Bobby and Alex open with a dramatic reading of the New York Yankees statement on the death of Henry Kissinger and try to parse why the hell a baseball team would feel the need to release it. Then, they speed round (lol) some news items from the last couple weeks, including Ohtani and Soto rumors, Steve Cohen’s casino, and more. Finally, they open the mailbag to allow a bevy of listeners to yell at them about running, matchmake for Taylor Swift, share managerial interview tactics, and make sense of the Jackson Chourio extension.
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Songs featured in this episode:
No Thank You — “Saturn Return” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Transcript
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and—and—and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out, so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about? That’s amazing! That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, I think we have to start today by being profoundly saddened.
ALEX: I think so.
BOBBY: The whole baseball world is profoundly saddened from— from how I understand it. But the Yankees are the only team brave enough to say it.
ALEX: Brave enough to say it with their chests.
BOBBY: Statement from the New York Yankees regarding the passing of former United States Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. “The Yankees are profoundly saddened by the passing of former United States secretary Henry Kissinger, who performed varied and vital diplomatic and advisory roles throughout his distinguished career. A lifelong friend of the Yankees organization, he was a frequent welcome guest of the Steinbrenner family at Yankee Stadium. We offer our heartfelt condolences to his family, friends and all who had the privilege of knowing him. He will be deeply missed.” So many questions, so many questions. First question, what do you think the salary is of the person who wrote this statement?
ALEX: I mean, here’s the thing, is like— so I— there’s an— I wrote a newsletter about this. It’s—
BOBBY: Go off.
ALEX: —it’s— it’s— it’s waiting to be edited.
BOBBY: I forgot to read it.
ALEX: It’s— it’s— it’s okay. But I— you know, I try and explore some of these questions in here, but the— the prevailing thing I sort of kept coming back to while reading this, and writing, and thinking about this is, like, this statement could have come from the Steinbrenner family, and just made a lot more sense, I guess, because like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —Kissinger is— which— Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, right?
BOBBY: Former Secretary of State.
ALEX: Former Secretary of State.
BOBBY: Although, you know, he was still advising into his late 90s.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: From how I understand it.
ALEX: I just— he was a friend of the boss.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Of George Steinbrenner.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: They were— they were very close, especially in the 1970s after— shortly after George bought the team and— and Henry was, I don’t know, making his mark on the world, you could say.
BOBBY: What do you— what do you think brought them together? Probably shared values.
ALEX: Shared values. Steinbrenner loved Kissinger’s boss at the time.
BOBBY: Nixon?
ALEX: When— when Dickey— Dickey Nick. [02:58]
BOBBY: You know, a few years ago on this podcast, we did the Least Terrible Owners Draft and you and I, with our chests, chose the Steinbrenner family. We were like, “They just want to put a good product on the field.” You know?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: They got rich from baseball.
ALEX: In fact—
BOBBY: They’re not— they’re not leaving this terrible legacy that other owners have left and, like, flash-forward—
ALEX: Re— as— as recent as this week, you and I were talking, we were saying— we watched the BBQ Boys on our— in— in the draft.
BOBBY: Yeah, we did. We were talking about that, because we’re gonna tell them that when they come back on the podcast.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yankees came in from the top rope.
BOBBY: Seriously. Tweet this out from the official Yankees Twitter account is so gnarly.
ALEX: It’s so offensive.
BOBBY: I can’t believe they did this. I can’t believe they did this. My second question, would you— ignore my first question, the salary of the person who wrote the statement. My second question—
ALEX: High, very high.
BOBBY: Like, 200K, more?
ALEX: I mean, I— I have to— this is not like a social media intern who wrote this up. I have to assume—
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: —that this is like— like Hal’s personal assistant.
BOBBY: Like multiple people who passed— multiple people who passed the bar looked at the statement—
ALEX: Yes, exactly.
BOBBY: —before it was— before it was messaged out. My second question is, do you think that they had this statement prepared? And if so, for how long?
ALEX: Right. And one of the things were like, do you write the obituary before?
BOBBY: Do you think this was a file on a social media manager’s desktop for years, or do you think they wrote this after the death?
ALEX: I was thinking about that, as I do. I— I come down on the side of— I— I think they probably wrote it, like, in real time.
BOBBY: I think so, too.
ALEX: Because, you know—
BOBBY: There’s nothing in here that— there’s something in here that’s different enough to make me think that it, like, was written ahead of time.
ALEX: Right. And also, like, they don’t have a ton of— like they’re not— they’re not a news organization, so there’s not a compelling reason that they need, like, the obit to go up— the— you know, the eulogy to go up immediately.
BOBBY: It was up the next morning, though.
ALEX: It was up the next morning. They turned it around very quickly.
BOBBY: Right. He kicked the old bucket at, like, late.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It was like 10:00 pm, right?
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Something like that. Well, there was scuttlebutt going around about it.
BOBBY: Yeah, there was.
ALEX: Like, early that morning, I was like, is this gonna be the day? Like—
BOBBY: There was scuttlebutt.
ALEX: There—
BOBBY: I didn’t see any of the scuttlebutt. I’m actually happy about that. You know what I was doing when I found out that Kissinger died?
ALEX: What?
BOBBY: I was watching Ferrari, the Michael Mann movie. Paused it, and I was like—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —hands straight in the air.
ALEX: Yeah. I just like, oh—
BOBBY: Queen’s We Are the Champions playing in my head.
ALEX: It just changed the direction of my evening, you know? I was like, “I can’t go to bed now.” I gotta say, really disappointed in— in Twitter that—
BOBBY: Really?
ALEX: —that evening. I don’t know. It felt like we— we— there was a lot of jokes gotten off in, like, the hour or so following the news breaking. And then I don’t know. I— the— the Twitter of yesteryear, I think would have— would have made this into one of the greatest days of all time on the platform. And this more than anything else, I think, convinces me that the— the— the site is in its Twilight.
BOBBY: Right. That it’s over the hill.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Do you remember when Trump got COVID?
ALEX: Right. Like, that’s where my mind goes back to.
BOBBY: Exactly. That was the greatest day in the history of Twitter. We peaked.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: We’re never getting back there. We’re not.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: The reason I asked about whether this statement was written ahead of time was because of the fact that was being passed around that one of the people— one of the principal contributors to the Kissinger New York Times obit died in the year 2010.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Did you— did you see and—
BOBBY: 2010?
ALEX: 2010 and—
BOBBY: I was a freshman in high school.
ALEX: I know. They gotta be ready. He actually outlived the writer who wrote that journalist’s obituary.
BOBBY: Oh.
ALEX: I’m not— I’m not making it up.
BOBBY: Oh, man. What did you do after you saw this news? I watched Dr. Strangelove.
ALEX: The— the news— the news of him—
BOBBY: I mean, not—
ALEX: Okay. Not the—
BOBBY: —not after you saw the statement.
ALEX: —the statement.
BOBBY: You were at work, right?
ALEX: I— I was working, I was like, “How do I continue with my day?”
BOBBY: You took some [7:24] yeah.
ALEX: I— I don’t know. I— I texted you first.
BOBBY: Yeah, you did. You— you texted our friend group and no one responded, except me.
ALEX: And no one responded. I was like, “I guess that’s not the fucking audience.” And none of them are listening to this, so we can— we can roast them here, but—
BOBBY: Exactly.
ALEX: —I sent a— a cheeky little cheers, no response.
BOBBY: I went to—
ALEX: That’s what happens when your— when your friend group is not as, like, chronically online, you know?
BOBBY: I went to the Tipping Pitches Patreon— the Tipping Pitches Slack, which— you know what? As much as Twitter might have fallen short, the Tipping Pitches Slack did not.
ALEX: No, it did not. In— in fact, I would argue they broke the news for me, because I have— I don’t have— I don’t have notifications on for the entire Slack, because that would be insane behavior.
BOBBY: Your phone would freeze up.
ALEX: But I have it on for like certain keywords like—
BOBBY: Me, too.
ALEX: And— and one—
BOBBY: Kissinger dead.
ALEX: Kissinger— no, one of them is— is Oh, my God.
BOBBY: That’s so funny. I didn’t know that.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I only— the only keywords I have are Tipping Pitches and then both of our names.
ALEX: See, I want to know what people are like freaking out about, and so I saw three different notifications come in that were like, “Oh, my God.” And I was like, “What happened?”
BOBBY: This is what the internet was designed for.
ALEX: It really was.
BOBBY: Listen, if you wanted— if you want to be a part of that type of— if you want to live in that type of moment, Tipping Pitches Patreon—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —patreon.com/tippingpitches. You can get access to that Slack, where people are breaking news like that to Alex in real time for any tier. $5 a month is all you need to get in there and be part of the community, reacting to important news like this. Anything else on this or shall— shall we move on? Anything else on this that you would be willing to say for public consumption? Remember, we’re back on the main feed.
ALEX: We’re back in the main feed, important—
BOBBY: We’re not— we’re not on the Patreon feed where we can get a little bit looser.
ALEX: No, I don’t think so. I— I— I spilled my thoughts in— in the newsletter that will come out this week, that goes a little bit deeper into some of the, frankly, remarkable relationship that he had with the team.
BOBBY: And with just baseball. There’s always—
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: —a baseball tie-in. How is it—
ALEX: Yeah, I know.
BOBBY: There’s— it’s always something.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Always something with this goddamn sport.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: I— like, I don’t understand.
ALEX: It’s— it’s pretty crazy.
BOBBY: Okay. We’re gonna spend most of today’s episode answering some mailbag questions, some voicemails— really only one voicemail, the rest of the voicemail, I’ll explain it later. We’re also going to do some quick hit reactions to some of the news items of the last couple weeks since we banked those last two episodes. Before we do that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to tipping pitches.
[theme]
BOBBY: Alex, thank you to the new patrons over the last couple of weeks. Those patrons are Sam, Dadley Rutschman. [10:25] Got a little chuckle out of me, I will admit. Joseph, Joshua, Daniel, Caitlin, Julianne, and Martin. Thanks to all of you. That last one, Martin, that’s Martin Scorsese.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Yeah, that’s Martin Scorsese. He’s listening to the pod these days.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Making movies, listening to the pod. It’s all he’s doing, TikToks.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: A couple of TikToks here and there.
ALEX: He’s actually— he is in the Slack, I will say. Subscribe to the Patreon. He’s in the Slack. It’s his only other social media.
BOBBY: He curates the film and TV channel. He’s just in there. That’s him. Thank you, Martin. Alex, news items. Are you ready to do a speed round?
ALEX: I’m locked and loaded.
BOBBY: Are you committed to the concept of a speed round today? Or should we just nix this? Because most of the times like speed round and you’re like, “Well, you know—”
ALEX: Like, speed round and then like, let’s have a little chat about it.
