Alex and Bobby talk with Sami Khan and Michael Gassert, co-directors of “The Last Out,” a new documentary that follows three Cuban players in their journey to the major leagues, about how they went about making this film, how the focus of the project evolved as the filmmaking process went on, balancing the callousness of the international signing system with the humans at the center of the story, documenting the harrowing journey the players took, situating their stories in the broader political climate, and more.
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Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and, and, and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about? That’s amazing! That’s remarkable
BOBBY: Alex, we have a special podcast for the listeners this week. A wonderful conversation of the directors of The Last Out Michael Gassert and Sami Khan. You know, the reason that I’m not putting a cold up and on top of this is because we’re recording this weeks in advance, weeks in advance. And the reason for that–
ALEX: It’s not just because we decided to be prepared. We were kind of backed into this spot.
BOBBY: Yes. The reason for that is because as people are listening to this, I’m just galavanting around Italy, you know. I’m just having a great time. But we did not want to allow, we did not want to force the listeners of this wonderful podcast.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: You find folks who give us so much of your time, every week, listen to our dumb takes about everything from Major League Baseball to Taylor Swift. We did not want to let the podcast be go dark for all of you. So we talked to Sami Khan and Michael Gassert. The Last Out, I’ll just start by saying, it, it hit hard. I don’t know if everyone who’s listening to this got a chance to check out last week’s episode where I reminded folks to watch this documentary before listening to this interview. But if you haven’t watched the doc yet, I will just say it would be incredibly informative for you to watch the documentary before listening to this interview. Because we talked a lot about the specifics of how it was made and how they found the subjects and how they were able to get this kind of access and how they chose to make it. So it will be a much better experience for you I think if you listen to this, after you watch the documentary. You can find it wherever you get through wherever you get your movies. It’s available on many streaming platforms, we have the link in the description to the documentaries website where you can find all of that information. But yeah, before we go to our conversation with Michael and Sami, Alex, you were actually the one that brought this documentary to my attention. I don’t know, where did you actually, I don’t, never even ask you, where did you actually see this documentary?
ALEX: I think I saw it mentioned in Craig Calcaterra is wonderful Cup of Coffee newsletter, he dropped–
BOBBY: Oh.
ALEX: –a trailer earlier this year. And it obviously caught my attention ’cause, you know, the, the conversation surrounding the international player development system is something that’s really central to the economics of baseball.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And it’s also a really sort of thorny issue, in part because so much of this stuff happens behind closed doors.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: And so this documentary really caught my eye because it really did seem like it was kind of pulling the curtain back on the journey that a lot of these young players take and, and you know, this, this story obviously focuses from three players coming from Cuba. But, but players are, are fed through this international system throughout Latin America. And it’s, and it’s a perspective that, that felt really instructive to me, especially as you know, as you mentioned, we want to, we want to discuss this more this offseason.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And so, really getting that, that humanist perspective, I think on this was really key and they executed it really, really well. I mean, it’s a, it’s a harrowing story.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And it’s really impactful, unnecessary watch for anyone who’s, who’s even remotely interested in, in, in baseball or immigration.
BOBBY: Or not, yeah.
ALEX: And, you know, just kind of kind of the way that sports spreads its tentacles far beyond, you know, kind of what we think of as entertainment.
BOBBY: I know, the thing that, I think makes the documentary, as you describe, as you, as you call it, harrowing, which is a word that I use in our interview with, with Michael and Sami to is that it takes all of the parts of this system that are, for lack of a better phrase, put in the nut graph of converse of articles about the international free agent system. It takes all of those details, and it foregrounds them. It puts them, it puts you the viewer in direct conflict with the idea that baseball is not always a force for good is not always baseball and 21st century capitalism in the way that they interact with each other causes this trickle down of harrowing situations and you know, bad behavior from people in the international market. And leveraged positions that teams and scouts have over these young men who are trying to capitalize on their opportunity to sign a bonus, make it to an affiliated ball, give money back to their families in Cuba. And what was interesting about this documentary is that it focused specifically on Cuban players because of the trade embargo between the United States and Cuba. And, you know, the doc starts in the first couple minutes outlining why economically, these players have a harder time coming to the United States in playing and signing contracts with Major League Baseball than maybe countries like the Dominican Republic, which has a much more direct pipeline, or Puerto Rico, which is obviously a territory of the United States. So it’s incredibly interesting, incredibly detailed, you could keep pulling on the strings forever and ever and ever, and keep telling stories like this. But, you know, it felt important to me to before we talk and learn more about like what an international draft might look like, or what this means from a labor landscape or what monetarily unionization affords United States foreign players versus international players. Like, it’s important to actually understand what the current system is doing to individual human beings, and how hard it is for people to actually get signed and come play affiliated ball.
