Alex and Bobby are back with their fourth annual State of Labor in Baseball and are joined, as always, by FanGraphs staff writer Michael Baumann for a discussion on minor league unionization, payroll disparity, The Atlanta Model, and what the recent spate of mega deals says about the league’s economic health, plus why Baumann doesn’t fear Trea Turner, the scam that is grass, labor being entitled to some of what it creates, and much more.
Follow Michael on Twitter at @MichaelBaumann.
Links:
The 2022 State of Labor in Baseball
Join the Tipping Pitches Patreon
Tipping Pitches merchandise
Songs featured in this episode:
Dungeon Family — “Rolling’ (feat. André 3000, Cee-Lo & Society of Soul)” • Paul Simon — “Duncan” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and, and, and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about? That’s amazing! That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, the time has come. The fourth annual State of Labor in Baseball with Michael Baumann. This has really become a bellwether episode for us over the years. The first one we did, as we were just talking about before we started recording. I think we think we called that one State of Labor in Baseball, we probably just made a pun title for it. But then when–
ALEX: I’m pretty sure it was a Labor of Love, which tracks.
BOBBY: Sounds like what I would try to name this episode if it was not the next in the series. Baumann has been so generous with his time with us over the years and coming on and shooting the shit about labor, talking about serious issues, doing consumer rants. And this is always one of, one of I think our statement episodes for the year. A nice way to set the tone for to recap what we have been talking about for the last year. But also kind of foreshadow and set the tone for what we intend to talk about or intend to focus on for the next year. So if you’ve never listened to one of the State of Labor in Baseball, I know I’m starting this episode out so seriously, I’m not cracking any jokes.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: But I–
ALEX: No, there’s no, there’s no question you want to ask me?
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: Like–
BOBBY: No, I don’t have any questions for you. Other than, can you believe that we were at karaoke last night and someone was doing Skinny Love in front of the entire bar?
ALEX: That was a cultural reset, honestly.
BOBBY: Can you think of a worst song to do in front of an entire bar at a karaoke bar? Not because it’s not a good song or not because it’s not maybe fun for you to sing along to. But for the rest of the bar, it just sets an incredibly weird vibe.
ALEX: It, yeah. Because you’re like, all of a sudden you’re at a concert now. Now I’m just like–
BOBBY: Look–
ALEX: –I’m just like, I just want to sip my drink and like, and like listen.
BOBBY: My other question was going to be, can you believe that we were censored by that karaoke bar when they broke the microphone before giving it to us to sing Vindicated in front of the entire bar?
ALEX: That was so rude, but you know what I’ll say, we didn’t need the mic.
BOBBY: We didn’t need the mic.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Because all the dudes, all the dashboard, confessionalists were in there and we opened up the pit. Anyway, back to the point of the podcast, State of Labor in Baseball, this is the fourth one. The other three, I think are fun time capsules. If you are a new listener and you haven’t listened to any of them, there definitely have a moment with some of the things that we were focusing on. But I think a nice, if you have extra time you’re looking for something to go back and check out. I think they’re worth it contextually, to, to hear what we’ve talked about over the years. It’s usually our first or second episode of the New Year. So if you scroll back in your feeds a year back or two years back or three years back, you’ll see those episodes. This one we really, we really got into it. It was a little more adversarial than the past–
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: –State of Labor in Baseball. This is just because I haven’t seen Mike in a while I don’t work with him anymore, so I can’t poke and prod him. So this is my one opportunity to do that. But he kept being like, you’re such a fear monger.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t know, man. I just, everybody seems so optimistic. And I feel like we shouldn’t be optimistic.
ALEX: Well, you got him there, by the end. By the end, I think we were all filled with the pessimism that this sport rightly bestows on us.
BOBBY: What’s the state of Alex? How you doing? It’s been a while since we’ve recorded anything in person together.
ALEX: It is a little weird. I have Stevie next to me–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –right now. It’s been–
BOBBY: Call the right in the world again.
ALEX: –it’s been strange the last few weeks. But I’m good, you know, I apologies if my, my voice is you know, a little struggling–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –a little bit. The pipes were, the pipes were moving last night. We were at a musical bar. Like a, like a showtunes bar.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I didn’t know any of them. But–
BOBBY: We were at–
ALEX: –everyone else was having fun.
BOBBY: We were at a karaoke bar that Matt Harvey’s picture and signature was on the wall for, which is wild.
ALEX: I just, I wasn’t prepared for that, really.
BOBBY: West Village legend Matt Harvey, you know. What else is there to say? All to down the Westside.
ALEX: You can pictures on one oaks wall? Like do they have a celeb wall?
BOBBY: No. Because I feel like that so many, like, the clientele is mostly celebrities there.
ALEX: Right. So it’s not cool.
BOBBY: It’s gonna be weird. They should have like a normies wall.
ALEX: Right. Like you and I could be on there.
BOBBY: Exactly. Thank you to our new patron this week, Pete. I always love when there’s one new patron in a week because then I get to just shout out that person individually.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It makes, it makes it more special.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Thank you to Pete. You pick the one week where no one else signed up. That’s just good timing.
ALEX: That is good timing on your part. So Pete, this episode is for you.
BOBBY: The whole episode is dedicated to Pete. Thank you, Pete. Other Patreon housekeeping before we get to our conversation with Mike. The holiday cards as promised for the top tier, Alex Rodriguez VIP Club. They’re verging on maybe not being holiday cards anymore, but they are cards, and they do exist. They have arrived at Alex’s apartment, and they will be signed, sealed, and delivered in due time, you know.
ALEX: Right. Yeah, we’re not gonna put a date on it–
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: –necessarily.
BOBBY: The holliday could be made day.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And you know what, that would be more honest to who we are. The holiday could be pitchers and catchers reporting, that it might even be optimistic. The holiday could be opening day.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well, you don’t know. But you’re gonna get the card.
ALEX: Yeah, we’re, we’re nondenominational here, right? We don’t ascribe to one holiday or the other.
BOBBY: Right. My denomination is seeing Max Scherzer back throwing bullpens.
ALEX: That’s right. That’s right, brother.
BOBBY: In shorts.
ALEX: Always right in the world.
BOBBY: Okay, let’s do it, State of Labor in Baseball Part 4, 2023. We’re going to do it, but before we do, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[6:11]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: State of Labor in Baseball Part 4, we are joined by the one and only Michael Baumann, whom I have not talked to on our offline in quite a while. So perhaps we have a lot to catch up on related to labor in baseball. But Michael, hello, welcome–
MIKE: Hi!
BOBBY: –welcome back to the show.
MIKE: It’s always fun to, to do this. I, you know, I feel a little pigeon-holed only being the, the labor in baseball guy. I would have thought that, that I wanted more frequent appearances, but apparently not. Nevertheless, I’m happy to, to fulfill this, this, this role that the you guys have carved out for me.
BOBBY: Listen, you, you have one of those cards that you can play to come and like get out of jail free card and get on Tipping Pitches card.
MIKE: Okay.
BOBBY: Whenever you’d like to, so if there’s something else that you want to talk about, talk about, whether it be Wade Miley or Drew Smyly, or Jordan Lyles, or whatever else, whatever other minutia you’re writing about day to day on fangraphs.com. New roles since the last time–
MIKE: We–
BOBBY: –you’ve been on the podcast.
MIKE: –we were just talking about this. The amount of baseball stuff I have to develop an opinion about is just, it’s, it’s a quantum leap from even the, the early days there where you’re where I was writing more frequently about baseball. It’s I wrote about Eric Hosmer like park effects, that’s, it’s gonna be going up tomorrow. Like, man, I know so much. My brain is so big right now.
ALEX: Well, so if anything, this is, this is a break for you. This is your bread and butter right here.
MIKE: It’s true, yeah.
ALEX: You can turn the brain off, will talk labor. Easy, easy money.
MIKE: Yeah, definitely, that’s, that’s what I want people to think about my brain, or my labor analysis. This is a guy he’s turned his brain on.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: I think people have been thinking about that [8:02]. Thinking [8:05]–
MIKE: And I walk right where you at.
BOBBY: –for years. Yeah, exactly. I, I got ahead of myself couldn’t even get the joke out. Michael, you’re here to talk about the State of Labor in Baseball, and maybe do your third straight consumer rant at the end of the podcast? But we’ll save that, we’ll save that for when it gets here. I guess we should just start from a macro perspective, a lot has happened in the last year. We got the CBA, since the last time we talked. The minor leagues have unionized since the last time we talked, which I never thought I would say out loud. So I guess from your general health, grade, grade, the State of Labor in Baseball, A through F, from a general overall health perspective. And then we can dive into some of the details of it a little later.
MIKE: Okay, so gen- letter grade! I was gonna say, so when they do this, the State of the Union, like the President has to say, the State of the Union is either good or bad–
BOBBY: Oh, sure yeah, let’s do that. That’s great, that’s better that the letter grade.
ALEX: [9:01] department.
BOBBY: Right, yeah.
MIKE: I’m not prepared to talk about my health on this podcast. For the first time, since, since I’ve been coming on and doing these appearances, the State of Labor in Baseball is good.
ALEX: Wow!
MIKE: I’d say like–
ALEX: Big word.
MIKE: –it was solid B to B+, yeah. I, I am optimistic about the way things are going right now.
ALEX: So I mean, when we, when we look back on everything that has happened in the last year, right. And Bobby just, just rattled off a few of them. And it all comes amid sort of this, I hesitate to say historic amount of spending, because inflation and all that, that sort of stuff. But we’re seeing a lot of money being handed out to big free agents this offseason. And I, I wonder kind of looking at all these sorts of data points. Do you see them as indicative of a changing of the tides when it comes to Labor in Baseball? Or is it more kind of a, a respite from, from how things have, have been, right? Is it more just kind of noise that, that things, you know, might go back to, to normal in a couple years?
MIKE: Well, I think that, so there are a couple of trends that, that are notable in terms of free agents spending. One is the teams are actually buying good players and attempting to win, which is something that I took for granted my entire life until about 2016-2017 or so. That teams are actually going after top of the, top of the market free agents and giving them you know, huge guaranteed we’re, guaranteed we’re seeing some movement at the top of the market in terms of average annual value. One thing that, that we’re not seeing is, I guess, with the exception of Aaron Judge, and some of these short, very short term contracts for older pitchers is a huge rise, is a separation between what the absolute top of market guys get and what the second tier guys get, which is not the end of the world for me. The people that I’m least concerned about in terms of labor consumers or stakeholders in baseball are like Rafael Devers or Trea Turner, like those guys are gonna get what’s coming to them are that sounded ominous. Not that that, they’re gonna get, they’re gonna get what they deserve. You know, and they’re gonna become oppressor class rich no matter what, you know, whether it’s they make $300 million or $500 million dollars.
BOBBY: You can’t be doing blanket threats to Trea Turner like that, now that he lives so close to you.
MIKE: I don’t know where he’s gonna live.
BOBBY: Well, he’s gonna spend at least 81 days very close to you next year so.