BOBBY: “—I think I— yeah. I’m— yeah. I think about this and I think about my answer. And I want to make it sound smart and good. And then”— it’s a speed round. Give me your thoughts.
ALEX: All right.
BOBBY: That’s what you talk like. Definitely. “Oh, well”— Juan Soto, he is gonna get traded—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —from the San Diego Padres.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: He might get traded to the New York Yankees.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: He might get traded to the Toronto Blue Jays.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: He might get traded to one of the other 27 teams.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: What do you think? Should the Yankees give up Michael King?
ALEX: They’re— the amount—
BOBBY: Or should they hold firm?
ALEX: The amount of Yankees chatter around this— this over the last week has also frankly made Twitter [11:47]
BOBBY: I know.
ALEX: Like, yes, they should— they should give up the farm for the chance to have Juan Soto. I’m— I don’t know. I’m not qualified enough to talk about which prospects me—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —being put together like a compelling package. But a part of me is just like, “Soto, good. Trade for a good player. He’s like— he’s 25 years old which I think is like—
BOBBY: I know. It’s so ridiculous.
ALEX: It still boggles my mind, you know?
BOBBY: He’s gonna be two years younger than us for the rest of our lives. Like, that’s how age works.
ALEX: Yup. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: So he— he’s never gonna catch up to us in age.
ALEX: He’s never gonna catch up to us, nope.
BOBBY: It’s always gonna be there making us—
ALEX: So I’m saying he may have surpassed us in other ways.
BOBBY: —making us feel inadequate.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: My dominant takeaway is that this is just a— a modern Yankees organization conundrum that we’re facing, and we’ve seen— it seems like we’ve seen this so many times where they’re— they’re— they want the good player.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: They want the best player. But they’re a little too smart for their own good. They’re a little too haughty for their own good. They’re a little too process-oriented for their own good. They’re a little too concerned about medium to long-term player development for their own good. They seem to come in second or third a lot for the players that they claim to want the most. And I think that they’re— they’re missing in their in-analysis [13:05] of the market, whatever that means for baseball. They are still trying to, like, set the terms of the market and they— I don’t think that they’ve sort of adjusted their priors as an organization of what it actually takes to get some of these premium players, that all these— that seven other organizations that are now willing to spend money are willing to pay. And I think that that is compounded by the fact that Hal Steinbrenner seems to lean a lot more in on that type of team building than his dad ever would have, than Henry’s bud [13:34] ever would have. So I’m just waiting for the moment where they’re going to be the team— there’s been a couple of moments where they’ve been the team that blows the other teams out of the water. Like, Gerrit Cole is a really good example of them.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: But you kind of have to do that, like, four or five times now to build a team. Or— or you just have to continue to build— you— you have to continue to develop homegrown talent, and they have faltered like a little bit on that front.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And so they seem to be an organization in no man’s land right now, and a great way to get out of no man’s land is to get Juan Soto on your team.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s like a—
BOBBY: And be the first in line to sign him when he becomes a free agent, because I don’t—
ALEX: Right. Right.
BOBBY: —think he’s gonna sign an extension a year early. [14:14]
ALEX: Exactly. Like, you give yourself a leg up and you have a whole year then to—
BOBBY: Convince him why he should stay.
ALEX: Yeah, exactly.
BOBBY: And all the Yankees people are always like once you get to the Yankees, you realize— you put on the pinstripes and it— it changes your brain chemistry and you—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —realize that this is a— what a first-class organization looks like. Well, they are paying for the opportunity to confirm all of those things.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And convince Juan Soto that he should come there.
ALEX: Yeah. Every team would be lucky to have a player like him in the lineup. I think that is an uncontroversial thing to say. I feel like Yankees fans are kind of at a point where there’s, you know, been a sort of internal backlash to the idea that they only buy players, right, and so they— you know, you want to believe in— in your homegrown players in— in Michael King and Jasson Dominguez and— and— but at a certain point, you can’t get too cute with it, right? Like, Soto is quite literally a generational talent.
BOBBY: What— what are the Padres doing?
ALEX: I— I don’t know.
BOBBY: What’s going on there.
ALEX: What is going on there?
BOBBY: Clearly, an organization in flux right now. They obviously lost their owner a few weeks ago. We didn’t really talk about that because we— we were recording ahead of time and it didn’t really fit into either of the episodes that we were doing. But Peter Seidler died a few weeks back. Seidler was credited as the guy who was giving the front office the flexibility to maybe punch above their weight. Obviously, it’s not actually really punching above their weight, but by the— by the standards— the weights and measures of the baseball community. It felt like they were punching above their weight and it felt like other teams felt that way too. And it— it also— for what it’s worth, it felt like other members of Padres ownership who were not the control— the control person felt that way, and Seidler was just basically giving them the middle finger. Really interesting legacy as an owner. I’m not really interested in parsing all of that as it relates to his death. I— I think that it’s sad to lose a person who— around the baseball world seems to be relatively respected, but I don’t really know— I can’t claim to know the person, can’t claim to know him the way that some other reporters came out and said that he was kind of like the model version of the modern baseball owner. I— I only— we’ve only ever observed from the outside, but I do think that as an— as an organization, for me, they are officially going in the wrong direction now, the Padres. They’re trying to get rid of the guy who was supposed to push them over the— was supposed to push them over the finish line. They’re trying to stay under the luxury tax, trying to stay under $200 million, even though they signed all these big contracts, and they have an old— like a medium to old team that’s— that needs to win now, but a roster that’s not really ready to support that, especially on the pitching side. They are— they’re kind of a mess. They’re kind of a mess. Two years ago, we would have been like, “They will offer Ohtani $400 million.” And now, they’re like not even in on him.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, they’re a mess, like, process-wise, right? Because, again, on paper, you look at what they have, and you say this is a team that could go all the way. But I agree that, you know, I— losing the head of your organization who had such a strong philosophy, whether or not it was all borne out on the field successfully, right? Who at least had a direction that he was committed to.
BOBBY: And that direction was paid to make fence.
ALEX: Yup. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And it worked.
ALEX: And it worked. It worked out. So it kind of remains to be seen where it goes from here. I know that the— the control of a team is kind of remaining within the— the family. But I don’t know, shell out all of your cash to get players can sometimes be a controversial opinion.
BOBBY: Most— I think most of the time can be a controversial opinion.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I— I— maybe the only player that I can remember where it’s not a controversial opinion, is everybody pretty much agrees that every team should offer 500 million for Ohtani.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It doesn’t seem like every team has, or it doesn’t seem like every team thinks it’s worth aligning the deck so that they can make a decent pitch to him.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It seems like there’s like five teams right now that feel, like, worthy of a hypothetical bet on where Ohtani might land. And those teams are like the Mets, the Dod— I said the Mets first, like they’re anywhere near the top. But it’s— really, it’s like the Dodgers, a sizable gap, and then a collection of like the Blue Jays, the Mets, the Yankees, the Red Sox will probably offer him and have a meeting with him. And may— maybe the Rangers, because they just won the World Series, and they seem to be willing to go high on payroll, and he would— I mean, he would fit anywhere, but he would fit well on that team. Am I— am I missing anyone that you think is, like, has a decent shot? Notably, him and his agent have been saying that they will ding teams who leaked that they had a meeting with him, or leak that they had a contract offer with him. And the only team that it seems like they’re sort of swirling rumors about is the Blue Jays. So does that mean that we should knock the Blue Jays out of contention?
ALEX: I don’t— I don’t know. I mean, it— it does feel a little— like these leaks are going to happen, you know? So I— I don’t know if that’s more just a way to put pressure on teams.
BOBBY: Right. Like, don’t think the terms.
ALEX: Right, exactly. Like, it’s—
BOBBY: Like the Soto extension with the Nationals where like the exact terms and years and ops outs were all leaked as soon as they pulled out of those discussions.
ALEX: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that like, you know, the— the— there’s rumors that the Cubs might be interested as well. I mean, we’re a— we’re—
BOBBY: Oh, Cubs. The— that’s a big miss by me. Yeah, he— that’s— I would say the Cubs are up there with any of those other teams besides the Dodgers.
ALEX: Yeah. And— and I will say also— I mean, we’ve— we’re already getting to the stage of rumors where teams are moving in other— you know, like the Red Sox, Rangers, and Mets, I think, are like quote-unquote, like “exploring other options” at this point, you know?
Which is—
BOBBY: Which means they all want to offer Yamamoto $200 million.
ALEX: Right, exactly. And you can say, “Hey, we made a— we made a— a run at Ohtani. You know, we did our best.” So I don’t know— it’s— it’s all kind of a black box right now, but it does seem that we might actually hear soon where he ends up potentially, which is kind of crazy to think about.
BOBBY: I think that the rest of the market is kind of waiting for him.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Especially because this is a pitching heavy— it’s— much has been discussed about how this is pitching heavy market. There’s not a lot of really impact—
ALEX: The Mets already scooped up Joey Wendle, so he’s off.
BOBBY: Right. He’s off the board.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Total— totally locked up, you know? Heyward back to the Dodgers.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: One year, 9 mil, that’s going to be a game changer. Actually, I— I love— I love [20:52]
ALEX: I— I love it, yeah.
BOBBY: I like that he’s just still getting paid like almost 10 million bucks to just, like, be a platoon guy who’s nice and fun to have around the clubhouse, and a good impact.
ALEX: Yeah. And like— and like good as a platoon guy. Like, the Dodgers—
BOBBY: Really good. Yeah, really good.
ALEX: —the Dodgers figured out actually how to make Jason Heyward work again, do what the Cubs couldn’t do.
BOBBY: They can’t figure out what to do with their shortstop position, but they can figure out how to turn guys into good platoon bets. I can’t believe that. When I tweeted about Corey Seager during the World Series, we just got so many Dodgers fans so mad.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: So mad. And I’m like, “Dude, Miguel Rojas was playing shortstop for you this year, and you wanted to win the World Series.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “Like that— that’s not a plan. You had Trea Turner for a year and a half. That’s not a plan.”
ALEX: Here— here’s the thing—
BOBBY: Trea Turner’s on the Phillies.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Now, a big rival of yours in the NL.
ALEX: The benefit about being a baseball fan is that you are not actually compelled to think about the plan. Like, you do not have to care about the process necessarily. Like, I mean, it’s interesting sometimes, but like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —I feel like it’s too easy to, like, twist yourself into pretzels and kind of say, “Oh, well, like, you know, they were saving money over here so that they could pursue this player.” And this and that. And I’m kind of like—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —once again, I— sure. Like, I understand that. And also—
BOBBY: That’s like doc review.