ALEX: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the most striking things about the documentary is, is seeing how isolating of an experience this is, right? And, and obviously, when players find success, the team’s reap the rewards of that success, right? When players don’t find success, or a team chooses not to sign them, it’s the players that are left to pick up the pieces. Oftentimes, they’re left in a country they don’t live in, and–
BOBBY: Yup.
ALEX: –they are forced to make some really tough decisions. And you’ll see all of that kind of laid out in the documentary. So, again, I highly recommend anyone watch this who’s interested. Whether you do or not, I think the conversation that we have with Michael and Sami is, is really instructive.
BOBBY: Yeah, you can tell that they are using some of the same worldviews that we share on this podcast to approach the storytelling and to approach their documentary filmmaking. And, you know, we know like we talk in nebulous and ambiguous terms about how leverage the system is towards the teams. But like, it really is just a win win for these teams. Like they could spend, you know, they put a few $100,000 in on the player, and it’s a long shot, and they turn into Yuli Gurriel. And then suddenly, you have like a multiple time All-Star. But if he doesn’t turn into Yuli Gurriel- Gurriel, all you lost was a couple $100,000. But for these players it’s like, so life or death, and so essential to their plan of immigrating to the United States, honestly. So, you know, people will, if you’ve watched this documentary, you will have seen how they portray that. I think that Sami and Michel provided a lot of important context and a lot of subtext to what their documentary is just showing. Because I think it’s, it’s a very straight telling of the story, it’s very verity. And they’re hardly in the documentary themselves at all. You can hear them ask a couple questions off screen, but it really is just like a very hemmed in close up view of these three players. So now that we’ve done a couple minutes of film criticism, I think we should bring in Michael and Sami. But before we do that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[8:15]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: Okay, we are now joined by Michael Gassert and Sami Khan, the directors of The Last Out, Mike, Sami, thank you guys so much for joining us.
MIKE: Thanks, Bobby, it’s a pleasure to be here, Alex.
BOBBY: We’re really excited to talk to you guys. You know, to get started, I wanted to ask sort of a procedural question. We talked a lot on this show about, you know, labor relations. We talked about the minor leagues a lot. But we’ve talked sort of nebulously about the international system for developing prospects. And, of course, I think a lot of mindful baseball fans know some of these things, but maybe don’t actively pay attention to some of these things that The Last Out focuses on. So I wanted to ask you guys, sort of like, what was the moment that you decided that you wanted to go this specifically in on the international system and Cuban baseball players specifically? And how long ago did that moment happen? And how long was it before you were able to actually start shooting and developing this documentary?
SAMI: Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah.
