’re trying to get back to by changing these rules. Like, in the 1980s, there was dudes that were hitting like, you know, an empty .275 and then just running as soon as they got on base. But now, like, you don’t have guys hitting empty .275 unless it’s Harrison Bader batting night for the Mets, who does not have an extra base hit yet this year. Still going, you know? Going on— going on a month now, getting close.
ALEX: That’s because he’s trying to give himself opportunities to steal bases, obviously.
BOBBY: To make it more interesting, except he doesn’t steal bases either.
HANNAH: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: But that’s okay. We don’t have that anymore and so—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —the guys who would be running are also too valuable to run, because they’re also great.
HANNAH: Okay. This actually— as I— this made me think of something that came up in the course of reporting the DH article that I maybe mentioned in, like, one sentence, but did not get to dwell on as long as I maybe wanted to, which is I had not thought about the many— both factors and ramifications of the decline of the dedicated DH. But one of them that— that— this time, I am talking about executives, executives mentioned to me was that they want so many more pitchers that there’s just such a smaller amount of roster space for your position players. Even with the slightly expanded rosters that, like, you— like, if you have 13 pitchers, which is the maximum amount of pitchers you are allowed to have, that you can only have, you know, 13 position players and they’re like, “All right, so like nine plus second—second catcher, that’s 10. Plus. Like. second infielder”— like the— the room for a DH runs up, but also, right, the room for a guy to just being speedy, like there isn’t that same space. I thought it was so interesting in— in talking about that specific thing. Like Elias, the Orioles GM, we were talking about that and he was like [28:52]
BOBBY: Is he GM or is he president of baseball?
HANNAH: Oh, gosh.
BOBBY: We gotta be careful.
HANNAH: Oh, gosh.
BOBBY: We don’t want to mistitle him.
HANNAH: Sorry, Mike.
BOBBY: Another— another organization is going to try to hire him away, because they could offer him a higher title.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: Goo— Google says he is the executive vice-president and general manager. I don’t—
BOBBY: Oh, man. Okay.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: He needs a promotion, I guess.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: So does— so does his own Twitter. I for— I always forget that he has Twitter and he—
ALEX: Yes, a Twitter.
BOBBY: Hmm.
HANNAH: And he follows me. Oh, Hi, Mike.
BOBBY: Do you think he follows us, Alex? I’m gonna say no.
HANNAH: [29:18] gonna tell you [29:20] but he was like— and I would have even more pitch— he’s like, if they would let me, I would have 14 pitchers and only 12 position players and then you really wouldn’t have space for a DH or a—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —a run specialist. Which is— that is sort of the— a lot of the problems of baseball are all, if not, causing one another— tied up in one another. It’s sort of like there’s too many pitchers who are too specialized, and not enough position players who are specialized, and so when you— you end up with like— right, like a lot of health-focused on the few position players, who are very good, which—
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: —also necessitates things, like taking a lot of days off and then [30:02] like, it’s like a lot of— the game is in, like, a— a slightly skewed place where— I mean, whatever this was— all the discourse has been in the past 10 years, that’s why we got the rule changes, right? It’s like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: —we’re not— we’re not doing as much interesting stuff on the offensive side these days, because there’s so much focus on maximizing what you can do with the pitching staff.
BOBBY: We’re in like— we’re still very much in the throes of the hyper optimization era.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know? Like, we’re still trying to hammer out any inefficiencies. And there’s a lot of sameness up and down the rosters of all 30 MLB teams. And I think that some rule changes have tried to cut in the opposite direction of that, or tried to, like, make it more valuable to be a guy who hit singles the other way by changing—
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: —the shift rules. But at the same time, it’s not a controlled experiment, because they’re also adding the DH to 15 other teams, you know? So, like, that was a— a place where—
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: —different teams have different philosophies about roster construction, around what you do with a pitcher or how long you leave them in. Ironically, that’s come up in the context of, like, UCL injuries, too, because you know that if you’re— you know that you’re a pitcher who has to stay in for a little bit longer, because you don’t have the DH, then you might not throw as hard or you might not be as max effort or whatever. You might try to stay in longer in the game. I actually— so why don’t we start with your DH piece? Because that was one of the things we wanted to talk about. We have a—
HANNAH: Cool.
BOBBY: —running— a running list of topics that we’re going to run through here, a grab bag of sorts. One thing that I wanted to get your perspective on is that— like I said, we’re in a, like, a hyper optimization era. We’re in a very— there’s a number for almost everything right now. But there are some things in baseball that you cannot quantify, and the idea of being like a full-time DH and what it does to a guy’s, like, competitive instinct, what it does to his mental makeup is something that is very hard to qualify. And so it’s one of those things that, like, different front offices, and different coaches, and different players still think about it differently. And those things are becoming more increasingly rare in modern baseball. In your conversations with people about this, about what it takes to be a good DH, is there, like, a quantitative approach to that question? Is it more qualitative approach to that question? Is it just— is this basically the last, like, vibes thing we have left in the game is what I meant.
HANNAH: I— I think it’s really interesting, because in— in writing this piece, it— it did feel to me like one of the rare— like what really interested me, I’ve been thinking about this, since the end of last season. Last season, I, like, read an Associated Press article that, like, mentioned, there’s a— an aside and a sentence in, like, that seventh paragraph that the Dbacks, who were in the World Series, had gotten below average production out of their DH spot. And I was like, “Weird. That’s— shouldn’t do that. You should— why do that when you could be instead getting good production? Like, don’t you have anyone on— in your entire like farm system who could just, like, match, that you could have put in that role instead?”
BOBBY: Yeah. Who wouldn’t know a glove— who wouldn’t know how to wear a glove, but like can still hit. Yeah.
HANNAH: Right. I was like, “Why bother with [33:10]?” And— and— right, I think there’s so little left in the game— this is something I talk about a lot. There’s so little left in the game where you can be smarter than the people in the game. That is an unsatisfying spot for fans, especially for media. Like, it’s just true. The problem is like— it’s like if you as a manager does something and you’re like, “What? Why did he do that?” Probably he’s got a reason and you just don’t know. Like, he’s not being an idiot. Like, it’s like— he— he didn’t bring that guy in from the bullpen that you thought he should bring in. Probably that guy was like a little banged up or something. Like, there’s so little room to second-guess what teams are doing, because of the optimization and the ability to put a number on everything. And so I wanted to, like, look into this as like, is this something that, like, they are doing wrong? I was like— I— I wanted to find out that they were doing it, like, totally wrong and be like, “Surprised. I have a fix for you.”
BOBBY: Gotcha.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: Because it’s like you— you never get to do that anymore. You’re never going to be like, “Hey, I think you guys could be better.” And I ended up in a place where I was trying to sort of split the difference of being like I do— I got— I heard from all these people about, like, the reasons, so the— the sort of wanting to allocate more of your roster to pitchers being one of them, are all these reasons for why they’re doing it this way. And it’s not to say that those, like, reasons are invalid. Like, I— I get it. The— the Phillies with Bryce Harper. It’s like a perfect example. It’s like, yeah, it’s good that they can— I mean, they had too many DHs, actually, they had to play [34:35] for a while, but they didn’t want to. Like, I know—
BOBBY: Like, 120 games now for the last year. Not ideal.
HANNAH: Right. Like, there’s a lot of reasons that I understand and they’re not wrong for prioritizing those reasons over maybe the intangible benefits of just committing to one DH and letting him DH. But I do think part of the reason they are prioritizing these other reasons is because it’s so hard to understand and measure the benefits of committing to one guy at DH. It was really interesting to me that like, exclusively, players were like, “Yeah, of course. Like, it obviously makes a difference whether or not you’re, like, doing this regularly.” You’re doing it once every six months or something, versus GMs, who were just like, “Here’s why we, like, can’t have a roster spot for a DH.” And I don’t think either side is particularly wrong, where I sort of net it out was that, like, all of the executives and coaches that I spoke to said some version of like, “If a guy was so good, if we had Big Papi, if we had [35:48] then we would dedicate a roster spot to the DH. But you have to get so much production out of that to be worth it that we just don’t see the value in doing that. It’s like, “Well, right, if you’re not valuing it, guys won’t value it, they won’t work on that skill. Your player development people or your Minor League coaches won’t encourage that skill. And then you end up in a place where no one [36:13] Big Papi anymore.” Like, it’s sort of— it’s— it’s very much like— there’s— we’re never going to have another one like that if it’s not something that gets financially rewarded or prioritized by teams. And so now, executives are even more justified in not dedicating a DH spot to one particular guy, because there’s just no one out there who is Big Papi. But it’s impossible to know, like, could someone be that if— if we still— if— if all of this was in an earlier era where teams paid for home runs more than they did for on-base percentage or whatever, like would we see a different makeup of teams? I don’t know. Sorry, that was a really long winded answer.