ALEX: Why not both, you know? Like—
BOBBY: You know, like it’s— like, let’s live with reality. Look what did they actually do.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: How did it actually turn it?
ALEX: Right. Yeah.
BOBBY: A lot of people are being like, “Well, they got Freddie Freeman.” And I’m like, “Cool. Great player.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Still would rather have a shortstop. I don’t know. It’s just me. The— the other big pitcher that was on the market, I guess Snell is probably still the most available top line starter. God, I would be miserable if my team signed Blake Snell. He’s just not a fun player to watch.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I can’t speak for whether or not he’s a fun guy to root for. Don’t really know, don’t really care. But as a pitcher, it’s not pleasant to watch him nibble, and walk guys, and spike curveballs. It’s just not my style of pitching. The other guy was Aaron Nola, who’s kind of the opposite. He’s just like, “I’m gonna pound the zone. Here’s another two-seamer.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: “Try to hit it. Sometimes people do and sometimes people don’t.” He’s going back to the Phillies for the rest of his career, for a lot of money. Good for him, good for the Phillies. That’s just going to be the same team next year. Same team.
ALEX: I mean—
BOBBY: Run it back.
ALEX: Yeah, it worked, kind of, right? Like—
BOBBY: It did. It did. I— a lot of— a lot of discussion about how Ohtani can— would— cannot go to the Phillies, because Kyle Schwarber is there, and there’d be too many DHs for next year, because Ohtani can’t pitch next— I’m like—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: “—That’s the thing preventing you from signing Shohei Ohtani—”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “—for the rest of his career?” Like, sorry, but I would DFA Kyle Schwarber to sign Shohei Ohtani. I’m like, “Is that dramatic?” Kyle Schwarber is like a one-and-a-half-win player last year.
ALEX: Yeah, I know. I mean—
BOBBY: He doesn’t provide any defensive value and he hit like 180. I mean, I love Kyle Schwarber. He’s great.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I would love to have Kyle Schwarber on my team, but not at the expense of Shohei Ohtani.
ALEX: Right, he— doesn’t he have an OPS [23:52] of like 150 points higher—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —than the batting average. So, like, I’ve— I do feel like— he’s like an—
BOBBY: Bryce Harper, Shohei Ohtani, same team.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Sold. I don’t care—
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: —who has to go—
ALEX: Absolutely.
BOBBY: —to make it happen. I don’t care. Those are like two of the 10 most talented baseball players literally ever.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Make it happen. Once again, don’t have to care about the process. I’m just like, what does it take to make this happen?
BOBBY: Middleton, the god.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That’s what it takes.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: That’s what it takes. Sell another cigarette company.
ALEX: That’s—
BOBBY: Found one and sell another one. Okay. Steve Cohen, there’s a guy who’s— who’s willing to make some stuff happen.
ALEX: He is making moves.
BOBBY: It’s really funny now in— with like six months of hindsight— more like three months of hindsight, actually, on the trade deadline that the Mets were like, “We’re not looking to compete in 2024, so that Verlander and Scherzer would waive their no trade clauses.” And they just straight up lied to them.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And I’m sure they kind of knew that they were being lied to in real time. And then the Mets go and sign the most coveted GM of the last 10 years. And they’re all in on Yamamoto for over $200 million. They’re like— they’re signing Joey Wendle. You know, they’re building out that roster.
ALEX: Yeah. Luis Severino, I kind of liked that one, honestly.
BOBBY: Oh, me too. Yeah. Me, too. What if Severino was just great?
ALEX: Well, that’s the thing, like—
BOBBY: That would really piss these fans off, I think.
ALEX: That would be kind of the best possible outcome.
BOBBY: I gotta say, though, from a pure, like, on paper perspective, it does seem like same old Mets signing a guy who the Yankees didn’t want anymore.
ALEX: Right, exactly. Who’s, like, had his battles with injury history, and you’re just kind of betting on him to make that rebound.
BOBBY: It’s not, though, because it’s like— if he’s good, he’s good. If— if not, $13 million doesn’t matter to the Mets the way that it did. They won’t— this won’t come at the expense— the problem with the old Mets is that this would have— signing Severino for 13 million would have come at the expense of signing Yamamoto.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And now, it’s just like they signed him just to scoop them up in case they don’t sign Yamamoto, but they’re still going to be fully in for him—
ALEX: Yes, exactly.
BOBBY: —at the terms that he wants. So the reason I bring up Steve Cohen, though, is because some news came up— some news came across the transom about his desired casino. Correct me if I’m wrong, the big update to this project was that he’s just going through with it. He’s just plowing ahead, despite the fact that— and this is like big New York City news. Like, this was— I first saw this in the New York Times, not like in sports websites— not like on sports websites. That he’s just going for it, building the casino without getting the approval from the state and the city, and the— the local legislature and politicians to do this. He hasn’t gotten like the proper licenses. He hasn’t gotten— like these plans for building this haven’t been approved yet, and he’s just gonna go for it, and gamble on the fact that they will give it to him because it’s such a big project.
ALEX: Right. So he came up with a statement basically announcing the project. This has kind of been in— in the works, more or less, since he bought the team. There’s this, you know, big sprawling parking lot that sits adjacent to Citi Field, and he wants to turn this into this biggest $8 billion casino entertainment sports complex. Again, just baseball teams are real estate magnates that— you know, it is what it is. So—
BOBBY: Man, do you think the Mets can outbid everyone now? Wait until those casino check start cashing.
ALEX: I know, yeah. No, see, they’re in a really interesting spot with this, because like the political support is, like, kind of there, but not all the way. I mean, the— the possibility for this sort of development is relatively new. Basically, came about from the city realizing it had a pandemic, like budget shortfall. And they were like, “Oh, this is a easy way to inject money into the economy.” So they— so they started opening up these opportunities.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And Cohen said, “Why not throw my hat into the ring? I have this— this land that is just sitting here and is not being used.” And— I don’t know. It’s— it’s kind of interesting, like— I feel like the— I— I’ve seen relatively little comprehensive coverage about this, even though I know it’s kind of been simmering for the last year. There’s divided public opinion on it in the flushing neighborhood.
BOBBY: Such a euphemism.
ALEX: He’s spending like $150,000 a month on lobbyists, you know. He’s going toe-to-toe with city council members, and threatening to withhold support for their projects, unless they support his. I— it is very, like, just local pot— like, stock market guy learns he has to like— he can’t just write the rules himself, you know? Like their actual procedures he has to go through.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: I don’t know. I’m interested to see where— how it plays out. Metropolitan Park, that’s the name of the project.
BOBBY: I— I feel, obviously, incredibly conflicted, just about Steve Cohen, in general.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It’s like real, like, movie villain behavior to just be like, “I’m going to do whatever I want. I don’t need to wait for approval. I’m this rich. I want to build a casino.” I’ve yet to hear the argument for why a casino is good for the community. It’s— it’s— it’s literally just that, like, they get, like, tax kickbacks, like they get in— injection of— of money into city budget.
ALEX: Right. [29:38] like the cash injection.
BOBBY: Like— what— like, what— what does cash injection mean to you?
ALEX: I— it’s— Steve Cohen hooks up the IV to his arm and all the cash is just directly injected.
BOBBY: But he’s not giving them money of his own.
ALEX: No, I know.
BOBBY: Like, the— the— the proposal from like a social contract perspective, which is what we’re good at talking about. The proposal is that people will go to this money, people will go to this casino, and they will spend money. And some portion of that money will be circulated into the flushing community, into the larger Queens community, because it will create jobs.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It will— it will foster— it will foster local business development. It will become somewhat of a mini-economic ecosystem of its own.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And other people will thrive off of that.
ALEX: I mean, there’s— there—
BOBBY: But is that true? Like, is any— is literally any part of that true in 2023? Is any small business going to grow because of Steve Cohen’s Casino? Or are other real estate people that he knows via his connections on Wall Street, just going to come in and get the first bite at the apple? Like, this is not—
ALEX: I mean, yes.
BOBBY: We don’t— we don’t live in that world anymore. Like, we don’t live in the world where someone starts a casino and, like, three other industries succeed off of it. If it someone starts a casino, five other industries already knew about it, and all of those people are funded by BlackRock.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Or like— or Goldman Sachs, or Bank of America, or Merrill Lynch. Like, the— these— these things are already predetermined in 2023.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, a— a lot of them, the quote-unquote, like “economic drivers” a lot— a big part of the sort of, quote-unquote, “economic driver” of a project like this is like the licensing fees. Like, basically, “Hey, you want to start a casino. You have to pay us, you know, $1.5 billion that will— that will go to”— in this case, the MTA for the state. So, like—
BOBBY: That’s going to be really well used.
ALEX: I’m sure it will go directly to the MTA.
BOBBY: It’s definitely not going to be used for the cops standing next to the turnstiles in the MTA.
ALEX: I famously trust Eric Adams.
BOBBY: Have we even determined who’s responsible for spending the MTA’s money yet?
ALEX: Whether or not the governor or the mayor?
BOBBY: For like fucking 8 years, it was like governor versus mayor. And the mayor would be like, “I want to do it.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah.
BOBBY: “I don’t want to do it.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “It’s not my problem to fix.”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: “It’s your problem to fix.”
ALEX: Right. Or be like—
BOBBY: And the governor would be like—
ALEX: “—I really— I really do want to do it, but that he’s not letting me.”
BOBBY: What— whatever is more convenient that day. Also— also, isn’t the point of the MTA fucking fee to fund the MTA? Like, isn’t $2.90 per ride enough? Like, I thought we were— we were— the whole thing in this country is like everything needs to run like a business. “There’s your business model.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: “I’m paying you to use the MTA.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Where’s that going?
ALEX: Use that money.
BOBBY: Exactly. Exactly. Why do we need a hun— why don’t we need $1.5 billion from Steve Cohen’s casino to fix the fucking R Train?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like, I don’t get that. I just don’t. Maybe I’m just not— maybe I don’t have my MBA, so I don’t understand it. Maybe I just don’t. And people listening to this being like— actually, no one listening to this is gonna say this, but a hypothetical person who could hear this segment broken out from a pod would be like, “Yeah. Well, everybody jump the turnstile, so how could they possibly pay for the updates?” No one— no one pays. I think everything— I’m— I’m gonna run for president.
ALEX: Okay. Breaking news. Wow. Dropping this at half hour on the pod.
BOBBY: On a radical platform. And then instead of everything should be profitable and be run like a business and make money, I’m running for president on the idea that everything should lose money.
ALEX: Ah, the socialism platform.
BOBBY: Yes. Every single thing in the world should be losing money for my benefit. Everything. Library should lose money. Postal service should lose money. MTA should lose.
ALEX: And I mean— yes.