MIKE: He’s a little man, I’m not good in. If Phillies have signed Carlos Rodon that will be a different story. But Trea Turner is a teeny little man. I, I don’t fear him. So there, but there’s a flattening, which means that, that it’s worth it to go out and spend big money on like, it’s worth it to spend $27 million a year on Trea Turner. Well, we’ll see about Carlos Correa. But we’re like Xander Bogaerts versus spend like $25 million a year on Dansby Swanson. Like the were- and I think that’s doing a lot to the rhetoric around these huge contracts, these huge star level contracts. Because people were saying about Bryce Harper, can you believe that he’s going to be under contract until, you know, for 13 years? I’m like, yeah, look at the, you know, look at the AAB, like this is not that much to spend on a player that good now, and it will be even less so if we’re all still alive in 2030. So I, you know, what, what we’re seeing is the the upper middle class of free agents. So you know, the Taijuan Walker, Jameson Taillon. Guys like that are being made whole. And that was a real concern, in the real doldrums of the capital strike in the late 2010s. Was just this entire class of players that were, you know, had their service time manipulated. They were getting underpaid at the minor league level. You know, they’re like, if you make it free agency, you will get yours, then the owners are just like, nah, you’re not gonna. And now, you know, we’re seeing those guys start to get paid again, which is nice. You know, as much as I would love a fundamental upheaval of the system, you know, free agency, I think is, is doing about what it’s supposed to, which hasn’t been the case for at least five years.
BOBBY: Yeah, you mentioned the long contracts. And I think that they are one of the trickier aspects of the trends of spending that we’ve seen and like the positive vibes around Labor in Baseball of the last couple months, really since minor league unionization, I feel like people are, people generally, and even us on this podcast generally feel like things are going better than last few years. Because we’re not stupid, we’re looking around and saying things are definitely actually better than they were the last couple of years. A lot of people have attributed that to a new CBA. You know, owners feeling like they have a level of financial security with what they know to be the contract. And so that they are not trying to hedge their bets a little bit to see what happens in the eventual lockout, or an eventual strike or whatever might come from that. So, but for me, I can’t totally get behind these long contracts, being great for the game until I’m like five or six years into them. And I see how that affects the future structure of deals. Does that make sense? Or am I like, panicking over it a little bit too much? Like yes, yes it’s good that these players are getting these huge sums. And it’s obviously their choice that they’re taking longer security over short term, higher average annual value. But I do think that the way that the baseball economic system structure, it leads to less trickle down for, for guys that are going to be negotiating these contracts in the future. While allowing the sort of absurdly large revenues of baseball continuing to grow. More of that pie is going to be going to the owners if that makes sense.
MIKE: I don’t think, so I, I agree with you that we won’t know the, the total, you know the totality of the the effect for maybe five years, maybe even longer than that for some of these 10, 11-year contracts. But I think that the pie is not constrained by those contracts, it’s constrained by the existence of a luxury tax. And as long as most owners are going to abide by that, if the start if the absolute top end superstar players are still getting theirs, they’re still getting their $300 million contracts, you know, if it’s 300 million over seven for a 30-year old, or a 31-year old, somebody like Xander Bogaerts, versus or I guess Bogaerts didn’t- I’m routing, Bogaerts didn’t literally sign for 300 million. But for seven years versus 11, I don’t think that’s depressing his total career earnings all that much. And if it’s, if you’re looking at a tax number, and those tax numbers are fixed, and, you know, I don’t think that’s good. I just think that is, and that’s just something we’re gonna have to deal with for the foreseeable future. That he’s taking a smaller percentage of that total tax number, and a lot of teams are still using that as a threshold, or, you know, try, or even if they’re going over, they’re trying to stay tethered to it, to at least a certain point, except for the Mets. And so, if Bogaerts is taking up, I don’t know, 27 million of that, as opposed to 35 or 37, then that is getting redistributed to middle relievers, you know, or to, you know, to Jean Segura, Craig Kimbrel. Or, or Drew Smyly. You know, guys who are getting like real money, you know, Drew Smyly assigned for was it 2 and 19 guaranteed with an opt out. You know, that’s, that’s big for somebody who’s really a fifth starter. Even, even the amount of money that’s being tossed around now. And so teams are going out, and committing money to, they’re committing money deeper on the roster. And I think that’s a, it’s an undeniable good because the like I said the guys, what I’m worried about is not Bryce Harper, or, or Xander Bogaerts, or, or Aaron Judge’s, you know, fourth 100 million dollars that they make over their career. It’s, you know, whether, you know it’s, it’s guys like, like Rich Hill, or Drew Smyly, or Jordan Lyles, you know, or Kyle Gibson. You know, guys who are making a career out of this, like they should get rich based on like, sustainably rich, based on the amount of money that’s getting poured into the sport. Because if it’s not going to them, it’s certainly not coming back to us.
ALEX: I thought the way that you put it earlier, when talking about the state of things right now, was interesting how, how it’s not like this moment is an aberration where owners are deciding to spend this was actually the norm for much of the history of baseball was that you expected the teams to go out and spend money on the good available players. And it’s really that the, the last decade or so, even less than that has been the, the kind of aberration, so to speak. So what do you, what do you think the sort of impetus was for that change for teams to, to come back to the table and say, Actually, we do think it’s prudent to sign the good players out there? Like is it just, does it take one owner coming in and saying, I’m gonna buy up all the good players that I need to in order to win? Is it them making a collective calculation that actually cutting, cutting our losses is not, is not–
MIKE: No they don’t–
ALEX: –getting us very far.
MIKE: –they don’t make collective calculations. And that’s been, you know, that’s been in the news.
ALEX: Right.
MIKE: [18:38] good.
ALEX: Oh yes, no, debunked, debunked many times.
MIKE: So I think a lot of it has to do with the cooling of tensions after the lockout that the day taunt that we have. It’s not just that we’ve got a durable system that’s going to be in place for the next few years. I think just the, the amount of bad blood that went through the capital strike years, and then the pandemic, and the negotiations around that. And then even though the lockout didn’t really have a big tangible effect, I think on the structure of baseball, it’s just going through it took so much of the animus out. And there, I mean, it also helps that there, you know, there are owners that no matter what, you know, Tampa Bay is never going to spend no matter what. Cleveland’s never going to spend no matter what. Pittsburgh is never going to spend no matter what. And some of those teams find ways to be competitive in spite of that for sure. But it requires owners who actually want to win and if that’s the Mets for a change, you know, the Wilpons never ran rock bottom payrolls, but they certainly weren’t doing what Steve Cohen’s doing. You know, the Rangers are spending when they historically have vacillated between spending and not. The same, you know, the Padres are spending in a way that I don’t think they, they ever really have. You know, the Phillies are acting like a big market team. You know, you need, the Blue Jays, you know, the list goes on and on. And for whatever reason, I don’t know what the, whether this is the result of collective discussions or just a bunch of individual teams have decided to invest all at the same time. Like, that’s what, that’s what we need. It’s, that’s what this system needs to work. It’s just competition. That’s what it’s supposed to be. And I’m not going to stand up here and keep for a system that the privileges owners and, and depresses wages with a draft and a salary cap and arbitration. But there is a logic to it under capitalism, the way it’s supposed to work. And I think the difference between where we were five years ago, and now is it’s working the way it was designed to work.
BOBBY: Yeah, I think you’re right, I guess. I hate to be like the cynic, let’s pour sort of pouring cold water on the whole like discussion in the State of Labor being good compared to the last three years of us doing this. I guess I’m just a little bit cynically skeptically looking at this as, okay, what has really happened in the last year. We had a lockout, and we had owners basically double down on the system that we all agreed one year ago, is totally broken. And now this is just like, we sprayed some for breeze on this totally rotten system for a few years. And but then six years from now aren’t just going to look back with the same negativity that we’ve been looking on it for the last six years? Like I, I, I struggled to see what from the last year other than minor league unionization, which we should probably pivot to shortly as, as one of the shining beacons of last year. I struggled to see what has fundamentally become healthier in the long term. Like I, I what I look at is I see owners who have recognized that they push it a little too far. And that, especially with regards to the pandemic, they really lost a lot of the court of public opinion in comparison to when they’ve previously acted out. And throughout baseball history. And I don’t know, like, am I happy for all these guys getting paid? Yes. Do I think that all of these guys getting paid necessarily means that the sport is in a healthier place, you know, 10, 20 years from now? Probably not, I think it’s, it’s, it’s just a continued renewal of the same system that we all agree is going to suppress younger players, salaries, and then give the option to owners with what they do with older players and free agency in the future. And I don’t think that they just because they’re doing it now means that they will do it in the future.
MIKE: I agree 100%, and what you’re making it like, the difference between the way, I’m articulating this versus you I don’t think that’s a disagreement over the facts. I think, you know, I’m acknowledging that, that we’ve sprayed for breeze on the rotten fruit and the for breeze rotten fruit smells way better than non for breeds rotten fruit. So you know–
BOBBY: Right, there’s a reason for breeze cells.
MIKE: But and, and absolutely 100%, like this system working, you know, and I’m making, you know, asshole quotes with my fingers here is dependent on the commitment of a small cabal of billionaires to do something other than just line their pockets. Which I admit is probably not the most durable, sustainable system that you could have. So what’s stopping this from backsliding into the next CBA negotiation approaches? I think the only real structural changes we’ll see what happens with the minor league CBA negotiation. Like that’s the–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –that is the only major structural difference. I think that, you know, there are struct- small structural changes that, you know, the, the pre-arb bonus pool, for instance. Like that’s putting a significant amount of money in the, in the pockets of players who really deserve it. You know, there are small things we’re celebrating, but I think the difference between you and I, I think don’t disagree on the facts or the, the norms, I think just, I’m taking an incrementalist view and you’re taking acceleration it’s view. And–
BOBBY: Wow!
MIKE: –celebrating the floor–
BOBBY: Flip what it usually is, between us.
MIKE: Is it? You know, I feel like I’ve, I’ve maybe things were just so bad the past couple years that, that I would just like skirt burn it all down. But–
BOBBY: No, I was talking about the wider world, not baseball wise. Like you’re, you’re–
MIKE: You think I’m more, you think I’m more of an accelerationist than you?
BOBBY: I don’t know, we’d have to really sit down and talk about all the issues.
MIKE: I feel. Yeah, I don’t know. That is, that’s a conversation we should have all fair. But that surprised me. Because I, ’cause like I do feel like an incrementalist a lot of time in lots of spaces.
ALEX: Right, you can tell this one, this one really, really got to you, Mike. This is quite an accusation being thrown.
MIKE: I don’t think it’s an accusation. Like I think like the cool thing to be is an accelerationist. I think it’s deeply uncool to be incrementalist. But I’m–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –acknowledging that I usually am the, the uncool thing, when there are real world stakes involved. But I guess like- you don’t want to like go break out the bargaining team minutes from.
BOBBY: No, I’d rather not.
MIKE: From February 2021, but–
BOBBY: Yeah, they’re, they’re buried in a Google Doc for a reason.
MIKE: Yeah.
ALEX: But- okay, so speaking of bargaining, we have to, we have to talk about it. And then–
BOBBY: Segway alert.
ALEX: –[25:07] a few times already, yeah, that’s right.
BOBBY: Segway alert, yeah.
ALEX: The minor leagues, they unionized, or at least they said they were going to, they’re going to unionize, they’ve been recognized.
MIKE: They got recognized.
ALEX: This is, they got recognized.
MIKE: [25:17] like, yeah.