BOBBY: No, that’s great. I mean, there’s like a number of guys who play the field now, who probably could be that, right? Like, if we’re—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —being honest, there’s just like— there’s probably, like, 10 first baseman who could just be, like, not as good as Big Papi necessarily, because what made Big Papi great was like on-base plus slugging, you know?
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: Like, a lot of guys still slug, but they’re forced to play for space, because of what you’re talking about, like the priorities of the general manager most often.
HANNAH: I mean, I really think, actually, Yordan Álvarez is a really interesting example, because he does DH a lot. And he’s someone where I’m kind of like— he’s relatively young. I’m going to Google his age while I talk.
BOBBY: Yeah. He’s like 27.
HANNAH: And it’s kind of like— he’s 26, he’s 26. So it’s like, I understand why the team is like, “We’re not gonna make him a DH, he’s 26. He can still play the outfield.” But he’s had surgery on, like, both his knees and then the, like, numbers bear out that he also sort of suffers this DH penalty a little bit, where he’s not quite as good at when he’s DH-ing, when he’s playing the field, but in some ways makes it seem like he should play the field, but in another way makes it seem like maybe you should just let this guy learn how to DH really, really well. And then, again, it’s like that’s one of those where you’re like, “Maybe that guy in an earlier era just is a DH.” And they’re like, “Don’t worry about playing the field at all, like, just get so good at DH-ing,” because he provides so much value with his bat, but the roster flexibility that they get out of— and he DH’s a lot. He DH’s like half the time, but the roster flexibility they get out of having him not DH 100% of the time is worth it, and so you never get to kind of find out the sliding door version of like, what if Yordan Alvarez was allowed to exclusively focus on DH-ing, would he be even better at the plate?
ALEX: Yeah, it is this interesting, I think, position where like the implementation of the DH was almost— I mean, it was sort of reacting to the era that kind of came before, both in the sense of, like, pitchers can’t hit anymore, and it doesn’t make sense for them to hit.
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: And also hitter, it’s really not easy, but teams are able to develop hitters. And— and if you don’t have to think about their defensive aspect, well, sure, then every team can find a DH, right? But as you pointed out, that’s harder— that’s easier said than done. And it almost feels like we’re in this sort of, like, arbitrage moment where teams are sort of seeing this, like, gap in value, right? And using the DH rather than as just another offensive tool as sort of this place to say, “Hey, maybe we can squeeze a little bit of, frankly, like monetary value out of this, right?”
HANNAH: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: “We can put a guy here who doesn’t— who we don’t have to pay 20, 30, 40 million to.” And I do think that’s a really interesting angle to this, too, that you brought up in the piece of like— and— and even guys like Ben Cherington, the Pirates GM, admitted as much, right? Of basically saying like, “Look, like we’re valuing this position much differently than we are a lot of the other ones on the field.”
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: “And so if the guy is not giving us the production of a DH that we’ve thought about 10, 20 years ago, well, then, he’s not going to garner that.” And so there is this interesting market inefficiency that I feel like teams are sort of latching on to, that maybe it will take a few years to— for the rest of the league to catch up to, or for players are really sort of wrapping their head around like, “Okay, like, what does this mean for me in my career earnings?” I don’t know.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: It’s— I think it’s a really a framing.
HANNAH: Yeah. I thought that, like, Brian Snitker sort of almost unintentionally said— maybe not unintentional. It’s like not giving him enough credit. But said something that I didn’t notice in the moment, and then kind of going back and listening to it after having talked to a couple of executives, so that to me, which was— he was like, “Well, you’re not gonna prioritize teaching a guy to DH in the Minor Leagues, because then when other teams come calling, they’ll have less trade value.” And I was like, “Oh, right. Like— like, that’s such a— that feels like such a— like, far down the line ramification of something that like— but it’s like that is how teams think.” They think—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —in terms of value. They think in terms of the value of the guys in the Minor Leagues, whether that’s to their club, or on a trade market. And so— right? It’s like to me that was like that— like that seem— that seems almost— like when he said it, it seemed almost like negligibly specific. Like, I was like, “Okay, whatever. So you’re not teaching it to them, the Minors, because [41:10]” But then when you can think about it, like that is— that is the ethos, that is the, like, must at every stage be maximizing the value that is now universally recognized around baseball, so you’re not getting teams that value things differently. So you know, as the Braves, that teams are applying some measure of DH penalty to the— whatever their version of WAR is. And so you’re like, “All right. Well, then, like, can’t have him DH because then when he— we go to try to trade him, he’ll be— he’ll be, like, dinged by whatever metric it is that that particular team that we’d like to trade him to uses.” And so— right? It’s like those things— I think a lot about, like, Pete Alonso being so insistent about—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —not being a DH and it’s like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: It— it feels a little silly, because it’s like, “Pete, come on, you’re kind— you’re kind of a DH, right?” But he hates when you say that, and it’s kind of— I get it, because he’s— he’s working towards free agency, and now he’s— he’s like, “Please do not— do not print in the paper that I’m a DH.” And I get it, because it’s his, like, earning power, and he’s a really good player. And he should get to cash in and, like, he should— you know, he would cash in differently if it was 20 years ago, but it’s not. So he’s gonna keep playing first base.
BOBBY: It’s interesting, though, because so much of— it’s all player development, right? Like, you— if you developed guys to just be good at DH, there’d be a ton of guys who are incredible DH-ers.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know? Just like if you developed your best athlete to play for a space, there’d be a ton of incredible defensive first baseman, but that’s not as valuable on the diamond.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: So they don’t hit it at that direction.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: But it’s intriguing, though, because like, then who would you replace Pete with if he was the DH, you know? Like, you’d put somebody there who’s like— if that person that you were gonna put there was good at something else, they would be something else, you know?
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: So, like, when Pete was not there, like, pri— in an era where he was— before he was called up, like, you know, who was playing first for the Mets? It was like a hodgepodge of like James Loney and friends, you know? Like, that wasn’t great either, for— from a—
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: —roster construction perspective, so—
ALEX: What’s Ike Davis up to these days?
BOBBY: I would love to know. I would love to know what Ike Davis is up to. Mets— Mets legend Ike Davis, Alex, please put some respect.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: The— it’s just GMs are making calculations about where they cannot put resources towards.
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: And what they have decided is that they would like to let things atrophy in favor of prioritizing the things that are moneyball priorities, you know? That are— that are like sabermetric priorities, and it’s just a lot of— it’s a lot of sameness, you know? And so, there’s a lot of, like, holes in rosters that look very similar up and down the league.
HANNAH: Well—
BOBBY: And Phillies cut the other way, it’s interesting, because Dombrowski is like, “Give me a bunch of guys that could pro— profile as DHs.”
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know?
HANNAH: I find Dombrowski to be such an interesting person to talk to. Like, you can talk to Dave Dombrowski about like— whatever story you’re working on, it would probably benefit from talking to Dave Dombrowski, because he has such a, I think, accurate view of how the game has evolved. He’s so able to speak to like— I think he’s really interesting in his ability to kind of be like, “I understand that we are valuing things differently than we used to, and I have no feelings about that, kind of like”— he’s not, like, railing against the changing of the values and he’s also not like, “Ah, we’re smarter than we used to be.” Like, he’s just very clear-eyed about the way that the game has evolved.
BOBBY: I mean, that’s how you convince like four different owners to spend $250 million a year on your roster.