BOBBY: Nobody at the top should be able to have extra money left over to put in places that it doesn’t belong.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Everything should lose money.
ALEX: And you will see like stories—
BOBBY: Tipping Pitches Media should lose money.
ALEX: Lose money. We’re doing our best. You see stories about like— there was like an experimental, like, government-run like grocery store. You know, I think— I think there was one in— in Minnesota that I saw recently.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And the news will come out that it was like, “The grocery store like wasn’t profitable in 20— you know, in 2023 or like it lost money in 2023.” That’s like—
BOBBY: No, it didn’t.
ALEX: —that’s— well, it’s— it’s also like— that’s fine.
BOBBY: It’s like probably [34:15] what people ate.
ALEX: That’s— that’s the point of it. It’s not supposed to make money. It’s to actually ensure the well-being of the citizens. Like, it’s okay.
BOBBY: We’re going real nuts and bolts.
ALEX: I’m so— I love—
BOBBY: We’re like boiling it down to the basic elements right now.
ALEX: This is what talking about casinos does to us.
BOBBY: Bro, a casino—
ALEX: Casino—
BOBBY: —is so dumb. Why doesn’t he just build an airport there? You know, that’s the easiest way to make money.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: I guess casino might be— be even easier. You don’t have to worry about—
ALEX: I feel like casino would be pretty— like that is a cash cow.
BOBBY: It’s literally just cash— cashing—
ALEX: It is— that’s— that’s all it is.
BOBBY: It is just cash in and less cash out.
ALEX: Yup.
BOBBY: Not even really like services.
ALEX: No. There’ll be a parking garage—
BOBBY: So the—
ALEX: He’s gonna build a parking garage.
BOBBY: Of course, there will be.
ALEX: Don’t worry.
BOBBY: I mean, how’s everyone from— from Long Island gonna get there? They’re certainly not going to take the train that comes directly there. Because you might get stabbed on Long Island Railroad. That’s what I hear these days. You just might get stabbed.
ALEX: Is that— is— is that the narrative?
BOBBY: Dude, dude, the narrative is out there. The narrative is out there.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: All right, next topic. Gabe Kapler is the new assistant GM of the Miami Marlins. What’s the name— pop quiz. Name the GM of the Miami Marlins.
ALEX: I don’t know. I— I can’t.
BOBBY: I don’t know his name either. He’s just got hired from the Rays.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Can you Google it for me while I talk about my feelings on Gabe Kapler? What an interesting career this guy’s having. I’m not going to make any value judgments this early on about Gabe Kapler, the front office executive, I suppose. Kapler went from a blogger/fitness guy, and like baseball guy as well. But his primary— his days were spent primarily working out and blogging about it. And he became— then he was part of the Dodgers system, and he worked his way all the way up to, like, farm director, or like director of player development, or he was in that chain of player development with the Dodgers. Decided he wanted to become a manager. Got hired by the Phillies to be the manager, was horrible. Truly a bad manager with the Phillies. Everybody hated him. So much so that he was replaced by Joe Girardi, one of the most known quantities in the sport, who everybody hated slightly less, who then was fired a year and a half later, Kapler goes to the Giants. They have one of the— honestly, truly one of the luckiest years in the history of baseball. Every single player performing to their 98th percentile outcome, including my beloved Darin Ruf. Hope he’s doing well. They have a magical year. They win like 106 games. They still— they— they win the division on the last day, and get eliminated by the Dodgers in a bloodbath of an NLDS, five games. And then over the course of the next couple years, it’s kind of revealed that he’s not that good of a manager. Or that his managerial shtick kind of only really works when he has a specific kind of roster put in front of him. He’s fired by the Giants. Immediately lands on his feet again, to be the assistant GM for the Miami Marlins, who, by the way, have been performing above expectations for years now under the guidance of Kim Ng, who I need not remind everyone listening was the first female GM in the history of the sport and got fired after bringing a team with little to no expectations and very little owner investment to the playoffs.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah. And they—
BOBBY: Was not extended.
ALEX: Right. Well, they—
BOBBY: Mutually departed.
ALEX: Right. Well, they— they came to her and said, “Hey, just so you know—”
BOBBY: “We want to hire a boss.” [38:07]
ALEX: “—we want to hire a boss [38:08] for you.” Yeah. And she was like, “I know how to do this job.”
BOBBY: And then Gabe Kapler gets hand plucked to come to that front office.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I’m just saying, a lot of really weird things going on and a strange career for this guy so far.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Everybody seems to really want him around, and this— I haven’t even mentioned the fact that he was involved, while with the Dodgers, in what seems to be— or what was alleged to be by some people within the game— maybe not covering up domestic violence, but softening the impact of players within the Dodgers system who were accused of domestic violence. And that just has never stuck on him. That’s never stuck with him throughout any of these other stops. It wasn’t pursued and he wasn’t suspended. And then he wasn’t like officially reprimanded by either law enforcement or Major League Baseball, but that— that’s like out there on him. People know this. And yet, and yet, he’s been fired several times, and just keeps laying on his feet.
ALEX: Yup.
BOBBY: I just— I— I just— I don’t know. I— I feel like I don’t have enough information on what it is about this guy that people just need to have around. We just need to keep paving pathways for him to get the jobs that he wants.
ALEX: Yeah, I’m— I— I do feel like at any given time, there are just a few, like, quote unquote, “thinkers” in the sport that every team is obsessed with, right? And Kapler is like one of those guys, you just like— you look at the resume and it’s like, “Oh, it’s all there. He’s got everything.” And then you— and then you watch him like manage a baseball game or something, and you’re like, “Oh, boy, he didn’t pick up very much at— at all those stops along the way, did he?” Peter Bendix, by the way, Peter Bendix is the president of baseball operations for the Miami Marlins. Bendix. Some— that sounds like a— a stock that went belly up during, like, dot-com bubble.
BOBBY: They sold belts. [40:04] Do— do you think the Marlins are gonna become the Rays? Because they think they’re gonna become the Rays.
ALEX: They do think that, yeah. I— I— I don’t know. Also, what does that— what does that mean? Like, just a supposedly well-oiled, like, trimmed machine that has trouble finding sustained success especially in the playoffs? Like—
BOBBY: Marlins 2, Rays 0. In terms of World Series banners.
ALEX: I just— again, it’s like there are— there are it like— they’re the sort of like it managers, you know, and then the it teams. And the Marlins are like, “Well, let’s get this guy who the baseball world has been obsessed with.”
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: “And then let’s get the guy who comes from the— the sexiest, smartest front office.”
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: “And call it a day. If we just get all the smart people in the room, they’ll figure it out, right?”
BOBBY: I think that Kapler— here’s my take on Gabe. My take— my take on Gabe.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: The title of my column. I just think that there’s a real lane for a guy within the baseball world who brands himself as like a free thinker. He comes from a non-traditional way to become a manager or of— or be part of a front office. He has a very self-described intellectual, non-traditional way of thinking about the game. But that pathway is only clear for a person who still kind of presents in similar ways to all the other people, so he doesn’t make them feel uncomfortable. So he’s like, “I’m pushing the boundaries. I’m on the vanguard of some of these things. I’m incorporating analytics. I’m incorporating these different player development tactics. I care a lot about, like, the physical development that goes into making a baseball player good. I’m willing to do stuff that is different. However, I’m also, like, just a guy that you can understand at my core, you know?” And I feel like there’s no, like, third rail people in baseball right now. There’s either, like, the traditional person that has like a really known quantity, who’s like a baseball— capital B, Baseball guy. Like, I mean, guess— well, maybe like Dombroski, or like Dana Brown, or like a couple of these other people who have like been around the game and are, like, executing based on the dominant philosophy. And then there’s like the alternative to that person, who is like David Stearns, who is like Theo Epstein, who is like Peter Bendix, who all these people who are like, “Why I understand that and I incorporate that into my very analytically forward version of the game.” And Kap— Kapler is closer to that. And then there’s no other, like, third rail person who is like, “I don’t really care about those two pathways. I’m charting my own course, and I come at this from a different background. And I’m probably more diverse than that crop of those first two groups of people, who either played professional baseball or went to Harvard.” And it’s kind of really alarming that we’re not developing leaders of the game from any other— we’re not developing leaders of the game from any other avenue of life. Because as it stands right now, people just keep getting fired and rehired. Like— and it’s— that’s true with managers, too. Like, Mike Shildt was reviled by the entire baseball community two years ago, and now he gets hired by the Padres, and Jeff Passan is writing articles about how beloved he is. I’m like, what are we talking about? Everybody hates this guy. The same people keep getting rehired. Bob Melvin had four different jobs in the—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —last three years, and everybody still loves him. I’m just like, there’s no room for anything else. If the people that keep getting fired at every— at every stop are still somehow like beloved, great candidates for the next place, it’s just— this is a zero-sum game. There are only so many positions. This just doesn’t make sense to me.
ALEX: I— I think, frankly, that, like, much of Kapler’s— I think, frankly, that much of the reason that Kapler has stuck around so long is that you tend to get ahead in life by being like a fit, white guy with, like, a strong jawline. Like, that really helps you get places. That’s— that seems— I mean, they— the Marlins already have that in their manager in Skip Schumaker.
BOBBY: Right. Who’s— who was a professional baseball player.
ALEX: Who— who was a professional baseball player, manager of the year, like actually has seen success in that role. And then you just bring in Kapler, double down on that philosophy, you know?
BOBBY: I don’t know. I mean, Kapler played in the majors, too. So, like, he is sort of blending these two worlds in a way that some of these guys are. Like, some of these guys who, more often managers now, are kind of blending these two worlds than front office people, but still, it seems like we’re in a real stale time for baseball hiring. It’s a lot of just the same people, same names getting floated around, same everything. And I don’t— I don’t see many teams looking for what the next place to develop baseball evaluator talent is. There— 20 years ago, there were teams who were, like, looking into the analytics community, looking into people who were— who could do advanced mathematics, looking into people who didn’t come from a baseball background, but could look at large datasets. And no— I mean, I don’t— no one else is— no one’s doing that right now. And it’s— it’s— it wouldn’t bother me— it obviously bothers me because most of those people are white guys still. The reason that it bothers me so much on like an existential level is that it— it plays out in how the game is actually run, too. Like, it plays out in what players teams go after. It plays out in how people’s careers unfold. It— it plays out in how certain types of players are drafted and developed, and I think that it’s mostly in negative ways now, at this point. Like, the dominant philosophy for building and developing a baseball player is just being passed around from organization to organization by the same 38 guys. And now, once again, they’re all back to being all guys. This is weird.