ALEX: So it’s like, so it’s there. The work now is obviously, creating that bargaining agreement, which is a massive uphill lift, as I’m sure both you guys know, creating your first bargaining agreement is, is certainly not something to be taken lightly. And it’s something that takes time. So I’m curio- you know, that was, that was back in September, we’re now, you know, four months out from that, or, or so. We haven’t really heard a lot in terms of movement since then. So I’m sure they kind of both sides kind of get ready to get their ducks in a row. But I’m wondering what you think this process sort of looks like and what is the, I guess, 50th percentile outcome for minor leaguers? Like the, the reasonable sort of things for them to achieve, or, or what the sort of pie in the sky, I guess CBA looks like for them?
MIKE: I don’t even want to go pie in the sky. So I’ll say like, this is the getting the first. So if you’re a white collar worker, which, like, basically, baseball players are classified, you know, they’re not mining coal or anything. The hardest thing your union is going to do, particularly if your bosses are used to having everything is getting a first collective bargaining agreement, just getting them to, getting the bosses to back down from we have everything to we have most of it is just such a huge lift, and it takes so much commitment, and, and resolve. And it’s, you know, having been through it myself, like it’s, it’s one of the hardest things that, that I’ve ever had to do.
BOBBY: It’s honestly–
MIKE: It’s like–
BOBBY: –more of a conceptual hurdle than an actual–
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: –like–
MIKE: Because when, because once you have–
BOBBY: –quantifiable hurdle.
MIKE: –’cause once you have that first bargaining CBA in place, you’re bargaining over money. And money is numbers, and if there are numbers, then you can average them and there’s a compromise somewhere in the middle. If you’re bargaining over values, if you’re bargaining over, like, a philosophical disagreement over, we deserve part of this. I mean, we really deserve all this. But like, for the acknowledging, the, the, the world that we live in. You know, we deserve part of the labor that you know, labor is entitled to some of what it creates, like, it’s basically what you’re going to do to the [27:38]–
BOBBY: Famous quote.
MIKE: Yeah. Like getting that through the heads of people who are used to passive income is very, very difficult. And so like, I don’t know, you know, I really don’t know how this is going to end up just because the, the range and outcomes is so great. And I think the minor leaguers really have the bully pulpit in the way that no other sports union, I guess, like them the PWHPA, the, the Women’s Hockey union is the only one that, that has really had the, like public consensus on their side. The, the way the, the minor leaguers would, and that’s a, you know, it’s a much smaller, megaphone, that, that those women were, were operating with it. Even though like I think it’s, I don’t want to go, go back into that. I it’s, it’s the best executed sports Labor Action of my lifetime. But the, the, what is now the PWHPA did a few years ago before the, the World Championships. But anyway, like, their pub- the public is like, these guys need to get paid. And, you know, they need to have better working conditions. So like, what’s a realistic outcome that they should be shooting for? I think it’s what minor league hockey players get and who are unionized. Which is, every one of them makes a living wage. It’s not, you’re not gonna get rich, but like, if you’re a full time minor league hockey player in the AHL, or ACHL, you’re making at least I think it’s about $50,000 a year. And you’re getting health insurance and if you get traded, reassigned during the season, the team will help with moving costs and, and relocation. And like that’s, I think, that’s what everybody deserves. Yeah.
ALEX: Right, that seems can I say, normal?
MIKE: Well, it’s–
ALEX: Atleast in this world?
MIKE: –so much more than what they have now.
ALEX: I know.
MIKE: You know, living in closets, you know, making $8,000 a year that, that they’re, that they’re used to living with. You know, you just think about I think there’s a romantic, you know, paying your dues type of, type of conception of the Minor League Baseball player is. It’s like, you know, a 21-year old he’s just out of college and he’s chasing his dream and you know, we all like you’re in a band and you know, you did a tour across the East Coast or something, you all pile into the van and you know, slept, you know, couch-surfed and stuff and, or, you know,
BOBBY: Dropped the Bandcamp link, Mike.
MIKE: Some- yeah, what did Jer- what did jerrydipotodo.com. Uhm. So I do have a Bandcamp that’s the only song on it. So it you know, but everybody has this romantic like, almost famous type of conception–
ALEX: Yeah.
MIKE: –of like, you know, these are just young guys chasing their dream with nothing to lose. And so many of them have wives and kids, so many of them have like families to support. Or, you know, imagine like, you’re at a college or you’re at high school and you’re in your first job, and you’re trying to like, put down roots, maybe start a family, you know, maybe save money to buy a house. And you’re making a couple $100 a week and you know, living at a best case scenario in a hotel, and you have to pick up and move every four months. Like, that’s no way to live. And, you know, they’re, they’re necessary sacrifices that I think you need to make. Like, this is not a normal job, this is not like, working at TD Bank, you know, that’s, that there, this is different from–
BOBBY: No free ads.
MIKE: Yeah, certainly not for banks. That’s my bad, I should know that. You know, you’re not, you’re not, you know, working in normal white collar job, this is different–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –their, their, you know, it’s going to be harder in a lot of respects. But it’s just the nature of the way things have to work. And I, you know, everybody, all the players will acknowledge that, you know. But it shouldn’t be this hard, it should be attainable. Like you should be able to live comfortably, if you’re a professional baseball player in the United States, you know, I would argue in the Dominican Republic of Venezuela. But that’s like the next frontier for, for labor. But, you know, you should be able to live like a comfortable middle class existence if you’re doing this. There’s that, you know, there’s enough money to make this happen within the sport, without anybody breaking a sweat. And it’s, and it’s the way it is in hockey to wait isn’t basketball now to with the the G League and there’s no reason it can’t be, this can’t be the case in baseball. And I think that’s a fair question to ask. You know, it’s a question that the union should be raising in public as they do these negotiations. Like, if this is possible in hockey, why isn’t this possible in baseball? This is possible in basketball, why isn’t this possible in baseball? You know, why are our guys unpaid sea- or, like, seasonal apprentices are whatever the, the verbiage was? You know, you should be able to, even if you’re not getting rich, you know, you should be able to not worry about where you’re going to live or what you’re going to eat.
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: It’s just such a basic tenet of human dignity generally, that I don’t think the baseball players are, it’s gonna be a very easy argument to win. In a way that like Max Scherzer in his $40 million contract being, you know, the frontman for, for the major league players when they were negotiating their last CBA. You know, that’s a it’s a hard circle to square for a lot of people and it just isn’t the case. And I think like one of the biggest battles that minor leaguers have won even before they unionize is that you go to like the average person. You know, the average, even baseball fan, you say, you talk about guys in Triple-A or like, Oh, they’re getting paid millions to, to play a kid’s game. No, they’re not, they’re not getting, you know, a lot of them aren’t even getting paid 10s of 1000s to get to play kids game. And just now that that’s common knowledge, that’s such a big hurdle to minor leaguers getting the, the livelihood that they deserve taken out of the way. So I, you know, I think that’s a realistic thing to aim for. I think that’s something they, they can and should get.
BOBBY: Yeah, so, to me, there are sort of three buckets of interest in, in bargaining but in the whole process. The, the first one is you’ve already kind of alluded to it, it’s making a living wage in the present. Making it possible to be a minor leaguer day in, day out, year in, year out to try to have a career in Major League Baseball. That isn’t the case now, but that is something that bargaining definitely will address and I have no, I, I have no worries that that is something that will be vastly improved by bargaining. The second thing is what happens to minor leaguers after they wash out? I think that needs to be part of the first CBA too. Are there needs to be some sort of team sponsored or program- programmatic approach to what happens when these guys have to transition out of the extremely weird world of baseball that the owners have created by design to line their pockets with these minor leaguers who, you know, provide tremendous value in total but maybe not as much value individually as Major League Baseball players. So I don’t know what that looks like whether that’s like a career program, whether that’s like going back to school and getting entirely paid for program no matter what your contract says no matter what your previously agreed to terms with your minor- with your major league team say. And then the third part of it is more conceptual for me. Like the third part of it for me is how much do the minor leaguers really want to test the waters of what their value actually is to Major League Baseball? And what kinds of things can they say, Hey, we deserve this. Do, what do we deserve, you know, revenue sharing in terms of what the teams are making? Do we, do we deserve a certain percentage of what the pie of Major League Baseball is? Or do we just deserve these flat numbers? And how are we going to approach that negotiation? Because this is their one chance to get all of that stuff, like you said. The, the first CBA, the philosophical differences that you approach and introduce and bargain over and are able to win are going to–
MIKE: It will determine the ground rules for [35:31]–
BOBBY: –forever, for, for–
MIKE: Yes.
BOBBY: –literally forever. The first CBA, Marvin Miller is the reason that we have the different structures that our pro players association now. Like this is just the way things work. Now, are there ways to make radical changes in different labor sectors in the United States? Yes, there are ways, but this is not a particularly friendly environment to that type of union activity. And–
MIKE: And if you do that, you still have to overcome the set- the status quo that you negotiated the first time.
BOBBY: Exactly, because then there, what lawyers are always gonna say is, this is the way things have always been done.
MIKE: Yes.
BOBBY: And that is an incredibly pro management, pro capital way of thinking. But that is just the world that we live in right now. And particularly the country that we live in right now. Especially when it, when it comes to athletes that after they are making a living wage. Like the public really isn’t going to care all too much about the, the specifics, the minutia of the structures. Like nobody besides us really cares about the, the revenue sharing and luxury tax numbers, really. Nobody would a select few amount of people really care about those specific details. And so that third bucket is kind of the one that I’m most interested in seeing how it plays out. I’m also kind of curious, like how much we’re even going to know about that stuff. Because I don’t think now that, now that everybody has sort of patted themselves on the back, that we’ve all supported minor leaguers enough, and they have a union. Like, I’m really curious to see what the rest of media that finally came around to this problem, really cares enough about to cover over the next couple of years as they do negotiate.
MIKE: Yeah. And I think that’s a fair reminder that, like, I need to report on this more than I could do it. You know, frankly, but, but, so bucket two, I think the transition out, that is also I think attainable. Because–
BOBBY: Me too.
MIKE: –you know, what you mentioned like, if you know, if a team signs, even a college junior or high school or out of a college commitment, like, it’s, I don’t think it’s universal, but I think it’s very common, that they say if you don’t have your degree, and you sign with us, now, we’ll help you go get it once you’re done playing, if that’s something you want to do. And you know, I think like throwing in for job training, or, you know, internships or something. Like baseball teams have so many business connections. And–
BOBBY: Exaclty, yeah.
MIKE: –and like, you know, ex athletes are, you know, they have a leg up on those of us who couldn’t run very fast in the, in the job market, like–
BOBBY: You don’t know–
MIKE: –that’s something–
BOBBY: –if that’s Alex’s, he could, he could be a four six guy right in front of your very own.
MIKE: That’s true, that’s true. I, okay, I’m not gonna be fascinated, hobbled me in the job market. You know, it will cost the, it would, it would cost the owners almost nothing to like, set up some sort of internship pipeline or something, you know, and, and it would be such a huge PR win I think that that will be an easy get, that will be, like something that the both, both sides could come away with, like seeing is a win. As far as bucket three testing limits, I think that curiosity of yours is gonna go completely unsafiated. Because, like, these guys have a lot to lose. And you know, they don’t have millions of dollars, or even 100s of 1000s of dollars of reserves to sit on if they go on strike and like they try to wait out a year. And you know, these guys are, are hungry.