HANNAH: Yes. I—
BOBBY: He’s being a clear-eyed evaluator of the game’s current trends.
HANNAH: Exact— exactly right. Like, he’s just very good at being like, “Well, we used to value that and now, we value this.” And you’re like, “Okay, that’s”— like, I thought it was— when I was talking to him, he was saying to me that someone had just been talking to him, because again, everyone’s like, “We’ve got to talk to Dave Dombroski about whatever it is.” About—
ALEX: [45:07] I guess we have to talk to Dave Dombroski now [45:09]
HANNAH: You should talk to Dave Dombroski. He’s so good.
BOBBY: I would love to talk to Dave Dombroski. I’d love to.
HANNAH: And he was like, “Someone’s talking to me the other day about how to bring back the 200 innings starter.” He’s like, “And you can.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” Like, he just is sort of like— he’s not wistful. He’s not, like, railing. He’s just very like, right, the clear-eyed about— like, “Here’s how the game exists currently,” which I do think is like— right. It’s like when you think of it like, “Wow, that’s how you— exactly. How you can [45:35] over the seasons?” He’s very practical about what the game is valuing in that particular moment. But like you said, like he went on and got a lot of the issues and it’s like— because maybe he was clear-eyed enough to both understand why teams aren’t constructed that way, but also have like a healthy respect for the things that used to be valued. Like, he talked— he had [46:00] with Ortiz for one season in— in Boston and so I talked a little bit about that. As opposed to— [46:06] who overlapped, but they were just [46:08] for much longer, but also was kind of more cynical about the current way we value guys, which is just, like, objectively that’s correct, kind of.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: I feel like Dave Dombroski is like old enough to know that everyone always thinks that they’re objectively correct but then these things change.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: And so he’s, like, less attached to feeling smart in the particular moment.
ALEX: Yeah. He’s like— he’s like, “I get the DHs are invaluable, But like, at a certain point, they are.” Like, if you collect enough of them, there’s gotta be—”
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: “—something there, right? Like in the— in the aggregate, you can recreate a team based on only DHs maybe.
BOBBY: I mean, it’s hard— it’s hard, though—
ALEX: And— And make it to the World Series, I guess.
BOBBY: Yeah, because, like, it’s very hard to delineate the line between what makes a good DH and what is just a good hitter. And it’s still always gonna be valuable to have good hitters.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know, that is—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —like a squishy distinction that you can draw, and if you are smart enough, or savvy enough, or clear-eyed enough, or whatever Dave Dombrowski is, he’s a genius. You know, he— the guy who builds good baseball teams, period. To— to be able to say, this guy is a good hitter no matter the context, whether I put him at DH, whether he has to play at left field, whether he has to convert to first base. These guys hit in all scenarios. There’s nothing that is going to stop this guy from hitting. Yeah, like if you’re— if you can identify those guys, doesn’t matter where you put them, really, because they’re in a—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —lineup slot at the end of the day.
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: Were there— were there any, like creative routines of whether when you were kind of talking to the players of— how— how guys sort of like stay in that— because there’s a lot in there about like how hard it is to sort of stay locked in. You mentioned David Ortiz, was appearing in like less than 10 minutes of—
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: —of his team’s games, you know? So, like, I— I don’t know. Were there any, like, players who had something that sort of stood out to you of, like, how they kind of keep their mind fresh and ready to go?
HANNAH: What really stood out to me was how, I’m pretty pressure all of them with the exception of Kyle Schwarber, who didn’t end up being in the piece [48:01] I talked to. All of them mentioned talking to either Ortiz himself or someone who had coached David Ortiz, that they all— which does— that feels like it— that feels like it really gets at the distinction between the executives and the players. The players all recognize that, like, “If this is something that I’m going to be asked to do, that is a skill that I need to do some amount of work to be good at.” And to them that was like, “I gotta find someone who knows how to do this and ask them about it.” Andrew McCutchen was sort of the most thorough in talking to me about, like, how his routine had changed. Guys, the— the one thing that I— it’s not that interesting, but the one thing that I heard everyone allude to, whether they tried it and didn’t like it or whatever, they all mentioned some version of someone along the way told them, “Stand when everyone is in the field. Like, don’t sit, so you’re on your feet the same amount.” And guys either stuck with that, or dropped it, or whatever. But I thought that was like a— that’s kind of like the— the first go-to thing that you’re told when you’re DH-ing is, like, recreate standing in the field by just standing, instead of sitting. I— I enjoyed that Marcell Ozuna said that he talked to Nelson Cruz and he was— and that he was like, “But then I decided not to nap before every game, because I was too sleepy after napping.” That only— that only works for Nelson Cruz.
BOBBY: That’s one thing that you learn if you like talk to any number of professional athletes, is like obviously the reason that they became professional athletes, because they’re incredibly talented. They’re much larger, and stronger, and faster, and better at the—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —sport than the— the general population. But another skill that you maybe don’t see on the field all the time is that they can sleep anywhere and everywhere.
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: That is a really key component to being a professional athlete that I just do not relate to.
HANNAH: Yeah. And the— one of my favorite things to ask, like media people in the World Series, is like, “What about your personality would keep you from being a professional athlete if you had all of the physical talent?” And for me, it’s that I don’t let anything go. I’m— I’m thinking about that [50:05] before game, I had—
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
HANNAH: —10 years ago. Like, I just— I’m— I don’t put any— I don’t— I don’t flush anything. And for you is not being able to sleep, good to know.
BOBBY: Yes. There’s a few other things that I could probably put on that list as well. Alex, how about you? I’m curious to hear what you have to say to that question.
ALEX: What would hold me back—
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: —from success?
BOBBY: I’ll throw you another one out while you think for me. A crippling anxiety of being in front of people.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: There’s a lot of people at games—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —and a lot of people watching on TV. I don’t think—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —I can perform under those circumstances.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah. I just— I just think I get too in my head. You know, I’m the kind of person who like— so it’s kind of like when I’m reading a book, I’m sitting there thinking about how, like, I’m reading a book. Like, I would step into the batter’s box and be like, “All right. I’m standing— so this is a baseball bat I’m holding in my hand right now. Let’s see. I should probably scuff the dirt with my cleat a little bit, because that’s what players do, right?” Like that—
BOBBY: So you’re— you’re saying that consciousness is the thing that would prevent you from being a good professional [51:04]
ALEX: 100%.
HANNAH: That’s so hilarious.
ALEX: Just— just pure existence on this plane.
BOBBY: That— that is amazing.
HANNAH: I have— I have to shout-out that I asked this to a lot of different people, and Julia Morales, the Astros sideline reporter, is the only person who’s ever been, like— she thought about it and she was like, “No, I could do it.” And I was like, “I— you know what? I believe you.” She was like, “I have the correct personality to be a professional athlete if I had the skills.” And I was like, “Wow.”
ALEX: All right.
BOBBY: That is so funny.
HANNAH: All right.
BOBBY: That’s so— that’s really funny.
HANNAH: It’s like only physical limitations holding me back. I was like, “No.” I— I— yeah, I tried to— there was a [51:41] now on which Yankees pitcher, I was just talking to in spring, but I— I got into a conversation about this with him, because I was like, “Do you get anxious about injuries?” And he was like, “No.” And I was like, “Oh, my God. [51:49]”
BOBBY: Right.
HANNAH: I cannot relate to that. Yeah. So that—
BOBBY: It’s like the pitcher’s—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: Pitcher’s, like, elbow hurt for, like, 14 months before they blow their UCL out, you know? Like—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —it’s— it doesn’t just— most pitchers’ elbows do not just snap overnight. You know, they don’t go from being fully healthy. It’s usually like a— a frayed ligament that you don’t ever want to get an MRI because then it’s gonna be like, “Okay, I’m gonna be out for three months.” So you just pitch through the pain. That’s— that is one thing that has always blown my mind, is like the mental fortitude to still go out there and go max effort knowing that you’re doing more damage, because you have to break the UCL in order to then get it repaired. You can’t just be in a partial— you— there’s only one Masahiro Tanaka who can be, like, partially torn his whole career and not have it affect his performance at all. But the rest of the guys just know that it’s going to snap at some point when it starts hurting, and then they just keep going. Like, how can people do that?