ALEX: Yeah. I— I— I’ll— I’ll note that the Pirates hired Sarah Gillis to be their assistant GM. She had been in the Astro— she had been the Astros director of research and development since 2019. So she had kind of long been considered a sort of “rising star”, quote-unquote, in the game and will be working under the tutelage of— of Ben Cherington. But, again, it’s like there are these vary— but, again, it’s like, you know, we— we shouldn’t necessarily have to be like coming back to, “All right. Well, here’s— here’s the—here’s the storyline for this year that we can all feel excited about, and gloss over the fact that Gabe Kapler is just getting handed jobs.”
BOBBY: Who’s managing the Giants? Bob Melvin.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: I literally forgot he’s going to the [47:15]
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: Like, this— this is perfect. Remember, when they were like, ‘We’re going to interview Alyssa Nakken.”
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: “But we’re not going to hire her.”
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Like, what— all right.
ALEX: Right. At least you have a seat at the table, you know?
BOBBY: I—
ALEX: At least you’re in consideration.
BOBBY: —feel as though we need to move on.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I feel like I’m just repeating myself at this point. Let’s do some mailbag questions. But before we do, I have a question for you.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Is Joe West gonna get into the Hall of Fame? And does his music help or hurt his case?
ALEX: Hmm. Hmm. Which Hall of Fame? The Country Hall of Fame?”
BOBBY: The Nashville Country Music Hall of Fame.
ALEX: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think that his music does help his case there. I—
BOBBY: You don’t actually have to answer that.
ALEX: I— yeah. I don’t— I don’t— I don’t even know how umpires are entered into the Hall of Fame.
BOBBY: It’s like by the committee for modern baseball or whatever. You know— you know how it is. The writers do not vote on umpires. The writers vote on players only.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Players who are eligible within their 10-year window only.
ALEX: The Hall of Fame is like a funny thing.
BOBBY: And then the committee is— elect people who are either managers, or GMs, or owners, or umpires, or— whatever. Or players who are past that 10-year window.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It’s the most Byzantine structure that’s ever been made. We’re gonna answer some actual questions. But before we do, apparently, a few weeks ago on the pod— or, actually, I guess a couple of months ago now on the pod, I was— we were talking about yoga, cycling, running, and I was saying how much I hated running. And I put a challenge out to the Tipping Pitches listeners, if you like running, call and tell me why, because I don’t get it. It was a very, like, call and response direct ask to our listeners. And you know what? More people called about this—
ALEX: People came through.
BOBBY: —than basically any other topic besides Alex’s new team pod. So I’m just gonna play a little montage of all of the people who called in about running because we don’t have time to play every single voicemail.
SPEAKER 3: All right, boys. I’ve got some running thoughts. Bobby, you love the Mission: Impossible films, where Tom Cruise runs. And those are some of the best scenes— best action scenes ever. And so when I’m running, I listened to the Mission: Impossible score, and it’s the coolest fucking thing ever.
SPEAKER 4: Hey, Alex and Bobby, this is Kat, first time, longtime. So I’m— I’m calling in because I enjoy running. And I’ve been thinking literally all week about why I enjoy running, and I could say something privy like, “Oh, it gets me out there early in the morning, and the sunrise is so beautiful, and I love being outside with other people. I live in a good running town, blah, blah, blah.” But really, I do it to feel superior to other people, and so that I can justify eating whatever I want.
SPEAKER 5: Hey, Alex and Bobby. This is Jack, I sincerely apologize for my monotone voice. But you told me to call if I enjoy running and listening to podcasts, and I do both those things. I love running for a plethora of reasons. One is it’s the easiest way to feel accomplished for the day. I can go run 30 minutes, and I don’t have to do— anything to do the entire rest of the day. And I’ve done something good.
SPEAKER 6: Alex and Bobby, I’m calling— longtime listener, first-time caller. I am calling in response to your query about runners running. I run avidly, have done it for the past 20 years. And it’s a great way to just kind of zone out, and do a thing over and over again. Kind of like what Alex was saying about cycling. You just kind of like get into the zone. You can just like listen to loud music, take out all the anger and frustration. And also, it just makes you feel great.
SPEAKER 7: Bobby and Alex, hello. This is John from beautiful Reno, Nevada. Running is a great escape from the mundanity or insanity of your every day. Much of the way that I know Bob— Bobby said baseball is, because how are you going to think about your crushing student debt when you’re counting five miles out and you’re sweating. And the only thing you can think about is, you know, one foot in front of the other.
SPEAKER 8: Hi, Alex and Bobby. This is Jonathan, a runner from Chicago. And I would say running is definitely an acquired taste. I didn’t really like it until all the gyms closed for COVID, and I had to find some way to do exercise. But what I still like about running is that you can do it anywhere and it’s outdoors. And the fact that it’s like easy to sign up for races. So you have like some type of external motivation to [51:59] which is different than like if you’re trying to [52:02] and deadlifting in a gym. Just a different vibe.
SPEAKER 9: So it’s— hope you’re both doing well. I’m calling in a week late on the running prompt to keep your voicemail box alive. I am a— I’m an Oakland resident, Alex’s home turf. And I’m also a union organizer, which means that I spend all of every day talking with people, most of whom are in a pretty foul mood about something or another that is not going to like [52:38] and so my pitch on running is that— especially, I mentioned I’m in Oakland for a reason, because the East Bay in California is home to some pretty kick-ass trail running opportunities. So the sick thing for me about running, the one reason, I have several, but I can go up into those hills, Oakland, Berkeley, and Moraga and not see a single person for an hour at a time, if I get out there on like a weekday morning. So I would challenge the two of you as New York residents to think about the last time that you went that long, well, you know, not in your own home, but out in nature without seeing a bunch of people at once.
SPEAKER 10: Hey, Tipping Pitches. This is Steve in the Twin Cities, longtime listener, first-time caller, just doing my part to keep that Google voice mailbox open. What I love about running and why I got into it after being a lifelong [53:35] runner is a really efficient way to get a workout. Like, it feels like biking, you have to go for quite a while. You got to get changed and put on all the stuff or whatever. Running, you just like throw on some [53:45] and go. And that’s how I got into it. Anyway, thanks. Bye.
ALEX: It was pretty sick. It was pretty funny going back and— and looking at the transcript of the episode and seeing that it was a very direct— direct ask. If you like running, call this number, and share one thought about the World Series and one thought about running.
BOBBY: Right. So that’s why there’s all these World Series—
ALEX: Like, it’s all— it was kind of just thrown in there.
BOBBY: I just— I’m always amazed, you know? Runners stand strong—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —with each other, in all facets of life. One time at my job, someone did a hottest take episode about how running is a scam, and that you can get all of the same health benefits from walking that same distance. And, yes, it will take you a little bit longer, but you’re not getting any of the health drawbacks in terms of wear and tear on your joints and ligaments and stuff that you do get from running. And I expressed support for this hottest take. And The— The Ringer runners were at my throat. They’re like, “You’re fucking wrong.” I just did not know that so many people were like, “Running is good and fun, and I like it.”
ALEX: Well— and it’s like—
BOBBY: Everybody who is running, I feel like you’re doing it as a bit.
ALEX: But that’s the thing, it’s like if you criticize running, they— they start coming out of the woodwork, you know? It’s like you— you can’t even— you can’t even throw shade—
BOBBY: Yeah. Be careful what you say at the Thanksgiving dinner table about running. You don’t know which one of your relatives might be running, and they’re fucking tired.
ALEX: Seriously. Like, I almost feel like we— you know, we should stick to sports here. I don’t want to wade into politics.
BOBBY: Batting Around co-host, Lauren Walker, put on some quotes we did someone earlier this morning about how— it was just a— a truly, weird blue check brain kind of opinion about how we need to make playful exercise more accessible or something like that. Just very hard to parse what they meant. But they were just like, “We want, you know, climbing jungle gyms for adults. And we want to play more games and play tag as adults. And that would be beneficial for you.” But, currently, the way that fitness is set up is too intimidating and not fun for people. And— and Lauren did a very— did a very effective— a takedown of this in— in the form of a quote tweet, which is that— that’s just a dumb opinion, and that is accessible if you really want to do it. And also, a lot of people do find other forms of exercise fun.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Reading the replies where people were like, “What— what’s fun about lifting weights? And why do you do it?” I was just sitting there, just being like, “I don’t know. It’s a fascinating question.”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I think it is fun, though. I think lifting weights is way more fun than running. Because, like, when you’re lifting weights, you’re like, “Oh, I picked this thing up that’s heavy, and it’s getting easier.” And when you’re running, you’re like, “This sucks. I’m in pain. I’m sweating.”
ALEX: You just keep running. Like, every step is slightly worse.
BOBBY: Exactly. I just don’t— I don’t get— still after all these voicemails, I’m not convinced. The only— the— the main thing that I could be convinced by— about when it comes to running is like you get to see things, you get to see more of your city. If— if I was a runner, objectively, I would have seen more of South Brooklyn by now.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: But like for what? Here’s another corner with a bodega and a supermarket.
ALEX: I mean, I’ll— I’ll tell you what, I think the only logical response here is for 10 more listeners to call in and make an even more impassioned case as to—
BOBBY: Like, it feels good at the end.
ALEX: —the benefits of running.
BOBBY: I’m like, “You and I are different if you think that it feels good at the end of running.”
ALEX: Yeah, I don’t think—
BOBBY: Boring question, when was the last time you ran?
ALEX: Like, purely for exercise, not because I was like trying to catch a subway?
BOBBY: No, either. You break into a run to catch the subway?
ALEX: No, I’m—
BOBBY: Have some self-respect. I mean, like, when was the last time you moved faster than your walking pace for longer than a minute?
ALEX: You— you— I’m trusting you to cut out all the dead air while I sit here and try and think back.
BOBBY: I want a date.
ALEX: I, like, went for a run or two when— when the pandemic was in really full swing, you know, back in like 2021. So it’s been a couple of years.
BOBBY: How did that go for you?
ALEX: It was fine.
BOBBY: What shoes did you wear?
ALEX: That’s a really good question.
BOBBY: Maybe not a good question for the purposes of a podcast, but like, I’m just so curious as to how you pulled that off. Like—
ALEX: I— I have some like New Balance shoes that I could— that, you know, work to get the job done.
BOBBY: I’m just picturing you wearing like black jeans and Vans.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And like a jacket, like running down the street.
ALEX: Right. I don’t actually change my— you’re supposed to wear something different when you run.
BOBBY: I think it’s nice that people have things that they like.
ALEX: I agree.
BOBBY: Honestly, some people look good running. Some people look like it’s effortless and they’re having a good time. Some people look— even look good, like, after they run.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And to those people, I say, “You and I are different.”
ALEX: Yup.