BOBBY: But, but wait–
MIKE: What they want do this.
BOBBY: –do they not now though, that they’re part of the Players Association? Like is there not a certain amount of money from the strike fund–
MIKE: That’s true, the MLBPA–
BOBBY: –MLBPA now that they have a new CBA that they could alot two minor leaguers to at least maintain–
MIKE: And they should be.
BOBBY: –terrible status quo that they already have.
MIKE: Right. That’s true. And so but that’s going to be limited. But you know, the players aren’t, you know, the big leaguers aren’t going to set aside like enough to keep the entire minor league ecosystem. You know–
BOBBY: I guess, like–
MIKE: –two years, like–
BOBBY: –then they shouldn’t be allowed them into the union then if they weren’t actually going to stand up for them when the fight comes, you know.
MIKE: I’ve got bad news about veteran, you know, veteran athletes and what they do to the young guys when push comes to shove. These are athletes who know that they have a limited window in which to capitalize on the very prestigious and lucrative dream that they’ve been sold their entire lives that they’ve been working their entire lives. For they’re not going to like it’s hard enough to get big leaguers to down tools for enough time to make ownership sweat. Like if you want wouldn’t like, we will absolutely find out how, how much the minor leaguers are worth if they decide to go on strike for an extended period of time.
BOBBY: Yeah, the answer is a larger number than the owners want people to know about.
MIKE: And it’s a, and it’s a larger number than they’re going to get, because I don’t think that you’re going to get these competitive guys who are all, you know, self interested. They’re all trying to make the majors themselves to stunt their own development by, by going on strike and, and, and getting rid of a big chunk of the season. You know, and there’s a limit to as much as, you know, we could talk about a strike fund or we can talk about, you know, an MLBPA sponsored camp to keep these guys in shape and you know, hiring coaches and getting them continuing their development if, if a work stoppage does come. And I hope I’m wrong on this. But it’s, that’s a big lift, for guys–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –at that point in their careers. And so I’m, I’m skeptical that we’re gonna get this kind of burn it all down moment that you’re hoping for it. Even though I think you’re right, I think if they did, that, they could end up much, you know, much, much better often even, you know, pro labor lefties like, like us think that they can, think that they can do. I just don’t, like I said, I’d love to be wrong, but I just don’t see that it’s a realistic outcome. If we do see a work stoppage, it’ll probably be pretty limited. And this is what we saw on the, you know, it’s going to be something I think about with regards to this lockout at the major league level, like for the rest of my career is like, the Executive Committee voted unanimously, not to accept the CBA.
BOBBY: Yup.
MIKE: And yet, in the, in the rank and file wanted to play. And, you know, I don’t know how much difference I would have made, because by that point, they negotiated themselves into maintaining the status quo. Which is not saying, you know, I think they got a bad deal. I think they got the best deal they could at the, at the time. And they, you know, want a lot of meaningful, they want a lot of meaningful stuff and got the game going back on the track that, you know, it was designed to operate on. But it seems like, you know, union leadership did not think this was the deal worth accepting and the players and the, the, the rank and file just wanted to get back in play. And I just don’t know how you’re gonna ever get around that in the context of a, of a sports labor union.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I mean, I mean, yeah, definitely, with much less guaranteed you’re risking far more, and you’re talking about the mindset that has kind of created this environment, right? That, you know, the minor leagues are a grind, and you got to pay your dues. Like, as much as the conversation kind of has shifted on the grand scheme of things. Those clubhouses are still very insular, right? And this is still something that’s like instilled in them from a very young age, right? Is pay your dues, go out there and, and grind. And, you know, workout 25 hours a day, and all that. You hear that from, from major league players all the time, right? And so as much as they might be talking about the value of their labor, as it were. And it’s probably not even in terms like that, I think you’re right, that there’s, there’s probably still a pretty strong mindset of like, at the end of the day, I’m here to play baseball. And I just want to kind of do that, in a way that ruffles feathers like as little as possible.
MIKE: And what you mentioned about the insularity of a clubhouse you can use to your advantage in a sports labor context. Like it makes it very easy to organize.
ALEX: Yeah.
MIKE: But, and that’s I think that’s a big part of the reason why we went from zero to recognition in the span of, in, how do you remember like, it was just like a few days?
ALEX: It really like, yeah, yeah, like a week.
MIKE: From, from when news this broke publicly to the league, recognizing the union. And like that has to do, that’s one advantage of the insular clubhouse. Whereas at the major league level, you are working together as a team within your clubhouse. And you’re trying to compete on the field and look out for each other on the field. And that kind of, you know, that team atmosphere, it translates very well to a union shop context. Whereas in the minor leagues, you’re doing this job, because, so in order to not have to do this job anymore. Like you want out of this clubhouse, which means there’s a lot more turnover, which makes it harder to build that, that team solidarity. But also you’re competing, not just against your opponents, but really more than it can really you’re competing against your teammates for playing time at the next level, more than you’re even competing against your opponents to win on a night to night basis. And so I don’t know like, I don’t know that any minor lever would articulate things that way. But it I think it has to change the calculus on a subconscious level.
BOBBY: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, if only because people are in places for shorter amounts of time, and it takes time. It takes a lot of time to bring people around to radical ideas, honestly. And even when they’re not that radical, it takes a lot of time to bring people around to the idea of deciding to form this union. That’s why we were so gobsmacked when all of this was happening so fast. Now, of course, stuff was happening behind closed doors for much longer than we knew about. And they did such a great job of organizing it. Even though it was happening out in the open, I think that we could only kind of read between the lines of this stuff leading towards unionization with something like Advocates for Minor Leaguers and the collective actions that they were sort of taking to raise awareness over these sorts of things and buckback against things like housing problems or housing insecurity for minor leaguers. So I don’t know, I mean, I am with you in that I’m not, you know, holding my breath for that bucket three that I alluded to to really be satiated. But what is Tipping Pitches, if not a place to try to move the, the baseball labor Overton window further left, you know?
MIKE: Oh, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m sure we’ve talk- I don’t remember exactly what we talked about in years past, but I’m sure we’ve talked about like abolishing MLB. And, and having the players come together under a workers collective and–
BOBBY: Oh, yeah.
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: Of course. And also, like, we were talking about minor league unionization at all as something that was very unlikely a year ago. So why, why not just shoot our shot, basically? That’s my take.
ALEX: Shifting our focus to the majors, again. I’m curious kind of what you make about the increasing gulf in team payrolls. We already kind of talked a little bit about the top end of the market, and the teams that are willing to spend two, three, even $400 million. But we still have that class of teams that’s kind of dragging down the bottom. And it’s interesting, because that was a really big talking point around the CBA negotiations, right? As we want more parity in this league, or at least want two teams to act like there’s a little more parity in this league. And the CBA didn’t really address that payroll disparity. And we’re kind of where we have been for the last few years. So I guess I’m kind of curious how you think this offseason spending changes any of that at all? And really, if, if there’s anything that can kind of be done to close that gap, beyond a salary floor, which will necessitate a salary cap.
MIKE: Salary cap, yeah.
ALEX: Which the plate players aren’t going to agree to.
MIKE: Yeah. So I’m coming, I like literally right before we were, we started recording, I was on the TSN Racing Podcast to talk about F1. And F1 is going through, like they’ve instituted a spending cap, which amounts to a salary cap and in for the same reasons to try to, they say it’s to increase parity and reduce the gulf between. The competitive gulf between rich teams and poor teams, really, it’s just about reducing costs and increasing profits. And, you know, competitive parity will or will not happen, and then who really cares. But what I mentioned in that conversation was that, like, what it’s supposed to do is try to is to pay back, like the big teams, you know, Dodgers Yankees, Mets, usually the Red Sox, you know, the Phillies, the usually the Cubs. Like, you know, the, the richest teams, you know, it’s bad for the sport, if they can just spend so much. And they do spend so much that they can just run rings around, around everybody else. So it makes sense for the health of the sport to try to make it attainable, at least make it so that upsets can happen. And if in order to do that, you want to take something like the, the luxury tax. And, you know, take that overage and distribute it, you know, distribute some of the rich teams money to the poor teams, so that maybe we don’t have, you know, so the Pirates can go toe to toe financially with the Mets. But they can get close enough that they can compete if they’re smart. Like, you know, Bill James articulated that this way. I think that’s a good way to look at like revenue sharing. And what happens instead is that money doesn’t get, even though it’s like dejure blackletter law that they’re supposed to reinvest it in the team, what it gets allocated to is just owners pocketing it or debt service or, you know, number of other off field things that don’t actually make. I’m gonna dump on the Pirates until they stop being so easy to dump on. Make the Pirates more competitive on a year to year basis. And, you know, that we’re seeing this in like, this is, like, the reason that, that I care about any of this stuff in sports is because you can see parallels in real life and like, look at the Southwest Airlines scheduling fiasco. Like they during the pandemic like so–
ALEX: Here’s the consumer bet–
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: –here we go–
MIKE: Under–
ALEX: –here we go!
MIKE: –under the–
BOBBY: Stock 5x time with the pod–
MIKE: Yeah!
BOBBY: –let’s fucking go!
MIKE: Yeah! This is exactly where I’m going. So under capitalism, the, the thing is, if you’re not profitable, if you can’t compete, if you’re not a good enough business to stay afloat, then you shouldn’t exist, which, you know, is a fine theoretical premise. But in the real world, what we find is that sometimes it makes sense for the government or whatever the overarching entity or society to float businesses in times of financial need, because it’s better for from a societal perspective. It will be so inconvenient for that business to go under completely, that you need to float them. And so, you know, it makes sense to bail out the airlines during, you know, during the pandemic, when nobody’s flying. And so what, you know, we sent billions of taxpayer dollars to Southwest. So, you know, keep everybody you know, keep your, your inventory stable, you know, keep everybody on the payroll. So we don’t have this massive, you know, void that needs to be filled, but it’ll cost more than the nets to, to fill, once society gets back up and running again. And instead of actually taking care of their workers in their infrastructure, the executives pocketed that money and gave themselves bonuses, and did a bunch of stock buybacks. And now that society is back it up, up and running, labor is getting crunched, and the infrastructure is collapsing. Not just in the airlines, but in the railroads and in healthcare and like naming industry. And this is what’s happening in micro in baseball is that Major League Baseball through revenue sharing is the de facto government. They’re saying, okay, you know, if the Pirates aren’t rich enough to compete with the Mets, that doesn’t mean they should go out of business, or they should become irrelevant, or they should become like the Washington Generals just like an automatic schedule when for, for the rich teams. It’s good, it’s good for the sport. And it’ll be good for the rich teams in the long term if they have credible competition to play against. So let’s take a little bit of the rich, rich teams money, and let’s give it to the poor team so they can compete. And instead of using that money to compete, certain poor teams are pocketing it. And this is an area where the union has a huge bug up, bug up its ass about it and they should. And a lot of the rich teams, you know, like the executives and the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets, the revenue sharing pairs are like there’s like, this is not, we’re not, we’re not paying this money so that Bob Nutting can go remodel his bathrooms. We’re paying this money so that the sport can be better. So we can get this money back in the long term because more people tune in to watch the games or buy tickets. And so this is like an odd coalition of ownership of like a section of ownership and labor that really wants this rectified. And I’m not really sure why the league hasn’t done this. Like hasn’t really put the screws to the teams that are not allocating, you know, their revenue sharing money to actually improving the onfield product, ’cause, like, it’s good for the sport. And, you know, this is a scenario in which like, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for teams that run like $50 million payrolls. Like there is a financial disparity that puts them at a disadvantage. And that’s not why they’re payrolls of $50 million. And that’s not why, that’s not why they’re losing 105 games a year and drawing 8000 fans a, a game. It you know, that’s not why you can’t every time you talk to a Pirates fan, well, every time you talk to a Pirates fan who’s not like a complete asshole about the Steelers and Penguins. They, they sound like they’re ready to jump off a bridge and there are plenty of bridges to choose from in Pittsburgh, it’s not a–
BOBBY: Sets the whole thing.