HANNAH: But last year, I did a story— probably my, like, favorite conversation I’ve ever had, even though, like, I don’t know that [52:44] read the story because it wasn’t like a sexy headline or anything. But I talked to Kyle Snyder, the Rays pitching coach about the level of anxiety he feels on behalf of his pitchers. And he talked a lot about like— right, like, needing to, like, absorb that anxiety for them and, like, how he’s like, “It keeps me up at night, like”— and I was like, “Yes. Okay, I could be a pitching coach.”
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: Like, if that’s a— that’s a job requirement, I could be kept up at night by the anxiety of wondering if their arm is gonna snap. But, yeah, I thought that was such a— right, like he was— I— I because I— and this came out of having little conversations with him about that for many times in a row when I saw him, because, right, I was like, “Did you think about it? Did you think about their arm might blow up?” And he was like, “Oh, my God. All the time.” And I was like, “Did you think about it?” He was like, “No, not long.”
BOBBY: If—
HANNAH: And I was like, “Oh. Wow.” If a prerequisite of being a good pitching coach is just being anxious on behalf of other people, like I’m the next Mark Prior. Somebody’s gonna hire me.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: Let’s— let’s do this.
HANNAH: Exactly. I really— yes. That is, like, one of my main interests in baseball is like, are the pitchers anxious? And they’re not.
ALEX: Yeah. They’re— no. Well, they like— they— they can’t afford it— I mean, we talked about this a little bit on— on last week’s episode, in— in the context of like— of picture of the rash of injuries, right?
HANNAH: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: And it’s kind of like they— to be the very best, you kind of can’t go out there with any reserve, right? And say, “Oh, I’ll dial it down a little bit.” Both, because you want to perform, because these guys are competitors who just, like, don’t have that bone in them. And also like you’re thinking about that, like, payday, right? You’re thinking about—
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: “—Hey, look, if I’m not getting that contract, someone else is.” Right? So it’s like you— you— they’re almost bred to, like, not be able to think about it, which is why you need to surround them with people who can absorb—
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: —all that anxiety because like they just— they don’t have it in them.
BOBBY: I mean, part of it is like—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —you can compartmentalize the idea that getting Tommy John is, like, part of the job. But giving up—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —fucking bombs all the time, that’s on you. You know, that’s— you’re the one that threw the pitch and so the pitcher—
ALEX: Yeah, you— you can’t— you can’t be like, “I gave up four homers today, but my elbow feels okay, you know?” Like—
BOBBY: Exactly.
HANNAH: Right. I mean, that is— that is the reason why the pitching injuries can’t be solved, is because—
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: —in order to do the job, you have to be behaving in a way—
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: —that is putting you at risk of more injuries, you know?
BOBBY: Classic Catch-22.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: Classic Catch-22. Okay. What— we— we should move on to our next topic, and Hannah, would you like to select—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —a topic from this list of topics that we have shared?
HANNAH: Let’s talk about— how much— you guys talked about the Ippei stuff?
BOBBY: Honestly, not a lot. We— we started—
HANNAH: All right.
BOBBY: —like, maybe 25 minutes talking about the story in full. We were on a hiatus when it— when it broke, and so we talked about all of the details up to that point. We haven’t talked about it since the details of the federal investigation have dropped over the course of the last couple weeks. I guess if you’re listening at home, I’m sure you’ve seen many screenshot— just a lot of screenshots of text messages going around Twitter these days.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Not painting former Dodgers and Angels translator, Ippei Mizuhara in a great light, and how he was handling the alleged theft of Shohei Ohtani’s money to place it— to place— to place bets on sports that were not baseball, but—
ALEX: Not baseball, but you do have to hand it to him for that.
BOBBY: You— you do have to— you have to—
HANNAH: Okay. I kind of think you do. I think you do. I think that— to— this is a reference to a Jon Heyman tweet that was perhaps worded in a way—
BOBBY: No, it was perfect.
HANNAH: —that it felt a little [56:26]
ALEX: Yes. No. Yeah, it was—
BOBBY: He was like— he knew what he was doing. That was posting at its finest.
HANNAH: But l was like, I have— I kind of agree. I kind of agree.
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: Okay.
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: We agree that like— that when your life is spiraling out of control that, like, the— the sort of like dichotomy between what he was willing to do and what he wasn’t willing to do, feels just like— just curious. I don’t know. [56:51] like you have to hand it to him.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Right. Like, when you’re that close to the game, it’s like—
HANNAH: Right.
ALEX: —it’s like he definitely had something that he—
HANNAH: Yes.
ALEX: —probably could have used if he really wanted to.
HANNAH: Yes. Yes. And instead, he was like, “I’m gonna steal— steal money,” which is like— I don’t know which is better.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: That’s kind of my point. It’s like I don’t— it’s not even, like, I think you have to hand it to him. I just think, like, the psychology of that is very interesting, because like, I’m gonna—
ALEX: Right. He was like, “I’m gonna stick to college women’s soccer instead.” Like—
HANNAH: Right. Exactly. Okay, yes. So the 37-page formal complaint from the government, which is surprisingly readable. Like, you should just read it if you’re listening to this—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —because it’s very detailed. Can I— can I have several meta takes? Because we’re like—
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: —some number of days into this new cycle. And so all of my [57:33]
BOBBY: You are at the— you’re on the right place to have meta takes.
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: Great. My meta take number one is this is incredibly sad. Like, I almost did not even think to have the take that was, like— am I allowed to curse—
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: —about this guy? Okay. I’m like at no point in reading that did I think like, “Wow. This guy sucks so much more than I thought he did.” I just—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: —was like— like, from page one, like from the first text message Mizuhara that they include, I just felt bad for him. And—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: —and— and that doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t face like whatever legal ramifications he’s going to face. But I do think that it is— as far as we can say this without being actual medical professionals, clear cut picture of someone who like has an addiction, and who is very aware that he is, like, digging himself deeper and deeper into a hole that I don’t know if he thought he was going to get out of, or like what that would have meant to him. But it is— like I thought a lot about like, “He got a wife.” I’m like, “What’s her life like now?” And it does feel a little bit predatory on behalf of the bookies, with the illegal bookies who kept extending him credit. Like, obviously, there isn’t— one of the things that I was sort of curious before we got more details and, like, one of the things that people pointed to as, like, potentially evidence that there was like more to the story that would implicate Ohtani, which I don’t think there is, was that, like, how would— how did this guy who made six figures tops, like, continue to get credit extended to him? And in reading the details of the complaint, I’m kind of like, “Indeed,” but for a different reason. Like, for the reason being that like, “You gotta cut this guy off at some point.” Like, he’s— he’s, like, hurting himself knowingly. And clearly, there’s a point in the complaint in which he asks them to give him less credit, because he’s, like— said something about how it would be too reckless if they give him $300,000 I think it was, like worth of credit. And it’s like at some point, someone— like this— it’s like a— it’s like a— you know, the bartender serving you and you’re clearly in an intoxicated situation, like he’s giving them—
BOBBY: Yeah, but they don’t do that, because there’s laws about that, because there’s actual—
HANNAH: Yeah, I know.
BOBBY: —preventative measures about that, but [59:47] sports betting.
HANNAH: I know. But that’s what I mean. It’s like— like he’s— he’s doing the version— he’s doing as much as he can to give those people the indication that like—
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: —he is dealing with this in an unhealthy way. It’s not to say it’s their fault, but I just like— that’s my first meta take, which is just like I feel no animosity towards this guy. I feel bad for maybe Ohtani more than him, but certainly, just bad for everyone involved. I mean, Ohtani’s ability to compartmentalize is evidently an even greater part of his skill set than we gave him credit for, because I do not know how he is continuing to perform at any level while losing— and we’ll get into this, the only person, I guess, he was ever talking to.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: That is the other massive takeaway that I had from the story was, like, the— the day before we got the 37-page complaint, I tweeted something— I hate when people say that, but it’s like better than just pretending that you had to [1:00:48] on the spot. That, like, the— the— the New York Times or somebody had must have gotten a hold of this and they had— they had written like a version of the story before we all got all the details. They said something about how like, “Oh, I underestimated the extent to which Ohtani was isolated at the end of a— of a train that existed exclusively of Ippei Mizuhara. Like, we understand as the media that, like, whenever you see Ohtani speak, it is— or was through Ippei, like that— they’re synonymy, synonymousness was like very public, but I had not considered that that extended to, like, all of his private conversations as well. That is so surprising when you— like— like— right, the— literally, the day before we got the complaint, I just was, like, hit with this thought, I, like, said to my husband, I was like, “Has Nez ever had a conversation with Ohtani?”