BOBBY: Because it’s— it’s never going to be like that for me. I’m going to be in pain the whole time and you’re going to know.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You’re gonna know, and that’s why I don’t do it. Okay. Let’s go to another voicemail.
SPEAKER 11: Hey, Bobby. Hey, Alex. This is Roman. I have a hypothetical question for you guys to waste time on. If you were a matchmaker for Taylor Swift, who— which MLB baseball player would you match her up with?
BOBBY: We’ve definitely been asked this before, but it’s always good to check back in. Especially in light of the fact that she’s dating a very notable NFL player.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Roman, thank you for calling. It’s nice to hear you— nice to hear your voice. This is— for context, this is one of my lifelong best friends. Matchmaker for Taylor Swift. I’m—
ALEX: This is really testing my knowledge of just how many baseball players I can actually name off the top of my head.
BOBBY: Is it too obvious to say Ohtani?
ALEX: You think she would date Shohei Ohtani? Like, I feel like she wouldn’t necessarily want to date someone who’s—
BOBBY: Who doesn’t speak English?
[laughter]
ALEX: I was gonna say whose star might actually eclipse hers in some circles, but—
BOBBY: However, though, I feel like she is a bigger star in the United States.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: He’s a bigger star in Asia.
ALEX: Correct.
BOBBY: It’s like a toss-up for the rest of the world. Honestly, she’s probably bigger—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —in, like, Europe and South America.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So that’s like world domination level. If she dates Ohtani, and she goes— she starts playing tours in Asia.
ALEX: That might be too powerful.
BOBBY: We’re— we’re talking like she could be president. Do you think she would ever be president? Do you think she—she would ever run for president? I don’t think so.
ALEX: I— no. I don’t think she has any interest in that.
BOBBY: All right. Who else?
ALEX: I— the thing is like, I feel like she would date someone—
BOBBY: I have a good answer.
ALEX: —like Travis Kelce, who is boring, right? So, like, I’m thinking around—
BOBBY: I don’t think Kelsey is boring. I think he’s dumb.
ALEX: Sure. Yes. I think he is—
BOBBY: I don’t even think his reputation in the NFL world is that he’s boring. I think his reputation is that he’s a little bit of like a goofball, like fun personality. Like, almost like a— like WWE kind of goofiness.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Theatrical approach to the game.
ALEX: Sure.
BOBBY: I think she would date— she should date— I think she should date Max Fried.
ALEX: Hmm. Okay.
BOBBY: Because I think he has the look—
ALEX: Right—
BOBBY: —of a guy that she would date.
ALEX: He does have a little bit of like a Joe Alwyn like—
BOBBY: Right. Like a withering, little, white guy with like—
ALEX: Like a little sad boy.
BOBBY: —wispy facial hair.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I think he has the look. I don’t know if he has the personality for it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I think he might be too normal and too boring like you’re describing.
ALEX: I mean, I think most baseball players fit that description.
BOBBY: But not all. Here’s a question, has Taylor Swift ever dated someone who’s not white?
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Because that basically eliminates like half of baseball players.
ALEX: Right. Yeah. I’m thinking like— like Tyler Glasnow maybe.
BOBBY: Yeah, but is he interesting?
ALEX: No, but this is the problem we run into with baseball.
BOBBY: We can do better than this, though. We could find an interesting baseball player.
ALEX: Giolito?
BOBBY: I guess.
ALEX: I feel like— like he’s—
BOBBY: I feel like Giolito doesn’t like her.
ALEX: I mean—
BOBBY: We’re— we’re playing matchmaker, you know?
ALEX: Yes. We have to take— take both—
BOBBY: And in a matchmaker traditional sense, we have to find someone who will make both of them happy. To be clear, I’m not trying to break up her and Travis. I think they’re doing great.
ALEX: So then are we starting from a point of, like, baseball players who have expressed their love for Taylor Swift or like enjoyment of her music?
BOBBY: What about Alec Bohm?
ALEX: Another wispy, sad boy.
BOBBY: Right. Just getting emotional about the fact that he’s playing bad.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But he kind of has the like— like strong energy. He’s tall. He’s got long hair. It seems like intention—
ALEX: I feel like— isn’t he kind of like young for her?
BOBBY: That’s a great point. How old is he?
ALEX: And he’s what?
BOBBY: He’s like 26.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well, I guess he’s kind of young for her.
ALEX: And she’s like 31.
BOBBY: Scherzer. Powerful, powerful couple. I know Scherzer is married and he has like four kids, but—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Honestly, like, if Verlander wasn’t so famously married to Kate Upton—
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: —he would be like a good option.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Because he’s, like, legitimately famous. And if you— I could see a world in which he could handle that level of, like, outside fame and celebrity that’s not associated with baseball necessarily, because he’s already doing it.
ALEX: Right. Exactly.
BOBBY: But that’s a boring answer. I don’t find him really that compelling as a person. I think it would be really funny if she dated Gerrit Cole.
ALEX: Oh, Jesus Christ. That’s kind of terrifying to think about.
BOBBY: No, it’s not. It’s great to think about.
ALEX: What would they talk about?
BOBBY: Wine.
ALEX: Wine?
BOBBY: Yeah. Cool is a huge wine guy. Huge wine guy.
ALEX: All right.
BOBBY: Like, he could have been at Somali [1:04:12] at that restaurant that we went to on Friday night.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: And Taylor Swift loves her wine, too. You know, she’s putting in lyrics all the time. Slipping away like a bottle of wine.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. I do feel like there are some good choices in the— in the Braves, like, rotation.
BOBBY: That makes me sad.
ALEX: Unfortunately.
BOBBY: Strider is too short for her. I don’t think she would ever date someone shorter than her, because I think that would invite just awful discourse.
ALEX: Yeah. How— how tall was Owen?
BOBBY: Pretty tall.
ALEX: Pretty tall. Yeah.
BOBBY: Healy was shorter than her, though.
ALEX: True.
BOBBY: That one was a [1:04:45]
ALEX: That was— that was— that was not real also.
BOBBY: I agree.
ALEX: Now, there’s Travis Kelce.
BOBBY: Do you still think that— Alex, they kissed, though.
ALEX: I—
BOBBY: Coming off the stage. What if they get married? Like, what if this pod comes out and they get married?
ALEX: They are not gonna get married.
BOBBY: Harper is a great answer for her. That would be so fun for me.
ALEX: I— I would get a lot of enjoyment out of that.
BOBBY: Adding Taylor Swift to whatever is going on in Philadelphia is a risk I’m willing to take. It’s a risk I’m willing to take for the content.
ALEX: Yeah, that would— just imagine the pandering those— the duo would be able to do.
BOBBY: Well, that’s what I’m saying. Game recognize game.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I feel like they— like, what is the phrase? Iron sharpens iron? Like, they would both get better.
ALEX: Yeah. Taylor said, “Go, birds.”
BOBBY: The only thing that’s sharp enough to cut a diamond is another diamond.
ALEX: Sure.
BOBBY: Taylor Swift did say “Go, birds.”
ALEX: I know, she did.
BOBBY: The Eagles T-shirt—
ALEX: Well—
BOBBY: —hanging on the door.
ALEX: Which— which Eagles?
BOBBY: I think she was talking about the Philadelphia Eagles.
ALEX: The team— yeah. I think so, too.
BOBBY: Yeah. I think that was actually confirmed at the Philadelphia shows.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Which we were not at, and we should have been at.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: [1:06:03] schedule— scheduling conflicts. At the link right next to your beloved X Xfinity Live.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: All right, next question. This comes from Nick. Which player not named Pete Alonso would walk up— is most likely to walk up to a Pool— Pool Kids song? I mean, it’s the aforementioned Spencer Strider, right?
ALEX: I— I think so. I don’t— how many like baseball players do we know— do we have, like, recorded, like, verification of their, like, interest in indie music?
BOBBY: Two.
ALEX: Right. Like, I— I would pick— I would pick Sean Doolittle.
BOBBY: One that was on [1:06:38]
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well, so we heard from Trevor May a couple weeks ago that he is a pop punk guy.
ALEX: Right. So basically we—
BOBBY: But then we asked him, like what’s your pop punk lane? And he was kind of just like— he didn’t— I don’t— didn’t really find that answer all that satisfactory.
ALEX: Yeah, he— I mean, he had all the—
BOBBY: I agree that— like I— I definitely believe that he was like, “I— I love the vibe of the pop punk.” But I don’t— I don’t know that he was like, “I’m gonna be up on the current scene.”
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Statistically speaking, there has to be some— some dudes out there, or like I’m firing up like new— the trouble is that, like, when it comes to walk-up songs, I don’t know if anybody would be bold enough to choose that, because it has to be like somewhat of a crowd
pleaser.
ALEX: Yes. Right. I think we’re—
BOBBY: And the Pool Kids are like— they’re not like pop punky. They’re like— like, how many baseball players are reasonably like— I’m pushing outside of the bounds of pop punk into, like, Midwestern emo, into like math rock-y stuff. Like, they’re too busy, like, in the batting cages for this.
ALEX: Yeah, yeah. Max Muncy. Like, now, I’m just like naming—
BOBBY: He’s like— he’s like a country guy.
ALEX: Hmm. That’s— see, again, I’m— this is where we need to go back and— and look at like every player’s walk-up song because you might be able to define sort of a genre that the players, you know, gravitating towards.
BOBBY: Yeah. It’s just really funny to me that Pete Alonso, like, is the answer.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, does that make—
BOBBY: I don’t know I would have ever predicted that, though. So maybe we’re just missing obvious ones.
ALEX: Right. I know. I mean, does that make one of the other Mets players a— a reasonable candidate if— if Pete’s bumping it in the locker room and— and Jeff McNeil?
BOBBY: I just don’t think that Pete is bumping Pool Kids in the locker room.
ALEX: I really don’t know. I—
BOBBY: I don’t think like you walk into the Mets lot— locker room and, like, Conscious Uncoupling is playing.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But, honestly, I— I think that baseball players could get really into Pool Kids. In the same way that, like, I’m sure there are a ton of baseball players who like— this is not— I don’t mean to say that Pool Kids is in the lineage of these bands.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Let me be clear. But I think there are probably a lot of baseball players who are of the age where, like, grunge metal, nu metal that was, like, what they were into.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: In, like, middle school in high school. And so this is a more refined better version of much of what came out of nu metal. And that— I mean, I— I like some nu metal. You know, I love Linkin Park. I love System of a Down. And I think that some baseball players would be like, “Oh, I remember— I remember these songs.”
ALEX: That Fred Durst guy.
BOBBY: Please leave Fred Durst out of this. I’d be— they’d be like, “I remember the songs. This is cool.” This seems like a modern updated version of that, with a bunch of other genres mixed in, of course.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I don’t think baseball players would care about— they’d be like, “Does this bump?”