MIKE: –it’s not a sustainable situation.
BOBBY: [53:46] for three bridges, so many bridges.
MIKE: And so like the system is not working, its, the system is being taken advantage of by bad actors. And this is something that ownership like the MLP- MLBPA can continue to file grievances about this but ownership needs to keep its own house in order.
BOBBY: I have a theory about this.
MIKE: Okay.
BOBBY: My theory is that you’re right about the Mets, you’re right about the Yankees, you’re right about the Dodgers. The top spending teams who, you know, get upset that, the top payers who are paying the most amount of money because they are making the most amount of revenue. Get upset about the A’s, the Orioles, the Rays, the less of the Rays because they actually do try to compete in some ways annoying as hell as they are. You know, the, the Pirates–
MIKE: The Rays always a unique situation.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. We should leave them out of this conversation. The, the Reds recently in the last couple of years, just being a team that sells all their players and cashes revenue sharing checks. Now, I think that that is true, but I think that the middle 15 teams are happy that those teams are not spending any more money. Because that means that they don’t have to outspend those teams by a lot. Like I think the Seattle Mariners are fucking pumped that the, that the A’s are spending $54 million in payroll. Because then they get to say we’re spending three times as much as the A’s. Which is still not enough money if you’re the Seattle Mariners trying to capitalize on this window of young talent, and stars that you could be bringing in to actually try to win a World Series. As opposed to just being happy that you made the playoffs for the first time in 20 years last year. Like, I think that the Cubs are happy about those things. I think that the White Sox are happy about those things. The Giants are happy.
MIKE: I don’t think Jerry Reinsdorf is happy about anything–
BOBBY: Well–
MIKE: I don’t think that, I don’t think he’s been happy since 1984.
BOBBY: For the last few years, the Rangers have been happy about this. The Astros, who are a big fucking big market team, that wins a lot. But they don’t actually have to spend that much because they happen to be really smart about a few things. And ahead of the curve on a few things. I think all those teams are making up enough of the ownership pool, that they’re not ever really going to fix this on their own. They’re those, those three guys at the top of the league, who own these teams, the Steve Cohens of the world, the Steinbrenners of the world, who’ve been whining about this for decades. They don’t have enough pole, like they, they, they are not Jerry Jones, they are not these NFL owners who can bend the league to their will just from their cult of personality. Because that’s the way the league has always run. Like, there. There is enough, like collective action from these owners as funny as it is to say it like that. That I don’t think any one [56:15]–
MIKE: Well, I don’t think it’s funny to say like that.
BOBBY: –for owners can really change the status quo when it comes to this. Because it is about the whole cabal, not just a couple of the owners. And I think that that is why Steve Cohen is an interesting figure because I think the other 29 owners kind of hate him.
MIKE: Yeah. And that’s, I mean, it’s hard to- it’s not weird to talk about collective action because nobody understands class solidarity, like billion acres.
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: And, and I think there is like a philosophical objection on the owners part to prevent anybody from making more profit. And when it comes down to it, like this is something that, I think you’re exactly right, that the owners that there was a middle class of owners were like, I don’t have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun Bob Castellini. And–
BOBBY: And he’s got to set the best [57:01]–
MIKE: –whichever [57:01]–
BOBBY: –over the shoulder way and back.
MIKE: –you see the current Castellini I forget which, you know–
BOBBY: Cast- Bob Castellini is the owner, the principal owner, but I don’t think it’s the control person anymore because he’s old.
MIKE: No, he’s not the, he’s not the son. I forget his first name is.
BOBBY: Phil is the son.
ALEX: Son is Phil, yeah.
MIKE: Phil Castellini, yeah, whichever like, being guy is shooting off his mouth on talk radio.
His got, carrots, and lettuce, and mushrooms, porcine, vegetable King Bob Castellini.
BOBBY: That’s Phil.
MIKE: Yeah, so I mean, it’s, it’s conven- I agree that, and you make a good point that like, it’s convenient for the middle class teams that want to spend $130 million on payroll and win 86 games. That being guy, it’s out here, being such a big disgrace that, that they don’t get attention when they’re not spending up to snuff. And, you know, a lot of these guys like, what they, you know, I, I joked before we’re going on, like, regarding Steve Cohen, you don’t have to hand it to him. But it is funny to like, watch him play by the letter of the law and half 29 other owners just like that’s not how it’s supposed to go. This guy is ruining our good thing, like, it’s, I’ll, I’ll admit to taking no small measure of satisfaction for that.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting, because I, I feel like that only like gets you so far, right? That idea of like the middle class of teams. Especially when baseball is not even incentivizing baseball, that the corporation, so to speak. Is not really incentivizing, winning at this point, right? You know, they’ve expanded playoffs and that sort of thing. And so, at this point, if you’re the, if you’re in that middle class, yeah, you only have to outrun Phil Castellini. And you don’t even have to improve that much, right? You can take a step, step back and still be in a decent enough space, right? I, I just, I don’t know, like, like, when do we get to a point where it’s just not a sustainable ecosystem anymore? For like that middle 15–
BOBBY: Never.
ALEX: –group to like, just kind of float along.
MIKE: Yeah, well, what is–
BOBBY: The whole point–
MIKE: –not a middle 15? Yeah, if it’s, you know, what if it’s not a middle 15 If it’s like a middle seven, I think, you know, you mentioned the expanded playoffs and I didn’t think about this, but I wonder if that’s a structural change. That changes the incentive, you know, the [59:35]. Like we just watch, you know, the Phillies print money, like what, what that playoff run that they wouldn’t have gotten last year, has done for the trajectory of that franchise, you know, John Middleton who you know, I think it’s generally what you want an owner to be is, you know, someone who writes the checks and gets out of the way.
BOBBY: Yeah. That’s given millions and millions of people lung cancer, right, yeah.
MIKE: Yep. I mean, I hate to say this, there are worse ways that you can accumulate billions of dollars can we’ve seen, you know. A lot of those guys own baseball teams. I’ll tell you what, lung cancer is not as bad as the 2015-16 Phillies, I’ll say that right now.
BOBBY: Put it on the poster!
MIKE: I’ve lost my train of thought now. But like those guys, like Phil just pay their, you know, a couple million dollars in tax penalties and, and you know, and they’re making more money and it’s just in a way. You know, they hate any kind of tax, but they live with it. And, but so, oh, but you know, now there’s value to finishing first, you know, first in the league as opposed to 30. You know, there’s value to finishing 7, like 86 wins means something now as opposed to 80 and like that’s, that’s why you spend $10 million a year on not 10, it was like eight and a half on, nine and a half on Drew Smiley. You know why you go out and, and you know, sign David Robertson. Like, why he’s getting–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –the kind of money that like you can make the difference between making the playoffs and not for more teams that he could have a couple years ago. So I, you know, as much as I ev- you know, it’s, it’s funny every time they change a playoff system, I hate it, but it makes baseball more entertaining. Like if so, maybe I’m just not the person to, to talk, you know, talk to when it comes to, to playoffs. But I do like that might be the structural change that is, that is spurred a lot of this.
BOBBY: Yeah, I do think my main issue is that I look at the bottom of the league as being more of an anchor than the top of the league as being a you know, a rocket booster or whatever that, however that works in this metaphor. Like the, the Mets are not dragging up the rest of the teams in the same way that the A’s being at 54 allows the bottom 10 teams to be close to that. And you know, the A’s are taking a lot of heat, that the A’s are taking a lot of heat, but the Orioles who are supposedly in fucking warp speed mode are only $10 million above them. So let’s get fucking serious here. Like that’s not a small market. That’s a team that’s been around for 100 years.
MIKE: Well it’s a–
BOBBY: Legit fan ba–
MIKE: –small market but it’s not–
BOBBY: Yeah, but a legit fan base that sells out Camden Yards one of the most beautiful parks in all of baseball history. Like they talk about that all the time. Like where, what, where, where’s all that money going?
ALEX: That you to the, to the Angelo’s family’s lawsuits.
MIKE: Yeah, I mean, literally.
ALEX: So, so like–
MIKE: So how many te- like let’s be real, how, what let’s count. Like how many teams is it that are like actually dragging, dragging the bottom? It’s the A’s, the Pirates, the Reds. The Orioles even though they were good last year, or if you want to count the, the Rays and you know it’s a special case. I don’t know what the [1:02:51]. I don’t think it’s like a bottom 10, I think it’s like a bottom 5 or 6. And everybody else is at least like made a head fake toward trying it even the Rockies who suck every year. They don’t suck every year because they’re not trying, they suck every year because they’re run by weirdos.
BOBBY: Yeah, that’s exactly right. But–
MIKE: And honestly, like if there’s one thing that, that, that I dislike about the like the Sabermetrics revolution is like teams that suck because they’re run by weirdos who become so rare, it’s refreshing to still have one.
BOBBY: But what’s your definition of not trying, though? Like what, is, is what the Brewers are doing trying? They’re under–
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: –one twe- they’re under $120 million. Like what, it’s so hard to for me to really trust what is the number where like a mid market team is trying. Because we don’t have the truth about any of their books. Like we don’t have the truth about any of this stuff. And so–
MIKE: So I–
BOBBY: –there’s no such thing as a small market team like the Padres are exposing all of these people.
MIKE: And you think, so you think that I’m more acceleration? More acceleration than to you, and you’re talking like that every team needs to be running $150 pair. Yeah, like it’s [1:03:54]–
BOBBY: It’s 2022!
MIKE: –[1:03:54]
BOBBY: It’s 2022, like there’s not, there’s no reason that payroll should not be rising commensurate with re- rising revenues, for each of these pips, and they’re not!
MIKE: Kind of make that argument was before the last CBA the, the luxury tax to the low 230s.
BOBBY: Newsflash–
ALEX: [1:04:12]
BOBBY: –argument we try tried.
MIKE: Yeah. And you lost, we lost, that ship has sailed.
BOBBY: God dammit!
MIKE: Talk about like, literally not, you know, not trying to put a competitive team on the field. Like, if, if I’m just looking at this from the perspective of a fan. I cared less about how much they’re spending. Like I would rather be a fan of the Rays than the Rockies right now. Even though the Rockies are spending more money. Like if you’re finding a way to what, whatever ownership does, if you’re finding a way to be competitive to be relevant to play meaningful baseball in the second half of the season, like it, maybe not every year, but if you’re in a rebuild, the net rebuild needs to be going somewhere as opposed to, you know, what the Pirates are doing for instance, and–
BOBBY: Yes.
MIKE: –sorry Pirates.