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: And then as it turns out no. Like it— that is a— that is a fact, that is addressed in the details of the complaint is that like Nez has never spoken to Ohtani without Ippei, and that is both logical, because I don’t speak fluent Japanese, so why would Nez Balelo, his agent at CAA? But also so surprising when you think about just like the importance of Ohtani to CAA, to Nez Balelo, to the sport itself. Like the fact that just— the fact that they’re— the most surprising sort of moment in the narrative laid out by the complaint to me is that, like, the media reaches out that they are looking into this bookkeeper and that Ohtani is implicated in some way. Nez talks to Ippei, Nez Balelo CAA agent. They talked to the Dodgers, they talked to Major League Baseball. I was like, “It’s crazy to me that there was a point at which for, like, presumably hours if not days, Ohtani’s agent knew, his team knew, Major League Baseball knew, his interpreter knew, and he did not know that this was, like, going on at all and no one thought that was weird. Like, no one— no one thought like, “We gotta make sure he knows.” Like that is the— the extent to which everyone involved in baseball, in the Dodgers, and the angels presumably before this, the fact that the extent to which everyone involved just was like, “If you’re talking to Ippei, you don’t need to talk to Ohtani.” That is like— the— you never need to, like, make an effort to ensure that this guy is, like, informed on the potential legal goings on of his life. It— like he’s— at that point, the concern was that he himself was implicated, right? Like, the wire transfers—
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: —were coming from his account, and yet no one was like, “We got to talk to him directly.” And not even learn Japanese and call him ourselves but, like, as far as I can tell, no one even thought, like, “Ippei, get Ohtani in the room. We’re gonna put you on speaker and, like, translate for us.” Like, I think they just were like, “We don’t even— he doesn’t even need to— we’ll just tell it to Ippei and then he’ll relay it in his own time,” kind of like. That to me is insane. Sorry, I just talked for a really long time.
ALEX: No, you’re— you’re absolutely right. And— and there were a lot of people who were calling out Ohtani specifically and being like, “Look, like how could, you know like, basically have everything hinge on this one friend of yours? How— you know, surround people with, like, finance— surround yourself with financial advisors and whatever and whatnot.” But it feels like a much larger indictment on the Major League Baseball ecosystem that they would let all of this fall down on one person and people are fallible anyway, right? So the fact that you are negotiating contracts and— and having these, like, very intense legal discussions through one channel that no one else can even verify— like, no one else was like, “Hey, we’re gonna bring our own interpreter also.”
HANNAH: Yes. That’s— that’s what I mean.
ALEX: “Just to make sure we’re like— got everyone on the same page.” Like, it was all hinged on one person.
HANNAH: At some point, they must have been some degree suspicious of Ohtani himself. This is not a conspiracy theory. I’m not [1:04:59]
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: But at some point early on, you’re suspicious of Ohtani himself. At that point, how do you not think like, “All right. Let’s ask him some questions through someone who is not on his side.”? And if only for the reason of like, “We’d like to ask him the tough questions,” sort of. Like, the fact that there was no effort made to do that is very surprising to me. I mean, the— the complainant lays out one of the sort of, like, multiple financial professionals raising concern, maybe it’s too strong a word, or raising questions about the account that Ippei had taken control of, essentially. And how they didn’t have access to it, and he was like, “Oh, Ohtani wants it to be private.” And they were like, “But they’re potentially tax implications to the interest that it’s accruing.” And he said, “Don’t worry about it.” And I thought, “You shouldn’t even trust Ohtani himself if he says that to you.” Like that— like, that’s why you have financial professionals. Like if— if the financial professional thinks there might be tax implications to an account, I don’t even think they should take their own client’s word for being like, “There aren’t. That’s not a big deal.” Like— like don’t you want, like, pursue some level of oversight? That is— that is the— like, I think the thing that everybody underestimated until the details of this were laid out, was like, surely at that degree of financial wealth, there must be multiple levels of oversight. And then the thing that was spelled out was like, “No, there just weren’t.” And that is very surprising.
BOBBY: Or at least any level— any level of oversight was like being— that Ippei was the middleman for the oversight, and Ohtani.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: On all of those. There was, like, no direct to client. I— from the beginning of this, when people were like, “How could you not notice that $4 million was missing? How could you not notice that $16 million was missing?” Once that number was updated, or whatever. I’m like, “Very easily.” [1:06:51] You know, like, the— these are mult— numbers of magnitude. That’d be like someone asking me like, “How could you not notice that a thousand dollars was missing?” I don’t know, because I didn’t open my bank account for a week.”
HANNAH: Right. Right.
BOBBY: You know, like [1:07:02]
ALEX: Right. Like, I don’t know if Ohtani is just checking as Wells Fargo before buying Sweetgreen and make sure it’s—
BOBBY: Right, exactly.
ALEX: Right. Like—
BOBBY: By the way, by the way, you can only keep $250,000 in one savings account, so it’s like this money is spread out over several places.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: You know? Like, it’s not—
HANNAH: Well, and—
BOBBY: —FDIC insured, unless it’s like in multiple different places. So, like, if the— if the translator is, like, leaving that out, if Ippei is, like, leaving that out of his interactions or conversations with Ohtani, like one or two of those bank accounts, and he’s just managing them, and he’s become the sole person who’s managing them, you could very easily lose four and a half million dollars in the wash. Sorry, the guy is very rich. You know, if you want to talk income—
HANNAH: And then—
BOBBY: —inequality and how gross it is that he could be missing four and a half million dollars, we can have that conversation. We’re ready to have it here on Tipping Pitches.
HANNAH: That is certainly the least unique aspect of this story. Like, there are so many—
BOBBY: Yes,
HANNAH: —aspects of the story— well, one major aspect of the story, which is nobody spoke to Ohtani. Like, that it was only made possible by the fact that he is this, like, Japanese speaking superstar who is sort of, like, siloed away from the rest of the sport. The fact that a professional athlete, who makes millions, isn’t keeping close watch on their money, like that’s a relatively common story, unfortunately.
BOBBY: Tale as old as time.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: Right. Like that part, I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand that, that like sometimes they get taken advantage of because they have so much money that they’re not keeping a close eye on it. The part where, like, no one spoke to Ohtani himself, that feels like something that maybe we should, like, follow up on and try to close that loophole going [1:08:28] All right. So that’s my take on that. Very sad. Do you think Ohtani will change representation? Like, is— is— does he— do you think he feels— it’s a weird level of trying to like, you know, extrapolate his own feelings, but like, was he let down— was he specifically let down by CAA and the financial advisors, and people around him? Like, should he clean house?