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And objectively, that’s— that physics baby, [1:09:37] it does bump.
ALEX: I think like a guy like Castellanos might— might vibe with it. Like, I— again, I just— I just— because—
BOBBY: I think we’re giving testing on us too much credit. I’m just gonna say that in a general prospective.
ALEX: I mean, I mean— yeah, sure. But— but I feel like the kind of thing where he would come into it with no preconceived notions, like, you know, no thoughts whatsoever.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: So, like, he can just listen uninhibited, right? Like, there’s—
BOBBY: Jimmy Butler knowing who Hot Mulligan is, has thrown— it’s like when your compass loses its magnetization—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —like I don’t know what’s real anymore.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t know which way is north.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: The fact that he, like, legitimately knows like current music—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —in this genre is mind-blowing to me.
ALEX: It really is.
BOBBY: Did we give an answer?
ALEX: We gave a— a few in most— where I think we rejected ourselves.
BOBBY: The real answer is like— it’s like some reliever.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Some— some rando reliever out there is like, “I— I fucking love Pool Kids,” like, we will find them.
ALEX: We will find them.
BOBBY: Nick, I promise.
ALEX: If you are that reliever [1:10:38]
BOBBY: Call in 785-422-5881 is the number for our voicemail. Next question, Nick again. Let’s say you wanted to ensure Shohei Ohtani would not sign for your favorite team, which restaurant location, landmark, monument, et cetera in your team city would you bring him to in order to obliterate any and all desire for him to play there? Really funny question. Hard for you.
ALEX: Right. I think I would bring him to the Oakland Coliseum. And that’s it.
BOBBY: Where would you bring him to in Vegas?
ALEX: God. I— I don’t know, the— the Sphere? No. Probably— probably an F1 race.
BOBBY: No, that’d be cool, though. Would it?
ALEX: I think the prevailing wisdom on the F1 Las Vegas race is that it was kind of a shitshow, wasn’t it?
BOBBY: Just gonna work some stuff out.
ALEX: Yeah. I guess what you’d have to do is—
BOBBY: Bring him to a Raiders game.
ALEX: Yeah, take him to a Raiders game. Yeah. Or just have him live in Las Vegas while they’re constructing the F1 Race.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I feel like that’s maybe the more impactful thing.
BOBBY: Where would I bring him to in New York to make him not want to sign here? The fucking 7 Line Army bleachers.
ALEX: Yes. That’s right.
BOBBY: Penn Station after a Rangers game.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. The Long Island Railroad.
BOBBY: I don’t think I could do better than either of those, honestly. Okay, next question. Next question comes from Matthew. “I’m a recent listener to your podcast and I was wondering how you guys would react if Ohtani joined the Braves. I understand that both of you root for NL East teams.” Questionable whether both of us root for NL East teams.
ALEX: I lo— I love that this is slowly just being adopted into my identity.
BOBBY: I just— two words, prove it. “And have many problems with the Braves organization. Some may say you guys despise them. I completely get why you have grievances with the Braves ownership tactics and fans, but would you guys still root for Ohtani even if he was a Brave? Ohtani seems like such a nice guy, and it would be nice for him to win. I’m a Pirates fan, so I have long given up hope for my team to get Ohtani.” This came— John Heyman— or no. Jon Morosi. Sorry, a different John. Wrote an article— insinuated on MLB Network that Ohtani would be intrigued by the Braves. Whatever the fuck that means. You could just say. This— I filed— filed this under You Can Say Anything These Days.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: But that’s where this question was rooted in. Your thoughts, would you root for Shohei Ohtani if he was on the Braves?
ALEX: I mean, yes.
BOBBY: I wouldn’t.
ALEX: Really?
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: Would you— you not— I mean— I mean, what do you define as like root for? Like, I would still want him to be successful.
BOBBY: I wouldn’t.
ALEX: I mean, now— now is that— that—
BOBBY: Like, individually, you mean?
ALEX: Like— yes. I mean, like, I would not— I would not then be, like, start rooting for the Braves, you know? Just as I was not necessarily rooting for the Angels. I mean, I was rooting for
Ohtani to, like, just be that dude whenever he stepped on the field.
BOBBY: I think the difference is that when people were, quote-unquote, “rooting for the angels,” it was just because they wanted them to make the playoffs and see Ohtani in more places.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t think you really have to worry about that with the Braves.
ALEX: No. But I still like—
BOBBY: So then you— you run the risk of him being the thing that pushes the Braves over the top, and therefore, you can’t root for him. Like, you put him on that team, and suddenly, it’s like a Kevin Durant on the Warriors situation. And then it’s like not only do people already dislike the Warriors for their success and— because Joe Lacob is an asshole, and because of Draymond, honestly.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: But then also, you’ve added Kevin Durant, which makes the competition a bit less fun, and makes it harder to root for Kevin Durant, a guy who— neutral fans liked to root for before. So it’s a lose, lose, lose.
ALEX: I mean, it would be really interesting to see Ohtani in a place where he kind of does become not a villain of sorts, but like the face of the team that is maybe the— the— you know, the most kind of rooted against in the last few years, outside of the Astros maybe.
BOBBY: Yeah. But— but like the way that the organization conducts themselves and the way that that fan base is, they wouldn’t just be like now, Ohtani is the guy. He’s not like the face of the franchise anymore. They’d be like, “Well, like Chipper Jones is still the face of the franchise, you know? Like, Ohtani is just here to play ball.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And we can admire that he’s playing ball, but don’t get bigger than the organization.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It would be so, so annoying. Like, I— I actually, legitimately think I would have him on any other team before the Braves, like by a mile.
ALEX: Oh, I mean, yeah. Sure.
BOBBY: Because if he was on the Yankees, it would actually be fun to root against him. But if he’s on the Braves, it wouldn’t be fun to root against him. It would be miserable for everybody except the Braves fans.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Who are the worst fan base.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: That sucks.
ALEX: I mean, yes, but also like I am— still enjoy Shohei Ohtani. Like, I would— I think I would not—
BOBBY: Yes, but I enjoy Ronald Acuña, Jr. and I— I don’t root for him. I like it when he strikes out.
ALEX: See, you and I are just different in that way.
BOBBY: You’re just— you’re not a hater.
ALEX: I’m not a— I’m not a born hater.
BOBBY: And once again—
ALEX: Again, which is— which is why—
BOBBY: —which is why you’re not a Phillies fan.
ALEX: Right, right. Exactly.
BOBBY: I— I— it would actually be— I would have to— I— I don’t know how I would feel—
ALEX: I mean—
BOBBY: —until I experienced it. Like, watching him take at an at-bat.
ALEX: Yeah, it would be a real task, right? They’ve already have a real, like, likable roster of guys who I would like to have on my team, both from a personality perspective and a talent perspective, but I don’t know, man. I— it would be hard for me to, like, root against the greatest player on the planet. Like, the— like the most talented player I’ve ever seen walk on the field.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah. You’re— you’re fine with it. That’s good.
BOBBY: I could do it. I could do it. I could do it.
ALEX: It makes for more interesting conversations.
BOBBY: I’ve never, like, softened on a Brave. It’s like overtime.
ALEX: Just last— just last week you were talking about watching John Smoltz— going back watching John Smoltz highlights. You were like, “Hey, man, this guy’s pretty— pretty fucking good.”
BOBBY: Yeah, But I wasn’t even alive during that. Like, I’m not softening on it. That’s just history.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: That’s like me watching Napoleon, the movie. Like, “Hey, this guy, he pulled some shit out of his bag.”
ALEX: He— he was— he was going in.
BOBBY: Fucking Austerlitz. Like, do you see this shit? David asks, “You’re on the hiring committee of a team looking for a new manager. What questions do you ask during interviews to make sure they would vibe with your club?”
ALEX: Have you heard of the band Pool Kids?
BOBBY: Are you willing to deal with Steve Cohen?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Would be my first question.
ALEX: Yeah. What are your thoughts on casinos? Do you have a history of covering up human rights abuses under your belt?
BOBBY: Who’s— is this for the A’s? For the Mets?
ALEX: Oh, we’re just— we’re just like broadly saying how we would make sure that they would vibe, right?
BOBBY: Oh, so you don’t— so you don’t want a manager who has a history of covering human rights abuses?
ALEX: Correct.
BOBBY: This is the hypothetical—
ALEX: I— or I guess maybe I do, depending on the team.
BOBBY: This is hypothetical, that Tipping Pitches own the team.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I guess my real answer to this is I would try to ask whether or not they’re the type of person who sticks with what got them there? Or is willing to adapt if given proper evidence as to why? Because you can have a pretty honest debate as to what— like within sports, which of those philosophies works better. But I’m in this— I’m, like, definitively in the second camp. I’m like, throw away what worked three months ago if you have to.
ALEX: Adapt or die, baby.
BOBBY: Pretty much. Yeah. And I think that baseball is a sport in particular, and honestly, basketball on offense are two sports that I watched this philosophy unfold a lot. And it kind of sometimes comes down on one side and come— sometimes comes down on the other side. I feel like this— the people who are like adapt or die, more like myself, sometimes underrate how hard it is to change on the fly, and they get themselves in trouble that way. And the people who don’t adapt, sometimes underrate how predictable they are. And that’s an interesting conundrum. But for me, personally, I would want a manager who is willing and able to make a case for why we should be changing things in real time as they need to be, trying new shit. And most of the managers that I’ve seen who frustrate their fan bases the most are just making the same mistake over and over again. And then they get asked as to why, and they say something, like, you know, dance with the one who brought you here or something like— some dumb shit like that.
ALEX: So you wanted to disruptor? Like a Gabe Kapler type?
BOBBY: I’m looking for more of a Bob Melvin type. No, but it’s not even like new school versus old school, because I think that, like Bochy is a perfect example of like adapt or die.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: He’s like fucking— I was using setup [1:20:11] all regular season. Why would I do that in the World Series when Madison Bumgarner can go?” And— and a lot of managers wouldn’t do that. A lot of managers will just go to the seventh inning guy, the eighth inning guy, and then the ninth inning guy.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Because they’ve seen it work before, and they have— they can have a better explanation as to why they made that decision than if they bring in Madison Bumgarner and he sucks, or he hurts himself, or— or whatever. And I think that it takes a certain level of fearlessness. I think it— it takes a certain level of believing in yourself to make that type of decision work. And, for me, I think the best managers do that. It doesn’t— doesn’t have to be old school versus new school. I think that Dusty is like the worst manager at that, and I think he held the Astros back for the last three years, even though they did win one World Series. Also, like I don’t really think Dusty was really managing that team for what it’s worth. I think it’s like a lot of decisions from the bench coaches.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah,
BOBBY: Dusty was there for the vibes.