BOBBY: But that’s the state of fandom in baseball. That’s not the State of Labor in Baseball. You know, like that–
MIKE: I guess that’s true.
BOBBY: –what the Rays are doing is maybe good for their fans? It’s better than–
MIKE: No!
BOBBY: –they were.
MIKE: I mean, what the Rays are doing, it’s not good for them.
BOBBY: No, it’s not. It’s better than what the Pirates are doing for their fans, but it’s not good for labor. It’s not good for the health of the game, I don’t think so.
MIKE: No, but I can live with if it’s, I don’t know, if your, if your argument is the anchor teams or anybody who’s not up against the luxury tax, then–
BOBBY: That’s not what my argument is.
MIKE: Fine!
BOBBY: These teams are less than half of the luxury tax. These teams are spending less than half of the luxury tax. That’s not, you’re dragging it down if you’re spending less.
MIKE: The first bit the players for free agents in the past five years, they came within what like two games making the playoffs last year? Like–
BOBBY: Wait.
MIKE: –their making win now and lose.
BOBBY: Which, which free agents for the Brewers, big players for?
MIKE: They sign- I mean, this was during the, the capital strike. But like they signed Lorenzo Cain, they sign Yasmani Grondal. Like they were actually, they were acting like a not a big market team, but a fairly big market team when nobody else was. I don’t, like when I look at teams that are, that aren’t the problem, the Brewers are not the problem. The Brewers are actually feeling competitive team.
BOBBY: Yes.
MIKE: They’re just signing Christian Yelich to, keeping Christian Yelich round, they probably regret doing that at this point. Like they’re not trading Corbin Burnes the instant he hits free, he hits, hits arbitration.
BOBBY: Although if they would like to do that, I, I will take him in Queens. That’s fine.
MIKE: Yeah, I’m sure you would. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Because if the, because if the Brewers–
BOBBY: I can, can I?
MIKE: –Brewers are trying, then you can’t just, you know, expropriate Corbin Burnes, you can’t use eminent domain it.
BOBBY: Alex, are the Brewers a problem? Yes or no.
ALEX: I’m an A’s fan, I have no grounds to stand on calling any team a problem.
MIKE: Your not your team, Alex! God dammit!
ALEX: Well, 26–
MIKE: You don’t have to abdicate your own moral judgment just to support whatever your team is doing.
ALEX: Oh, God I know. Yeah, but 26 years of being a baseball fan. This has told me otherwise. So I mean, so then, as the answer, just get better owner? Like, get more Steve Cohen’s in here and continue cycling out that like–
MIKE: No, the answer is [1:07:14] business.
ALEX: –bottom tier, ’cause–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
MIKE: Like, I can live with a big middle class. And if there’s all, if like, oh, Jesus, if like 15, this is so bleak. But if 15% of the league is just non participants, that’s better than it was a couple years ago. And it’s, and it’s lower than the percentage of that are like actually, in some form or other, you know, the Braves are going out and running a $300 million payroll, but they’re allocating big financial resources. And they’re winning 100 games a year. And so, like I, I have a hard time critiquing that on anything other than pitch forkie torchy grabs, you know. Like I, so, yeah, I think this is, this is sustainable until this group of owners decides to back out of it. And that–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –could happen at any moment.
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: And I acknowledge that.
BOBBY: Yeah, I, I completely agree. And that I think that that is a good segue into our final list topic here, which is sort of the dichotomy between the two NL East teams, the top two finishing NL East teams last year, the Mets and the Braves. Where, you know, you have Steve Cohen who’s coming in, he’s spending a lot in free agency. He’s committing $100 million more to the payroll than the, than the next closest team. Like, we have the sort of fear mongering old media types are saying that you shouldn’t be able to buy your way to a championship. And what the Braves are doing is, quote, unquote, “the right way”. But from a, from a State of Labor in Baseball perspective, I think that what Atlanta is doing is, it’s kind of alarming? Like every individual move seems fair, right? Like, there’s a reason that every single player agreed to the contract to buy out their arbitration years. And to get a discounted rate for their first couple years of free agency, if everything goes right. Like that level of security is good to have. But when I look at what Atlanta is doing, they’re providing a blueprint for a lot of these teams in the middle that we’re talking about, to try to leverage the suppressed wages of pre-arb and arbitration players into getting the first few years of free agency for cheaper than if they actually made it to free agency at a younger age. And so I, I wonder what you think about that in terms of a blueprint for teams to follow, or whether or not Atlanta is more of an aberration leaguewide.
ALEX: I just want to say, I, I take the A’s following that blueprint.
MIKE: Yeah. I mean–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Every, everyday.
MIKE: –that’s the main thing, righ?. Yeah, that’s what, that’s what every mid market team tries to do. They’re just not as good at developing talent as the Braves. And I’d say, here’s the other thing like the Braves are using structural factors in their favor to squeeze to prevent labor from producing or from receiving the full, you know, the fullest value of its production. I don’t think that’s unusual, I don’t think it’s alarming. I think like, you would have to be surprising in order to be alarming. That’s just sort of how it works. And obviously, it shouldn’t work that way. But, you know, that’s a longer conversation. That’s not a, you know, State of Labor in Baseball conversation, that’s podcasts that we probably shouldn’t record or air. But a lot of these individual deals like, you know, the Reilly deal, the Olson deal, you know, it doesn’t have risk. But like, if I were Olsen, Riley and I got offered 10 years and 212 million at that point in my career, I’d bite your hand off for that.
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: And you know, you can look at–
BOBBY: Those two, I think those two are maybe a little bit different because of how exceptional they were as players. But like, the rest of the roster being like majority, arbitration bought out players trading for guys who, you know, other teams are not going to extend. Like they are, they have their fingers on the scale of every single leverage of every single imbalance in, in the baseball system in a way that is like, if it wasn’t so fucked up, I would almost be impressed, you know?
MIKE: Yeah, I don’t really have a strong moral stance on this, you know, as, as like a collective team building approach. I think they’re, you know, using the structural level, levers that are in their favor to, you know, to reduce value, you know, the value that’s given to, to their individual players. Like, obviously, that’s not morally righteous, but nothing that any owner has done in the past. All right, oh, the entire history of baseball is morally righteous. So what I’ll say is that you can, I can see the argument from, like, almost all these guys, except for the ones that that I would take exception to the contracts, the Murphy contract that just got signed. Like, the and the Acuña and all these ones. And I think like, where some of this gets a little achy is not from ownerships perspective. Because they’re just laying out you know, this is every extension conversation that gets had with every player on every team, regardless of revenue. But where I saw this brought up with the Murphy contract, and it’s definitely true with the all these contract, is that, like, there’s a conflict when they’re tar- they might be targeting players with who have agents without a lot of clients. One payday where like the one Ozzie Albies payday can, can really change the agency, even though it’s not the best. I mean, that was just an absolute travesty. But even like, the Murphy deal, you know, it’s still a lot of money for a catcher’s bat hit 30. And you know, that Michael Harris and Spencer Strider, they could end up being severely underpaid, but those are players with a huge amount of risk in their profile. So I can understand why they take that, like, every deal makes sense, individually, and it just adds up to I don’t know, if the Braves are, you know, offering, you know, just enough. You see, one thing that we see with a, with a lot of these extension negotiations with like, the really the anchor teams that we were talking about is it’s just we tried and you know, we offer–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –this is not–
BOBBY: It’s a formality.
MIKE: Yeah. Like, oh, you know, we offered Bryan Reynolds $30 million over eight years, and he didn’t take it that greedy bastard. But you know, we’re doing everything we can. Like the Braves are actually offering significant money very early in the careers of some very high risk play- players. And I think that they’re going to come out ahead on, on most of these deals, if not all of them. But like, if you’re Michael Harris, your first year career, 21 years old, like we’re guaranteeing you $72 million. Like, it’s hard to say no to that, that, you know, that far in the future. And, you know, I, I would have a hard time going to Michael Harris on say turn down that contract. Knowing what I know about him as a player. Like he could be, you could end up leaving $400 million on the table because of that or something. But like, this is something, this has changed your life money, right now, at the very beginning of your career, when you’re still hugely underpaid, where there’s still a risk of you suffering catastrophic injury and walking away with nothing. And Strider, too, you know, even more so because he’s a pitcher. And because he’s, you know, had some injury concerns. I, you know, I don’t think that that’s exploitive, particularly, I don’t think it’s, it’s exploitive enough to be alarmed by it within the context of baseball, it’s just sort of how the game works. And it’s why, you know, the real problem is, this is an outgrowth of, not just arbitration, but the draft. You know, the arbitration free agency needs to get moved up. That’s what allows stuff like this to happen. I don’t necessarily blame the Braves for operating within this system. Because the reason that, you know, one of the reasons that this is going- you know, their entire team is locked up through 20, whatever, is that they built a really good team that’s worth locking up. I think, that’s worth celebrating. They’re also going to run about a $200 million payroll this year, you know, 236 [1:14:48], I think our roster resource as their luxury tax estimate at $239 million. So, you know, out of the things to get up in arms about, I don’t think it’s the right way. And certainly I don’t think this is what the Braves ought to be spending based on what we know about Liberty Media’s finances. But it’s not, if this is the blueprint, if this is the thing that we’re complaining about, I think the game is in an okay place, even from a labor, labor perspective, it can be a lot worse.
ALEX: I have to imagine it’s pretty attractive to players as well, knowing, Hey, there’s their front office who is interested in actually building a long term good contender, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And is interested in giving the players who are part of that team money to do it and stick around. Like if I’m Sean Murphy and I just got traded at the Braves, this is–
MIKE: Oh, yeah.
ALEX: –this is, this is where I want to, I want to be for the next seven years.
MIKE: And that guy’s played for, I mean, he played for his right state teams, I don’t know. We’re gonna go back to Sean Murphy’s college career like he’s played for good teams before. But like he’s lived that made major life his entire life.
ALEX: Yeah.
MIKE: And like, and that I think about labors, particularly once you get into $73 million guaranteed territory is that there are other like quality of life factors apart from money. Like maybe it is worth Sean- you know, to Sean Murphy, leaving $40 million on the table to know that he’s gonna play for a contender, a team that’s going to be contented for the next five years. As opposed to, you know, just slogging it out with that miserable last team, that miserable stadium. And then taking his chances on the free agent market. Like maybe that peace of mind, maybe that quality, you know, that increase in, can we see, yeah, we see players do this explicitly all the time. You know, take less money, because they want to live in a certain place, and they want to play with certain people or they want to be in a certain situation. You know, I think that sometimes is as like, quote unquote, “pro labor analysts”. Like we do miss that part of the puzzle by, by boiling it down to just dollars. And ge- like in a general perspective, yes, that is what matters. But on a case by case basis, individual players are going to want different things. And you know, I, do I think Sean Murphy signed a bad contract? Yeah. But I, you know, I can see the argument from, from his perspective. Like, he’s going to be on a winning team for the bulk of, for the rest of his prime. You know, for the entire rest of the time, he’s going to be relevant as baseball player, the Braves are probably going to be good. And, you know, how much is that worth to, to a competitive athlete in dollars and cents? Like–
ALEX: I hear the Cobb County Schools are very good. It’s very niciest–
MIKE: No, that was fucking stock.
ALEX: –time of the year.