BOBBY: Yes, he should. I think that it’s like— it couldn’t have gotten worse, we should say.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And even like— even before all of this, right? Like, there was discussion about the contract and the weird structure to it. And how maybe it wasn’t even the most beneficial contract that he could have gotten, but— that Ohtani wanted to sign a slightly worse contract to help the Dodgers, and so that they could compete over the [1:09:18] contract, whatever. So it’s not even like they got him this deal that no one else could have gotten to start with. So my take on that is, yes, he probably should. I have no idea what he’s gonna do. He never seems to do the thing that you expect him to do, right? Like, he— signing— from— from the very beginning, signing with the Angels was a weird thing for him to do, you know? If he was eventually going to go to the Dodgers at the end of the day anyway. Like, so I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know how to make any predictions on what he will do. He’s such a private person, which is why all of this is even more insane that this is happening, because now his whole private life is kind of on front street.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: Well, again, it’s like he’s— he’s also a very loyal person, right? It’s— as— as we’ve seen, he finds the people who he trusts and he trusts them, right? And now, he’s lost this key figure in his life. And so would he then change agency and, like, flip everything upside down? I don’t— because, like, the— the sense that I get is, like, he just wants to play baseball. And I know that like most baseball players just want to play baseball, but he may be more than most other people is like, “I literally just want to go out there and play. You know, I’m not necessarily trying to turn myself into the highest earner of all-time or whatever.” He— if he gets that accolade, by all means, but I think the sense is that he’s like, “I want to win, and be good. And be on the field for as long as I can. And so whoever is going to help me do that, I will do that, right? So if that means staying with CAA, and knocking a few million dollars off my potential earning power, then— then so be it. Now, if that’s knocking millions of dollars out of my bank account every few years.” Like, maybe that’s a different story, but I don’t know. It just seem like— seems like he’s— I have— like, avoidant to change, you know?
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: So relatable.
ALEX: Same, so relatable.
HANNAH: Yes. I mean, that gets back to the like— again, to put a bow on all of this crazy, that he’s still playing baseball very well and—
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
HANNAH: —unbothered by—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: —the details of that being public, but also just, like, the loss of the person he was closest to. So you’re right. It’s like— it does seem his single-minded focus on this story being done for all intensive purposes feels like— I guess he’s not going to drag it out any longer than it absolutely has to be. Like, he’s—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: He’s like done talking about it for the rest of his life.
ALEX: Yeah, right.
BOBBY: Just in case, you’re worried that it was gonna affect his performance, he does have a 182 wRC+, which is better than he’s ever had in any season in his career.
HANNAH: That’s crazy. I mean, I’m just like— again, reasons that I would not be able to be a professional baseball player. I feel like [1:11:55] I just kind of had a hard day at home. I’m just thinking about that. Like—
BOBBY: So we don’t know whether Ohtani will change representation, but we know that a certain super agent is down a client this past week. Maybe Ohtani can fill in the Jordan Montgomery spot at the Boras Corp.
HANNAH: Don’t say that.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Do you— is this— is there like fire behind this smoke? Or is this just like a common occurrence? So if you’re— if you’re listening and you don’t know Jordan Montgomery, after signing what many believe was a— an underwhelming contract this offseason, in the— in the winter of a Boras failures, Boras L’s, I guess, for the first time in a long time. Scott Boras got contracts that people deemed not good for his clients, his four top clients, and maybe misread the tenure of the offseason and the teams that he was trying to get to pay those guys. Jordan Montgomery has decided to switch agents. People were kind of like making a lot out of this. I’m wondering, Hannah, do you think that this is like the beginning of a trend of people moving away from Boras as being the guy that you go to for the free agent payday? Because that’s what he’s been for so long.
HANNAH: I don’t know that this is the beginning of a trend. I don’t know that— I think people want Boras to fail, because it’s— because he’s kind of like interpersonally smug. And I don’t want that— I— I enjoyed this Jordan Montgomery news, not because I have it out for Scott Boras, necessarily, but because I felt like it was a more honest reaction. Like, I— I’d sort of juxtapose that with, like, Blake Snell’s comments were very kinda like— ended up in the right place at the end of the day, and I was like, “Really?” And I just— I find— right. I find this to be— I find it to be an interesting insight into what we very rarely get any kind of honesty from a player on how the free agent process went. And that’s— you know, like, they’re not going to sit at their introductory press conference and be like, “Didn’t want to be here.” And so I just thought this was, like, an interesting— like, I was like, “Great. Okay. So you didn’t think that went well? Good to know.” Like, I— and I’m sure some number of free agencies for guys who are and are not with Scott Boras and up in a way where they’re like slightly disappointed. I think Boras’ ability to come up short once does not necessarily mean like he’s not the right choice for most superstars who are looking to maximize their earning potential. I just think it means like yes, we have some level of validation from one of the players who was with him, that they felt like this offseason did not go the way they intended it. And I thought— and I appreciate that. That— that is like the extent of my feelings on this, is just like, yes, okay, we all thought like, “It seems like Boras maybe fuck this up, or the market a little bit wrong.” Like— and to have Jordan Montgomery be like, “Yeah, also feel that way.” It’s just like interesting narratively for me in the sport. I don’t think it like means that Boras has lost his touch and everyone’s going to leave. And there’s like several other ascendance super agent. Like, he’s still the guy who gets players the most money and is, like, very savvy at maximizing their earning potential. I’m very curious to see— I’m very— based off— this offseason to me feels a little bit like an anomaly because of the teams that weren’t really in play, and that’s something Boras should have seen coming, because like he knew that the Phillies roster was pretty well filled out and that the Padres were going to look to retrench a little bit after Peter Seidler’s death and that, like, the Washington Nationals are not in a place [1:15:36] like he could have surveyed the landscape and seen that the teams that he usually deals with were not gonna—
BOBBY: Yeah. The Mets are being run by a Moneyball guy now finally.
HANNAH: Yeah. It’s like— right. That like— this was maybe not the offseason to try to, like, get four different dudes—
BOBBY: Pit two teams against each other, yeah.
HANNAH: Yeah. All of which [1:15:52] I am— I reserve the right to be like, “Oh, yeah, he is cooked,” if the Juan Soto free agency doesn’t go well.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: I’m very interested to see how that plays out.
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: Because that feels like a— with a barometer in terms of, like, potentially a $500 million contract. Like— like a barometer setting contract. But also, the Juan Soto story as it stands is there is a number out there that they need to tap, and it is a big number. And it’s maybe not like exactly what Juan Soto is worth, but that extension that the Nationals offered him, like, below market in the sense of like— if you were to calculate his value per [1:16:30] but a reasonable extension offer from a team that he has expressed, repeatedly since then, that he was very happy to stay with. And I’ll be interested to see— this gets back to the sort of Jordan Montgomery thing. I’ll be interested to see whether Juan Soto himself is happy with the free agent experience he ends up having, because of how unhappy he was and has been with the way that not taking an extension with the Nationals played out for him. Like, I think like everyone is well within their rights to maximize their earning potential and to prioritize that above all else, but he made a conscious decision, likely advised by Boras. I mean, certainly advised by Boras whether or not he, like, took that advice, more or less than he should have, we don’t know. But, like, certainly advised by Boras to reject an extension that was, again, below his technical market value with the Nationals. But that— rejecting that extension and getting traded, Juan Soto has been unequivocal about how he did not enjoy that experience. He did not enjoy being traded. He is sad to, like— you know, soured on the team that he— that raised him or whatever and so like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: Boras owes him not just a lot of money, but a satisfying free agent experience and the opportunity to end up somewhere long term with the kind of stability that Boras didn’t secure these guys’ past offseason, that makes Juan Soto happy. So I’ll be really interested to see whether he delivers on that this upcoming offseason.
BOBBY: I think it’s an expectations game for me, personally, like the narrative around Boras. You think— you should know what to expect when you sign with Boras. And if you’re in the media, or if you’re a fan, you should know what to expect when you’re talking about trying to sign a player that is a Boras guy, or trying to extend the guy who is a Boras guy when he’s on your team and his free agency is approaching. You should know what is going to happen.
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: And frankly, like not to denigrate these specific guys, because I think earlier in their careers, they had maybe a brighter outlook on what their free agency might look like. But Matt Chapman, Cody Bellinger, Jordan Montgomery, and Blake Snell, this is not Bryce Harper, Gerrit Cole, Juan Soto, and—
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: —Francisco Lindor. Like, what are we talking— like these guys are not 10-year contract guys in a normal market. And so I think that it’s a combination of Boras trying to, like, strong arm teams the way that he always has and then not working quite as well as it has the last two seasons. And these guys’ career is not going maybe how we thought they were gonna go in the first three years of their career. Like, especially, I think Bell, Hunter, and Chapman. Now, you could argue that Blake Snell was the most hard [1:19:12] by this offseason. The guy has two Cy Youngs, you know? And he’s like two seasons—
HANNAH: And he— and he’s likely—
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: And he’s likely to not be coming off a Cy Young season again like [1:19:21] the year.