ALEX: I think I’d asked like, what is your podcast rotation look like, you know?
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: I think you can tell a lot about someone based on that. Like, are you— are you just like, “Eh, I just do Joe Rogan, because I think his guests have some interesting things to say.” Do you— do you listen to The Daily every morning when you wake up? Are you more of a— a serialized listener? You like— the— the stories, are you a True Crime guy?
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: I just think it sets the tone a little bit. And also managers don’t do very much anyway.
BOBBY: I think—
ALEX: Like, it doesn’t really matter.
BOBBY: Yeah. Great— great call. I think that a prerequisite to get hired as a baseball manager should be you listen to Tipping Pitches.
ALEX: I think so, too.
BOBBY: Okay, final question. I think this one is the final question because we haven’t talked about this topic just yet, but it’s interesting. I meant to bring it up during rapid fire. Regarding the Brewers and Jackson Chourio extension, at what point is a pre-ARB/ARB buyout turn from taking advantage to negotiating in good faith? Should these extensions be judged on a case-by-case basis? Or is the act of approaching young players of varying financial literacy with the choice of sacrificing future earnings for immediate financial stability inherently predatory? What a good question. That really cuts down to the core of this, that I feel like we’ve had quite a bit of back and forth on in the baseball world when it comes to the Atlanta Braves. Obviously, the Chourio extension is different. He’s not debuted yet, and his deal would be for eight years, which would cover all of his pre-ARB in ARB time, as well as two additional years of free agency. And the reporting is that it would be worth 82 million guaranteed. So, essentially, it’s just a math question as to whether he feels like in— in ARB, he could beat that number as well as those first two years of free agency, what he would be anticipating. And whether or not his belief in the fact that he could beat that number over the course of the next eight years is worth the risk of getting nothing. Do I think it’s inherently predatory? No. I don’t think early career extensions are inherently predatory. I think that they are manifestations of a predatory economy, which is team control.
ALEX: Yeah, which encourages—
BOBBY: I think team—
ALEX: —these sorts of contracts.
BOBBY: I think team control is predatory. I think extensions are like slightly le— less predatory, in a vacuum. And then, of course, certain— certain contracts in the extension genre can be more predatory. Like Ozzie Albies, for example, or even like Ronald Acuña, Jr., even though he got more than $100 million. Those are different because they were in the majors already, and they were kind of like extensions— this is like basically just buying out Chourio’s entire team control experience, so that he doesn’t even have to think about it. I think that maybe we overrate— or maybe we worry a little too much about the financial literacy of players when it comes to this, because I think all players understand the risk they’re taking in terms of limiting their upside of income. What— a phrase that I would maybe use instead would be their financial exposure, because a lot of the— a lot of players who take deals like this, or who— who are more prone to want a deal like this, just need the money earlier. Maybe not for themselves directly or maybe for themselves. Maybe for their families, or maybe to ensure generational wealth, which is a phrase that you hear a lot when contracts like this are signed. And the structure of team control is the reason that those players don’t have a chance of getting that for such a long time. Six years is so long. That’s like the entire time we’ve been doing this podcast. It’s like if someone debuted the day we did this podcast, they would just be hitting free agency this winter. That’s insane. Juan Soto still hasn’t hit free agency, and he won the World Series, and was the best player— the best hitter on that roster four years ago. So to me, the system is predatory. Clubs coming to players and trying to get them to sign extensions is like a next step of that predatory system, but it’s not in— on all fronts immoral, necessarily.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I mean, it’s fascinating.
ALEX: I mean, it— it is a manifestation of a system that treats players like commodities, right? Because these are basically bets that the—
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: —teams are making. They’re saying, “We think the value you’re going to provide for us is going to go beyond this dollar amount that we’re willing to give you right now.” Right? Like, “We think we can maybe lock you in at a lower amount. It provides you financial security.” Right? Which is like really important to a lot of guys. And there are plenty of examples of young players who have signed these deals who get life-changing money, and, like, don’t necessarily carve out a Major League role, right? And I— like I think I’ve— you know, there are guys like Scott Kingery and John Singleton who—
BOBBY: Those are the two always come—
ALEX: Those are, like, the— the two— and those were also like, I mean, remarkably, low-risk bets for both teams.
BOBBY: Just like this is. This is an insanely low-risk bet.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s the power— power imbalance.
ALEX: Right, exactly. So I— I mean, I do think there’s like an inherently predatory nature to it to an extent, but— but I— but it’s hard to, like, argue against that from, like, a player’s perspective, right? Who is taking into account considerations about betting on yourself, and your own health, and your ability to perform at the Major League level, and provide security for yourself and your family. And I think a lot of players, as we’ve seen, are happy to say, “You know what? It’s not necessarily my responsibility to think about how— what the market is going to look like in three, four, or five years.” Or, you know, how does this reflect on potential CBA negotiations? Like—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —like, you know, players gotta eat.
BOBBY: I think that— honestly, like, to me, what’s predatory is like employment contracts.
ALEX: Right. Right.
BOBBY: I mean, honestly, like, looking back on the employment contract that I was offered when I was 22, that’s predatory. And in the context of baseball, the employment contracts that they are offered when they are drafted, that’s predatory. But you can’t— one person cannot necessarily change that. A union can change that. The employment contract that I— would be offered at my job now if I was 22, would look very, very different than the one that I was offered before we had a union.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And if there was one thing that I would say that the union could do to introduce a cap on the nature of how predatory these extensions can be, it would be that you can only buy out the team control years, that you can’t sign an extension beyond those first six years. You have to have your real free agency.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: But player— I don’t think players would do that. I don’t think players would— enough players would agree to that, and I don’t even know if I’m right in suggesting that. Because then you compare that to Julio Rodriguez, a guy who has— who is so good that he has the ability to sign a real, like, lifetime extension, that is real, actual, unbelievable money, and you can quibble with whether or not he could have gotten more by— by pushing every ARB year to its maximum potential, and then signing a free agent contract or whether this extension is going to get him there. But those top earners would never agree to a structure like that, because it would take away what in the economy of baseball is the currency, which is long deals for a lot of money overall, even if that doesn’t maximize your year over year average annual value. So, I just don’t think that you can get everybody on the same page about that, and then it would be like a much tighter window of what that number could even be, because teams would only go like— they would project it based on like what you could ever even get in ARB. Like, they’re not going to give you a six-year $200 million extension just because you’re good, when they know that they can force you into pre-ARB and then ARB, and you’re never going to make even half of that.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So it would be— but the real answer is just get rid of team control.
ALEX: Right. I think every player should be on one-year contracts. The end of every season, renegotiate.
BOBBY: Or the— every player should be on like a 20-year contract with a player opt out at the end of the year.
ALEX: Well, there you go. Yeah, that works too.
BOBBY: We just got to get rid of pre-ARB. I think that there should be four years of team control, and they should all be ARB.
ALEX: Yeah. Hey, get rid of ARB entirely, bro.
BOBBY: No, I like ARB.
ALEX: Yeah?
BOBBY: Yeah. I mean, obviously, it’s not the same as full free agency, but then it wouldn’t be team control if you had full free agency. I’m just saying like in terms of realistic things that I think could get rid of some of these structures, that teams would still exist under. Like, ownership would still exist under.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Obviously, you know that my take is there should be no owners.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: But like— oh, in a world where the PA goes on strike and is like, “We’re not coming back to the table without this in it.” That doesn’t lose three years of baseball, that— that’s like more what I’m talking about—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —in a realistic world. Two years of team control knocked off, they’re all ARB. Let’s get radical, because they said that they wanted something like this. They said they wanted to knock off a year of team control, and they gave that up so fucking fast last time.
ALEX: Really fast.
BOBBY: And there was like a three-month strike. So like this is what I’m talking about, they’re— they’re not— I don’t think they’re really ready for that, like, war.
ALEX: No. I don’t think they’re actually—
BOBBY: I don’t think either side is ready for what it’s worth.
ALEX: No, but there— there was a story actually, that came out just this week from Evan— over at The Athletic, talking about how—
BOBBY: First name basis, no less.
ALEX: Evan Drellich of—
BOBBY: Evan of The Athletic.
ALEX: —of The Athletic. If you come on the pod, you’re a first name basis—
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: —person. Talking about how Tony Clark was like, “Yeah. You know, actually, things are pretty good right now. Like, the— I think— I think players are not being as critical and, like, you know, very different”— which, like, is not the kind of thing I think you necessarily want the leader of your union to come out and be like, “No. Yeah. Honestly, things are tight. Like, we’re kind of set.” I mean, maybe you do—
BOBBY: No, no.
ALEX: —but—
BOBBY: No, no, no, no, I don’t want to hear that. I don’t want to hear that. Okay, I think that’s gonna do it for this week’s episode of Tipping Pitches. If you would like to call in and leave a voicemail, probably not about running this time. 785-422-5881 is that number. You can email us, tippingpitchespod@gmail.com. You can still tweet at us if you want, tipping_pitches. If you want to join the Patreon and be part of our Slack, or be part of our bonus feed, you can find out more about how to do that at patreon.com/tippingpitches. We officially have released two bonus episodes. I’ve had fun doing both. And I hope people have enjoyed listening to them. Alex, anything else to announce? How’s that Christmas card going?
ALEX: I’m actively revolting against it at this point. You’re not getting a Christmas card until you read the column.
BOBBY: If— that’s easy. I’m gonna do that tonight. If you don’t get a Christmas card design done by one week from today—
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: —December 10th—
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: —I will make my own Christmas card of a photo of you of my choosing, and I will write them all, and send them to everybody.
ALEX: Well, I mean, we’ve got a little bit of wiggle room because like it’s not a Christmas card, right? So like—
BOBBY: Well, yeah, it’s true. It’s true. It’s true. Yeah, it’s a holiday card.
ALEX: It comes out Jan.— Jan. 1, you’re fine.
BOBBY: How is Jan. 1 appreciably different than us sending it around Western Christmas? We’re not going to write it in the week between Christmas and New Year’s.
ALEX: Speak for yourself, bro. I got nothing but time.
Bobbby: Are you off that week?
ALEX: I am.
BOBBY: Should we do a pod every day?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: All right. Great. Done.
ALEX: Cool.
BOBBY: Patreon feed, micropod [1:33:34] every day that week. I’m sure everybody would love it. Okay. Thank you everybody for listening. We’ll be back next week.
SPEAKER 12: Welcome to your [1:33:48] that you’ve been faking. Your own personal day of reckoning.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello, everybody. I’m Alex Rodriguez. Tipping Pitches. Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most. Tipping Pitches. So, we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Bobby: Alex. Shh [1:34:23]
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