MIKE: Now, my wife’s from Cobb County, she went to private school.
ALEX: Oh, God.
MIKE: Because the Cobb County Schools are bulshit.
BOBBY: Consumer rant, we got, we got it.
ALEX: I just assumed a wealthy suburb, but, all right.
MIKE: Now–
BOBBY: Nah, that’s not always the case.
MIKE: –they don’t invest on [1:17:47].
BOBBY: Come on, Alex, Southern California, Southern California. I guess, no, that’s why I said, if you look at every individual case.
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah, it’s not. It’s not as exploitative as some other things that are going on in the sport, of course. But when I look at what the Braves are doing, I look at them in a, in a calculated but aboveboard more than fair way by the standards of, of Major League Baseball, looking around and saying we’re gonna leverage every single possible thing that we can do. And I look at other teams, and they don’t leverage it quite as much, you know, you know, who’s not squeezing players quite as much as the Braves? The Padres, the Yankees, the Mets, you know, like, there are other teams who are not doing that. And that’s fine, that’s their prerogative. They’re following the letter of the law, as far as we know, they’re not blackmailing any of these players into taking these contracts, as far as we know, as much as we like to make jokes about that on Mets Twitter. But if I, if there were eight teams that were as smart as the Braves and doing it this way, I think it would be an issue big enough that the PA should be like, Wait, we need to make structural changes to the system. Because then you start to say there’s a large enough sample, that we are suppressing the entire salaries of the league by letting, you know, this percentage of players sign into agreements like this that are making it harder for other players to negotiate against those numbers that they’re putting into the salary pools.
MIKE: And I think that is something that the Players Association should make it’s rank and file members, cognizant. And you know, you occasionally hear about somebody like Scherzer, J. T. Realmuto being like, I want to hit free agency or Mookie Betts, you know–
BOBBY: Or Soto.
MIKE: –or Soto, you like, I want to hit free agency and I want to reset the market. I owe it to the other players to–
BOBBY: And Judge, yeah.
MIKE: –to try to, you know, try to reset the salary structure. But what I think it’s important to when we talk about exploitation and structural lovers, like these are all, like the players that they’re, that they’re extending, particularly the, you know, maybe not Harris and Strider but like guys like Murphy and Olson. You know, I almost called Austin Riley, Adam Duvall. But, like these are adults–
BOBBY: I wish he was as bad as Adam Duvall. I wish he that much swing and miss still.
MIKE: You know, these are adults well into their career. And everybody knows, this is what the Braves are about. Everybody knows what’s–
BOBBY: Yes.
MIKE: –happening. And I think even with the structural factors working against these players, they’re all going into this with, you know, they’re all signing these contracts with their eyes open. And–
BOBBY: And they clearly fucking love playing there. Like, for whatever–
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: –reason, they like being in Atlanta Braves. I can’t–
MIKE: So if they’re–
BOBBY: –understand it, but they like it, you know.
MIKE: If they’re happy, then more power to them. And, you know, if this was actually, I think, maybe this is doing something to the, you know, the overall salary structure in the game. But, you know, these guys are getting paid, they’re winning. And, you know, they’re, like I said, they’re, they know what they’re signing up for. And that’s why, you know, I have a hard time dealing with it, you know, feeling about this, on the, the same level is service time manipulation, or the draft or, or sign this extension, or we won’t call you up the way the White Sox have been doing. That’s, you know, that’s far more alarming to me.
BOBBY: Yeah, I think this is a system of all, or this is a symptom of all of those things that you just laid out. Like, and, and–
MIKE: Sure.
BOBBY: –that’s why I flag it and that’s–
MIKE: And that’s–
BOBBY: –why I want–
MIKE: –that’s why to ask more to exist.
BOBBY: –talk about it instead of Labor in Baseball, exactly.
MIKE: Yeah. I agree. Like, this is the, this is the culmination of, like, several different factors coalescing together into a whirlpool. But, you know, these are decisions made by individual actors. And I think, you know, it’s–
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: –something that PA ought to take up and, you know, remind agents of, and remind players of that like, you know, if you sign a, a pre-arb deal just be aware, these are the knock on effects that you have. And I think that, and by the way, like I think that what says to me that I the you and I don’t understand the, the thought process behind this from a player perspective is I was thinking about this with the, the Albies extension is guys who are established big leaders. Even if they’re pre-arb, they don’t appreciate how much money they have coming to them, even if they don’t produce, even if they get hurt. Just like rolling over the the minimum salary, rolling over, you know, a couple decent arbitration seasons. Like you can, the absolute worst case scenario, if you get into the big leagues and establish yourself is not you walk away penniless. It’s you walk away with a couple million dollars, you know. And I think that the individual players are really risk averse when it comes to signing these deals. But yeah, it’s easy for me to say because I’m not the person who’s being offered here, here $73 million guaranteed.
BOBBY: Yeah.
MIKE: You know, your, your children are going to have live in servants for their entire lives.
BOBBY: Well, your podcast appearance fee for Tipping Pitches this year was only, was only $3 million, so–
MIKE: Oh, I get it, I get an honorarium now?
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly.
MIKE: Like really taken off.
BOBBY: The Patreon, baby.
MIKE: Talk about you guys like exploiting labor I’m not making jack shit out of this. Risking my reputation spending–
BOBBY: 80 minutes later.
MIKE: –yeah, like it could be the weekend for me now. And here I am shooting the show with you guys for, you know, I’m not being compensated at all.
ALEX: Hey, man, you got to pay your dues. This is what you have to do to make–
MIKE: Yeah.
ALEX: –as a podcaster.
BOBBY: This is–
MIKE: I’m not–
BOBBY: –this is me getting my dues paid–
MIKE: Getting your–
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: –the hours. Ringer MLB show edits that I had to do. That’s [1:23:24]–
MIKE: You, you paid your dues on, on my show and now you’re out for revenge.
BOBBY: Alex, is there anything else on our checklist that we need to check off before we, we finally set Mike free into his weekend?
ALEX: I really don’t think so we wrote down Tony Clark extension but I that’s probably the, the least interesting extension that I think we could talk about.
MIKE: [1:23:43] already. He does not looking good. Gonna make that joke every time. So my consumer rant this year, if you have a ring doorbell your neighbors should have the legal right to tear it off your house and set it on fire.
BOBBY: So this is the next long lineage of very fervent and passion rants that Michael has given on the States of Labor in Baseball. The first one was about streaming and how streaming is a scam and we should go back to cable.
MIKE: Boycotting is a scam, yeah.
BOBBY: Cord, cord cutting is a scam, we should go back to cable. Do you remember what last year it was?
MIKE: Electric cars are a scam, right?
BOBBY: Oh, electric cars, yeah, ’cause they’re just gonna pump out software updates that they charge you for it. And they planned obsolescence is going to [1:24:24].
MIKE: Not only that, but it’s not actually like it’s not actually that green to, to dig, dig the raw materials for a car out of the living Earth, ship it to Detroit, put it together, put a lithium battery in it that you’re going to have to change every few years. And then offload it and then still do damage to, to infrastructure and so you’re still spending all this money that can be spent on buses, can be spent on trains on fixing potholes created by your 9000 pound Cadillac like lowercase E escalade. Because runs on it’s a plug in hybrid now and it still weighs more than World War 1 main battle tank. And–
BOBBY: So–
MIKE: –in that you’re offloading the cost of this quote unquote “Green Revolution” to consumers instead of actually turning it in what it should–
BOBBY: Yes.
MIKE: –be which is a sign of good.
BOBBY: Right.
MIKE: And it became, become a status symbol, something that rich liberals can use a stick that they can be poor people with kids it can afford, I was gonna say Tesla. But that should have sailed in the–
BOBBY: So I think–
MIKE: –like Ford Lightning or whatever.
BOBBY: –cord cutting is a scam you were slightly ahead of the curve on that. I think some people were already starting to share that opinion. I think electric vehicles are bullshit, you were pretty ahead on that one. And I think that you’ve been proven phenomenally right.
MIKE: I will continue to be vindicated until we all, until like the Mets have to go do their Semester at Sea because Citi Field is underwater.
BOBBY: I think that ring doorbells are, are horrible for society is already–
MIKE: Am I behind the curve on that?
BOBBY: –widely shared. Yeah, I think that a lot–
MIKE: Okay.
BOBBY: –of people have been, had been too not harm for a while. But I, I sympathize with your, with your take. I agree. Ring doorbells are, are total bullshit. I’m glad that my parents don’t have one. Though they do have an Amazon Alexa, which is like just as bad but.
ALEX: Yeah.
MIKE: It well, it’s not, I don’t know.
BOBBY: It’s not just as bad for society–
MIKE: I have different–
BOBBY: –but bad for surveillance purposes.
MIKE: Well, I’ve, this is like the argument you and I have been having the entire episode. Like I almost have a different visceral reaction to be, to being surveilled by the NSA than I do being surveilled by local police.
BOBBY: So your–
MIKE: Being surveilled by the NSA is not going to be a big deal for most people. But–
BOBBY: Right, like we were born into that like that, that is [1:26:38].
MIKE: [1:26:38] that put cup magnet on your house. You see what you like people like there’s that thing earlier this week about like, people like getting on the UPS guy for walking across the grass. How much more fucking suburban can you get? Like, just go like go lie down and die in your front yard because it’ll make your lawn be better. And that’s like, go become human fertilizer. It’s all your fucking people care about. Grass is a scam too. Did you know this?
BOBBY: Yeah, grass is definitely a scam.
ALEX: Yeah. Oh, 100%.
MIKE: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s, that’s been, that’s been known. Alex, do you want to supplement Mike’s consumer rants? Hashtag Mike’s consumer rants presented by Mike’s Hard Lemonade, no free ads.
ALEX: I it’s, it’s pretty hard. It’s I mean, it’s like, it’s like that first collective bargaining agreement, right? He’s kind of set the bar–
BOBBY: Extremely high.
ALEX: –pretty high.
BOBBY: Extremely high.
ALEX: For, for me to clear I feel like mine are all very, very sort of sort of milquetoast. I don’t, I use fireflex.
MIKE: Apparently–
ALEX: I have like, I don’t know.
MIKE: Apparently so it’s my rant this year. So like, coming in here doing free labor for you guys. You guys are complaining about. Like, that’s well not you, Alex, you’re without sin. Roberto over here.
BOBBY: You think I’m just gonna let you get off, like hunky dory, everything is good? Like, not give you a hard time about anything. Come on, that’s not the nature of our relationship.
ALEX: I, I do, I do appreciate that you came into the episode with the mindset that actually things are pretty good. And, and by the end–
MIKE: Obviously.
ALEX: –we got, we got there.
MIKE: Obviously, no we’re not. There’s no way.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: Michael Baumann, it’s always a pleasure. It’s great to see you. I hope you have a tremendous 2023. You’re not invited back onto the podcast until 2024, just kidding. You can come on whenever you would like.
MIKE: We’re gonna come on for the National League Division Series between the Mets and the Phillies.
BOBBY: Please don’t put that energy into the world, for the love of God. I’m a fragile man who can only take so much. Where can people find your work now that you have transferred jobs?