BOBBY: When he hits free—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. And why— why is he signing like Carlos Rodon deals? The guy that’s—
HANNAH: Right.
BOBBY: —been really injured and like not as effective even when he has been healthy. So I think that it’s just like— its expectations versus reality a little bit. And I think that if you actually, like, follow the history of Boras clients, like this would have been if he got these guys contracts, like he got the previous guys, that would have been kind of like pulling a rabbit out of a hat from my perspective. And it’s just happened that all four of these guys kind of lined up as being the top free agents in the class that was pretty— you know, pretty down compared to what it’s been in the last three or four years.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, I— to your point, Hannah, I just think it’s interesting to sort of have the curtain pulled back a little bit. There’s this assumption that the Boras— that Scott Boras is a bit of a— I don’t know, he’s got the magic touch when it comes to negotiations. And frankly, like player-agent relations and kind of how those negotiations go is one of the parts of baseball that feels like a little bit more of a black—
HANNAH: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: —box to me, right? Where I’m just kind of like, I don’t understand what you’re looking for and what draws you to an agent beyond, like, maximizing your earnings.” And it does feel like we’re in a kind of interesting point where players are a little more aware of, like, their own power as workers and a little more interested maybe, and sort of maximizing that while also retaining like— I— I don’t know, the, like, general interpersonal, like, relationships and that, I don’t know, you take into account when signing with the team. So I— I don’t really know where I was going with that thought, but I think the next couple of years are going to be an interesting sort of test case for, like, whether Boras still has— still— whether he still got it—
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: — or not. I don’t know.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: I could— I think we could be baseball agents. I think we could pool our talents and— and make a play there.
BOBBY: I think that you and I should just be each other’s agents, Alex. Like, you should—
HANNAH: Aw.
BOBBY: I should show up to your job when you’re getting ready to get a raise and I should be like, “Nope. I think Alex needs 10% more.” You know?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Just like bring me in a suit like in Good— in Goodwill Hunting, you know?
HANNAH: Do you guys wanna be my agents? I feel like—
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: There you go.
HANNAH: —that will be helpful.
BOBBY: Sure.
HANNAH: Yes. I am— I— I mean, at some point, Boras has got to be done. It’s not to say like— again, this is not like— Boras, please do not— he will listen to this and text us.
ALEX: Right.
HANNAH: That’s not to say like [1:21:47]
BOBBY: I promise you Scott Boras is not listening to this. I promise you.
HANNAH: He might— if— if you put his name in the description, he might— but I just— right. Like— and there— it’s been— will there ever be a changing of the guard? I don’t know. This has been to back-to-back agents, are they doing right by their con—
ALEX: I know.
HANNAH: —conversations?
BOBBY: But I think that like— I don’t know that Scott Boras created this [1:22:16] though, The, like— the idea of holding out until you get the most is like a fundamental baseball tenet, you know? Like a baseball—
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: —market tenant because there is no top[1:22:27]
HANNAH: It’s Marvin Miller’s birthday.
BOBBY: Oh, really?
HANNAH: We should— we should— yeah, we should shout-out Marvin Miller who’s the—
BOBBY: How about that?
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: Oh, my gosh.
HANNAH: It’s [1:22:34]
ALEX: I— I feel a little lame for not even realizing.
BOBBY: Yeah. I feel like we should—
ALEX: I’m like—
BOBBY: We should make it more of a thing out of that, probably.
HANNAH: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
HANNAH: The Marvin Miller commemorative episode.
BOBBY: So we have a couple more topics here. We probably only have time for, like, one of them, and then we have some fun slogans for some Major League Baseball teams coming up. Or we can just head straight to the slogans, I’ll— I’ll leave it up to you.
HANNAH: Okay. Well, I came up with too many slogans, so maybe we should just head to the slogans.
BOBBY: Okay, let’s do that.
ALEX: Let’s do it.
HANNAH: I was so— I was— I’ve already, like, gone long on everything, I feel like.
BOBBY: Let’s do some slogans.
ALEX: That’s— that’s what we’re here for.
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: So have you shared your Mets slogan yet or is that’s just—
BOBBY: I have not yet. I’ll go last.
HANNAH: All right. Oh, you’ll go last?
BOBBY: Yes.
HANNAH: But it feels like you got it set up.
BOBBY: But I’m still kind of like deciding, you know? Like—
ALEX: We’re— we’re all waiting to see who the other person’s slogan is.
HANNAH: What? What [1:23:19] were you recording?
BOBBY: I have to see— we’re gonna record until the Mets start today and then I’ll see how the first couple innings go.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And then I’ll decide what the vibe is heading in. So for context, for context, the— this segment started two years— it’s not really even a segment. We’re turning it into a segment this year. Two years ago, Alex and I were in Washington for opening weekend. And when you’re in the away team’s park, you’re wearing— you’re wearing like your team’s gear and you see another fan. And they say, “Let’s go, Mets.” You can’t just say the same thing back, because then you seem like a loser. You can’t also be like, “Let’s go, Mets.” Well, you can’t all— you— but then you kind of just like look at the person and you’re like, “Yeah.” You know, like it just kind of peters out, that interaction never goes well. So I decided at the beginning of the season, here’s what I’m going to say back to every person who says, “Let’s go, Mets.” Or says something about the Mets gear that I’m wearing. And I believe the first year, it was, “This is the year,” because this was 2022, when they were playing very well. And the team was good. There was a lot of optimism. Last year, not quite as much, not quite as much optimism going on. I opted to use the phrase, “Keep the faith.”
HANNAH: Hmm.
BOBBY: “Keep the faith— you gotta keep your head up. You know, keep the faith.” This year, I believe the phrase that I would like to use is, “Hang in there.”
HANNAH: All right.
BOBBY: Because, like, there’s optimism still. You know, like there are some good players on the team.
HANNAH: Yeah.
BOBBY: Lindor is gonna be here for a while. The David Stearns era has begun, even though I’m the number one David Stearns skeptic. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this.
HANNAH: Ooh, I’m not, but I kind of am, too. All right.
BOBBY: Great. Wonderful. You— you’re— you’re welcome to—
ALEX: Don’t— don’t give him the opportunity. He’s gonna talk for like a half hour if we go that—
HANNAH: Oh, no. I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
BOBBY: You’re welcome to join our club. We meet on Wednesdays. The David Stearns Skeptics.
HANNAH: We’ll do the [1:25:05]
BOBBY: “Hang in there.” That’s what I’m gonna say to people.
HANNAH: All right.
BOBBY: “Hang in there.”
HANNAH: Okay.
ALEX: New York Mets:—
HANNAH: New York Mets, hang in there.
ALEX: —hang in there.
HANNAH: Hang in there.
BOBBY: Batten down the hatches.
HANNAH: Teams used to have slogans— like when you would go to their independent— I don’t know if they still do. I’m, like, just checking. When you would go to their website— oh, yeah. You know what? They kind of do. The— I just picked the Giants at random to check, and it says, “You go to sf— if you go to mlb.com/giants, it says, ‘San Francisco Giants, nothing like it.”
BOBBY: Hmm.
HANNAH: That seems they did a bad job. Dodgers don’t—
ALEX: They didn’t do a very good job.
HANNAH: Dodgers don’t have one. All right. Okay. Fine. Good to know. Let’s see if the Meds have one. Padres don’t have one. Okay. So for some reason, only the— only the Giants have one. Maybe this was not true. Oh, “Baseball hits different here that’s what the other Mets— the— the real Mets are going with, they went with, “Baseball hits different here.” So I think—
BOBBY: That sucks. That slogan sucks.
ALEX: That feels a little too like Gen Z— like, you know, this hits different, right?
BOBBY: Exactly.
HANNAH: Yes.
BOBBY: It’s like logs on to TikTok once.
ALEX: Like [1:26:07] right. New York Mets, it’s giving mother.
BOBBY: New York Mets, let’s rizz them up.
HANNAH: Oh, no. So they didn’t— they didn’t— they didn’t try to go quite so like— Phillies went with, “Ring the bell.” I think they always do, though.
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: All right. So— so they didn’t go specific enough to the year like you did, or like I did. I tried— I was very— I did not want the early part of the season to influence me, so I didn’t go like, “Royals, it’s 2015 all over again.” [1:26:42] All right, here’s what we got here. here’s what we got here. These are completely random. I was just like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
HANNAH: —what are the teams that occurred to me first? Yankees, “One shot to make it work.” Yeah? Yeah, because they got Juan Soto.
BOBBY: Spelled like— yeah. Yeah, that’s wonderful.
HANNAH: Yeah, exactly. All right. Angels, “From a certain perspective, we divested just in time.”
BOBBY: A little wordy, but we could get it on a shirt. Maybe not on a hat, but definitely on a shirt.
HANNAH: Yeah. Padres, “Regression to the mean.”
BOBBY: That’s good.
ALEX: Hmm, that’s good.
BOBBY: Yes, because they need that.
HANNAH: They will be good this year. I— like they— they could have run back last year and win— probably win one, yeah. Twins, “The best team that can’t stay on the field.” They can use that, like, every year. That’s just like—
ALEX: They really can, yeah.
HANNAH: They’re just universal Twins. Orioles, “Do the ends not justify the means?”
BOBBY: Aw.
HANNAH: And I’ve tried— I do—
BOBBY: You know that I’m the number— I’m also the number one Mike Elias Orioles Skeptic too. That support group meets on Fridays, though.
HANNAH: Okay.
BOBBY: So if you have the— if you’re busy that day.
HANNAH: And then the last one that I came up with was the Brewers, this is probably too long, but, “You don’t have to outrun the bear. You just have to outrun the rest of the NL Central.”
BOBBY: That’s good. I like that. I think the Brewers are gonna win the NL Central, so I think that’s wonderful.
HANNAH: That’s— yeah. That’s what I got for you. What do you think?
BOBBY: I love them. Phenomenal [1:28:04]
HANNAH: They should put those on the [1:28:04]
ALEX: Those are amazing.
BOBBY: We are going to— for the listeners at home, we’re going to ask guests when they come on to share some slogans for all 30 teams. So we will eventually run through all of the teams if you’re listening at home and you’re a fan of one of the teams that was not yet mentioned in this segment. So let’s— let’s— let’s run through them briefly one more time. “Hang in there,” for the Mets.
HANNAH: Yeah. Yankees, “One shot to make this work.” Angels, “From a certain perspective, we divested just in time.” Padres, “Regression to the mean.”
BOBBY: That’s so good.
HANNAH: Twins, “The best team that can stay on the field.” Orioles, “Do the ends not justify the means?” And brewers, “You don’t have to outrun the bear. You just have to outrun the rest of the NL Central.:
BOBBY: Hannah Keyser, thank you so much. You always go above and beyond whenever you come on Tipping Pitches. We appreciate it. We appreciate you doing that homework assignment, and adding even— even more slogans into there. Is there anything that you would like to point people towards in terms of work that you would like them to see and/or consume?
HANNAH: Oh, gosh. Apparently none. I really enjoyed the DH piece, and if you haven’t read it, it’s somewhat timeless, so you can read it on theringer.com. I’m on SNY, like, every week. I’m on MLB Network sometimes. Still looking for a job, so if you are an editor and you’re listening to this, you should hire me.
BOBBY: Have you been on SNY with Jerry Blevins yet?
HANNAH: Not this year.
BOBBY: Have you guys shared—
HANNAH: —but in— in previous years, we— we have, yeah.
BOBBY: We gotta talk about Jerry’s hair. It looks so good. I— it’s unbelievable. What’s he doing?
HANNAH: Interesting.
ALEX: The hair, the stache, the—
BOBBY: It’s a lot going on.
ALEX: He’s— he’s got something going on.
HANNAH: [1:29:34]
BOBBY: But it looks so good. Friend of the pod, Jerry Blevins. So I’m— I’m proud of him.
ALEX: He looks like he started going to Bryce Harper’s, like, hairstylist, if we’re being honest.
BOBBY: He looks like a guy who was forced to hide his hair under a hat his whole career. Now, that he’s done playing, he can finally let it fucking breathe. I’m happy for him.
HANNAH: Yeah. This is also— just to shout-out to SNY for— they’ve been really lovely to me about the pregnancy. They’re like super— like, “How are you feeling?” It’s very nice.
BOBBY: That’s great. Yeah,
HANNAH: In like a supportive way, not in like a condescending way. And, yeah, that’s all I got. I’m making a person, so that’s what I’m working on these days.
ALEX: A player to be named later.
HANNAH: Yeah, I guess.
ALEX: Thank you so much, Hannah.
SPEAKER 4: Yes, it all makes sense now. Is this just a life preserver? Or bivouac tenure? This tropic—
BOBBY: Okay. Thanks to Hannah. Thanks to you, Alex, for being a fixer.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: For just being you. Never change.
ALEX: I try to bring— bring my whole self to the table, you know?
BOBBY: Would you say that this is an—
ALEX: [1:30:44]
BOBBY: —honest look into your personality that— that we have out there?
ALEX: I— I mean, there’s very little out there, so probably. Like, just by virtue of the options.
BOBBY: As I said at the beginning of the episode— as I said at the beginning of the episode, 785-422-5881, please call in and leave us a voicemail to be featured on next week’s episode. Or if you do not want to call, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. You could DM us a question, tipping_pitches on Twitter. Tag us in Slack if you’re a patron. All that good stuff. You know, there’s many ways to get in— in touch with us. We have a Patreon episode coming up later this week, so if you enjoyed this episode, and you’re like, “I just need another one.” Three days from now. Go check that out, tipping—
ALEX: Go get it. Yeah.
BOBBY: patreon.com/tippingpitches. You will get it, I promise. You just have to pay for it. Sir, we’re selling our wares, and our wares are running through the list of NYU’s Board of Trustees and talking about the cool stuff that they did.
ALEX: Because it’s good. Someone had to do it.
BOBBY: Someone does have to, I mean under capitalism. Profit means demands to be met— made.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: It demands. One day, one of these people is going to buy a baseball team and I’m going to run into the street, scream in joy.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: The— the greatest episode of the show is on its way. That’s what we’re gonna say to people. Please subscribe [1:32:07]
ALEX: That’s gonna be the— the singularity. You know, that’s like— that’s gonna be our— our eclipse when the— when the moon passes in front of the sun, and we’re just like, “Oh, my God.” Everything had to line up perfectly for this to happen. The three body problem is actually me trying to decide whether or not I talked about the NYU board member, David Stearns. Or what’s another bugaboo of mine? Oh, Mike Elias, I guess.
ALEX: Sure. Yeah.
BOBBY: Also, coming up with the Patreon is a newsletter from one Alex Bazeley. That’s truly the window into your soul, because it’s like—
ALEX: Probably, yeah.
BOBBY: You’re like, “This is something that I was thinking about at 3:00 in the morning. I will— I will write about it.”
ALEX: Yes, exactly.
BOBBY: “I will read 17 Wikipedia pages and write about it.”
ALEX: Yeah, this is why we’re recording this at, like, noon on a Sunday. Not on my best, not on my best right now. You know, you gotta— you gotta give me about 10 or 12 hours.
BOBBY: If— if we’re being honest with ourselves, and we were only making the decisions based on content and not about, like, our lives or anything or anybody, we would record this every night at, like, 8:00 pm.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That would turn the best episodes out. So if there’s somebody out there right now, potentially in— I’m just gonna throw out a random city, Topeka, Kansas, who has an open hour slot on FM radio at like 8:00 pm, 9:00 pm, even I’ll go with 7:00 pm. We’re gonna [1:33:29] a little earlier right after dinner. We’re your guys. Call us, 785-422-5881. You’ll recognize the area code. Okay. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Thanks again to Hannah for joining for such a long time and for such a great chat. Please read Hannah’s piece about the DH in The Ringer and all of the other good stuff that Hannah is doing on MLB Network and SNY and elsewhere, and we’ll be back next week.
SPEAKER 5: This card, postmarked December 23. The caption reads: “How does he do it?”
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
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