MIKE: Yeah, you can still follow me on Twitter, @Michael aumann. You can read me now at fangraphs.com We’re, we’re doing all sorts of exciting baseball writing. While I was on the podcast, I got a message from my new editor Meg Rowley. The extremely sensitive and talented and hardworking Meg Rowley sent me a message to the effect of you can’t say that about Eric Hosmer. We can’t print that. So well, you know, I’ll have an Eric Hosmer signing reaction. Rafael Devers is the last thing I wrote about. Now, we’re going to have some, some college baseball features hopefully in the weeks to come before college baseball kicks off next month. So yeah, we’re doing exciting work there.
BOBBY: FanGraphs–
ALEX: I just wanna, I just want to say, this is a space where you can say whatever you want about Eric Carl- Hosmer–
MIKE: No, she was right.
ALEX: –no hold, no hold part.
MIKE: Here’s, here’s the thing about Meg telling me we can’t publish that is like she’s almost always right. Like–
BOBBY: Yeah. If there’s–
ALEX: Yeah, she’s so good.
BOBBY: –one thing I’ve learned about Meg, if that she’s right 98% of the time, uncommonly right amount of time. Thank you so much FanGraphs, always worth your subscription dollars. Best, best–
MIKE: Oh, yes, subscribe, too.
BOBBY: –baseball website on the internet.
MIKE: I now remind people to do that.
BOBBY: Come on, I’m doing your job for you.
MIKE: I know.
BOBBY: It was great having you on, thank you, honestly, for all this time. This was, this was a great State of Labor in Baseball. I think people will be very satisfied with it.
MIKE: I’ll come up with a better consumer rant for next year. I’ll put that on my–
BOBBY: You have a whole year, a whole year.
MIKE: Oh, yeah. I got 12 months to think this out.
[1:29:57]
[Music Transition]
BOBBY: Alright, thank you to Mike. Thank you to you, Alex. Just cuz, you know, I just like, I like doing this with you. So thanks for hanging on the pod. I do have–
ALEX: And [1:30:20] having me over.
BOBBY: I do have a consumer rant that I thought of in the time since we recorded with Mike that was a few days ago now. Digital media is a fucking sham. It’s not just, it’s not just cord cutting, like he was right about cord cutting, I’m sort of like, advancing this take in a way that like a Pokemon, you know, grows into–
ALEX: Where evolve, yeah.
BOBBY: –or evolves into a larger Pokemon. Like the fact that I don’t actually own a physical copy of any of the movies that I have, or any of the video games that I have. I know, I’m not the first person to share this, far from it, honestly.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I can think of like Bodega Boys episodes from 2017 where Desus was like, you should own physical media.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s all gonna get taken away from you one day. But now I’m like, do I really own FIFA? Or if I just licensed the right to play FIFA with you? And if the EA Sports company, or the PlayStation company, Sony decided that they didn’t want me to play FIFA anymore because they didn’t like me. They could just take it away. It’s bad.
ALEX: I wouldn’t 100% agree.
BOBBY: Thank you.
ALEX: I mean, I mean, I have to say, not the most cutting edge. I feel like, I feel like generally speaking, right? We’re having greater awareness of the fact that we don’t actually own any parts of our, our lives–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –anymore.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: But we should talk about it more.
BOBBY: Well, I think that we just need to apply it more places. Like we don’t own, I don’t own anything.
ALEX: I literally don’t own anything- right now, I don’t own my degree. I don’t own my apartment.
BOBBY: I don’t own my car, the bank owns my car. I’m licensing my car from the bank right now. You know, I own like, these books that I’m pointing at right now–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –in the studio. These microphones? I own them.
ALEX: Yeah, you do.
BOBBY: But you know what? The Digital Archives of Tipping Pitches, I don’t own, they’re just on the internet.
ALEX: Yeah, when, when are we gonna rerecord on masters?
BOBBY: I mean, we own the copyright of them, but I don’t physically have the episodes that we’ve put years and years of our lives into. It puts me on a spiral every time I try to think about this.
ALEX: What, so when you think about owning–
BOBBY: Burning them onto a CD.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: And putting them in my car after I finished paying it off, because then I will own the car too.
ALEX: I mean–
BOBBY: You can’t take it away from me.
ALEX: –I mean, why do CDs at this point go all the way back? Do like some vinyl, you know?
BOBBY: Print Tipping Pitches on vinyl.
ALEX: Yeah. Or like–
BOBBY: See, I don’t–
ALEX: –you know, those little like wax like music players from like–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –1800s where the steps us–
BOBBY: I’d rather do cassette tapes on.
ALEX: Because that’s me.
BOBBY: I think that that feels more in line with what podcasts are.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know, like this ephemeral thing but not CDs is more for like playlists like music. You burn a CD for your friend whatever. Like I have vivid memories of my bad handwriting on my Linkin Park copy of MIDI Aura that I like ripped from my friends.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t want to do vinyl though. Because I don’t think I would like what I would hear as like the mixing engineer–
ALEX: The clarity will be a little too good.
BOBBY: –this podcast with the clarity a bit too much, yeah. I maybe cut some corners here and there throughout the years that I wouldn’t want to hear, printed onto vinyl. Plus, like, that’d have to be so many vinyl–
ALEX: That would be a lot of, a lot of–
BOBBY: –two part episodes would really make me [1:33:41]. Right we’re onto the besides now. Oh, another Rob Manfred joke, I guess were gonna have to print another seven inch.
ALEX: That’d be good, we could release singles.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Right? Like–
BOBBY: Just one take.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Just the cold open in a single addition.
ALEX: Exactly. If you just want to hear the bits, we got that for you.
BOBBY: If you just wanna hear the voicemails. How about you, have you thought of any consumer rants since, since we wrapped with Mike?
ALEX: Well, the one that I’ve been thinking of, I guess i,s is along those same lines as Digital media, but it’s that we have, have passed the point of this creating ease of access to this sort of content.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Like the user interfaces of most say streaming apps, atrocious.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Are you trying to find something on Hulu? Better not.
BOBBY: Wait, what you could do is rewatch something that you’ve already watched on Hulu. That’s what they are good at recommending too.
ALEX: That, that is true.
BOBBY: Because you liked Fleishman Is in Trouble, maybe you want to watch Fleishman Is in Trouble.
ALEX: I just like these are like really small things. But they bugged me–
BOBBY: But they’re not, though.
ALEX: Like–
BOBBY: They’re not, ’cause it dominates so much of our lives.
ALEX: Like when you’re on, again, say, a streaming platform with a green sort of logo on it.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Not necessarily naming any single one. But, but say you’re on a show. And you’ve scrolled to the bottom of the, the seasons. You’re on this, you’re on season four out of four. You don’t you don’t see any of the other seasons on there. So like, I went to go watch a TV show the other day, I was like, they only have season four on here? Why is that? It’s because they’ve scrolled the rest of it outside of the screen.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I’m sorry. Like, I know this. This feels petty to me, but–
BOBBY: It’s not petty.
ALEX: –but we’ve just, we were supposed to streamline things, right? Like this, streaming was supposed to be the chosen one.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Bring balance to, to media, not destroy it.
BOBBY: I find Netflix to be one of the wor- opening Netflix when I don’t have an intention of what I’m going to open and search for, to be among the worst experiences of my days. When I open it up, and I’m just like, here’s 88 documentaries that were made in five hours.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know, I have no idea what the quality of any of these. Their recommendation algorithm is like, you’re an 88% match for this. I don’t know what that means.
ALEX: Yeah, but why?
BOBBY: I don’t, I don’t know what they’re basing that on. My watch history? Someth- I saw something the other day. I was a 60% match on Netflix for it. I had already watched it. I would argue I’m 100% match for it, I already watched it.
ALEX: Hey, man, that’s not how, how, how probabilities work, right? Your 60% match, you just happen to fall on that given day in that 60%.
BOBBY: The nerd got streaming, dude. The nerds got streaming in movies, they won. Just like–
ALEX: They did.
BOBBY: –they did baseball, they’re taking it away from us. This is exactly what’s going on right now. I can’t believe I’m doing this rant in the outro of this podcast. This is exactly what’s going on with fucking Babylon. All these people crushing Damien Chazelle movie because it’s making no money at the box office. And they like, all the critics being like, he tanked his whole career. No, no, no, he made a movie. It’s a good movie. It doesn’t matter how much money it made or lost because you are not the executive of the movie studio. Paramount. So let it go.
ALEX: You mean, are, so you’re saying it’s not our money?
BOBBY: That is what I’m supposed to have. Yep. Bringing my same like douchebag shitposting lefty energy to movie studio discourse.
ALEX: Jesus.
BOBBY: To box office discourse.
ALEX: My God.
BOBBY: Nobody needs or wants that.
ALEX: Wait, yeah. Wait. Oh, do you hear that? That’s the sound of people tuning out right now.
BOBBY: Tweeting at Manohla Dargis being like it’s not your money Manohla Dargis it’s not. Just, I just got, I have cinnamon in the brain, you know, I made a little box.
ALEX: Yeah, man. Yeah, you’re a big letterbox head now?
BOBBY: Yeah, man, and on letterbox.
ALEX: You got I think one review on there so far?
BOBBY: Two now.
ALEX: Two?!
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: What was the second?
BOBBY: Checked out, Emily the Criminal, just before you came over here.
ALEX: Wow!
BOBBY: Got me in the mood to do pod.
ALEX: [1:38:11] in work!
BOBBY: What the movie title of your life be called if they made a movie about Alex? Alex the what? Alex the A’s fan? Alex the sucker?
ALEX: It probably be an adaptation of the children’s book, Alexander and the terrible no good very bad day.
BOBBY: Just on repeat.
ALEX: That’s exactly.
BOBBY: It’s like Edge of Tomorrow except it’s you waking up at 11 be like, fuck do this work?
ALEX: Right, yes. Yeah, Groundhog Day, but just like fucking–
BOBBY: Boring tasks?
ALEX: –giving my, my body over to capitalism.
BOBBY: Yeah. Alright, it’s time to end the pod. Time to end the pod. Thank you everybody for listening. Thank you again to Mike for coming on and doing another State of Labor in Baseball. I already can’t wait to do next year’s. Thank you also to all the people who have been reaching out and sharing their baseball butterfly, butterfly effects. Whether that be in the form of a DM or the form of a tweet at us or a prompt with a hat tip towards us or a voicemail, all that stuff. We have been reading them. We have been listening to them in voicemail. Maybe we’ll do something with the voicemails or the emails the next round that we do this. We’ll have like a supplementary like listener submitted part of the episode. But those episodes got really, really good feedback. And it was a fun kind of detour to take with, with Grant and Janice, so again, thanks to them as well. And a final thank you, of course is an order to five members of our Alex Rodriguez VIP Club Tier for being you, for being part of that club. Those five members this week are Jake, Craig, Ben, Tristan, and Mike. Oh, and one final thing, Alex. If you’re listening this late in the episode, chances are you probably already know about Batting Around, which is our sort of sister pod, our friends over at Batting Around who have been on this podcast multiple times to do Dumbest Things of the Baseball Year. We’ve been on their show multiple times. They’re, they’re doing their 100th episode this week. 100th episode is a great opportunity to go and tune into their show. Were huge fans of theirs, so congrats to them, and go check them out. Okay, that’s everything at long last. Thanks, everybody for listening, and we’ll be back next week.
[1:40:31]
[Music]
[1:40:44]
[Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most, Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
Leave a comment