SAMI: Thanks for having us, Bobby and Alex, it’s, it’s great to be with you it’s in it’s important to look at this stuff. Because, you know, we have to understand what it takes for something to get to our TV screen. And understand why it takes a player, you know, to, to get to the major league. So really, for Mike and I, it started with that question, and we’re both huge baseball fans. He’s a Brewers fan, I’m a Blue Jays fan, you know, kind of long suffering to some degree. And, you know, I guess that suffering gives you time to mull over these questions, you know. Who is this Lourdes Gurriel Jr, that the Blue Jays have set their sight- their sights on? You know, actually, when we started it was, it was Adeiny Hechavarria was the guy that the Jays inside and everyone was talking about, about a decade ago. But then in 2014, you know, Mike and I started talking about, you know, what would it film that looked at the Cuban market? What would it be? How would you tell that story? And to be honest, for a long time, we didn’t know how it would, it would take shape. And, you know, we started filming in August, in November of 2000. It was November of 2014, was our first interview. We, we went up to interview, Ben Badler of Baseball America, you know, and one of the foremost experts on Cuban prospects. And for the first few months, we really searched around for, what this film would be, what the story would be and what our angle would be. And as it happened, after sort of months of convincing, we were able to secure an interview with Gustavo Dominguez, who is sort of one of the central characters of our film, instigates initiates the story. And he’s a Cuban American agent, who in the words of Michael Lewis, invented the market for Cuban baseball players in the 1990s. Got René Arocha, a deal with the, with the Cardinals, million dollar deal. And then basically, every Cuban national team guy went to Gus. So 2015, early 2015, we got Gus to grant us an interview. At the end of that interview, he told us he had this new group of Cuban ballplayers that he was representing in Central America, and oh, would we want to go down there and film with them? And, of course, we jumped at the opportunity. And when we went down there, and I’ll throw it to Mike, now, it’s like, really, the story took off in a way that we, we couldn’t have anticipated.
MIKE: Yeah, absolutely, you know, Sami was, was describing with this situation, you know, with Cuba, and the United States. And this trade embargo that we have, is different than the Dominican Republic is different than players coming from Venezuela. You know, Dominican Republic, for example, where Major League Baseball has million dollar institutions, every single team there, you know. So, you know, when Sami, came to me and our other partner, John, with this idea about the Cuban situation. We knew that it would open up some bigger questions, you know, about consumerism, about commodification of athletes, all of those sorts of things. So, you know, as he was saying, we’re fishing around is around the time of the signing of [13:02]. Who else do we film a couple of workouts with, Hector Oliveros, some of these Cubans signing for huge money. So when Gus invited us down to Costa Rica, and we met Carlos, Baró, Happy. Some of the other players that aren’t featured in the film, but you know, Johan Zacarias, who else? Freddie, Freddie Portiaz. We knew that something was going to happen with these guys, you know, not only was it just the height of the Cuban market, but they had all taken this incredible risk. And we’re in this place, you know, having trusted Gus and his group of coaches to provide these opportunities for them, you know. There was a contract, there was a understanding. They show up, they perform those deals. So you can imagine we were like, wow, we didn’t have the answer to that question. When I think Carlos the first time when we met him after the, after the first showcase was like, what is this about? Like, when’s it coming out? Who was, who was it about? Where like, we don’t really know. But after I think that first get together, we looked at each other. We’re like, I think this is our story here about, about these guys. So we came back down, and we told them, hey, you know, it’s about you. We want to, we want to follow you when you hopefully, you know, go into the minors and sign and get to change your life. But you don’t think about at the time to say, hey, we also are going to be there when, when you’re out on your ass, you know. And you miss your girlfriend and you’ve got no place to go. And your family’s worried about you, all of these sorts of things. So I think it was just to the dedication to stick with them and, and tell a story through their perspective. I mean, I think we’ve had a lot of stories through the industry perspective. And, you know, even Gus is an interesting character because, you know, he’s a person, he has hopes and ambitions. And in a sense, he is part of the system. But he’s also, you know, another cog in the wheel who has to, you know, skirt these rules that are in place for reasons that don’t really benefit anybody, you know, involved in, in, you know, trying to play baseball in the US.
ALEX: As you mentioned, the, the film really follows the stories of Happy Oliveros, Carlos Gonzalez and Victor Baró, right? And, and they’re all incredibly candid and honest, as the film goes on about their sort of distaste for the process, right? And they feel, you know, somewhat spurned, they feel lied to, like they’ve been left in this really vulnerable position. But, you know, those interviews with Gus are equally revealing, I think, and he’s very honest about his role in the broader sort of scheme of things. As you mentioned, Michael, he’s, he is kind of just a cog in this machine that has largely been codified by Major League Baseball itself. So were you, all that to say, it’s still a very shadowy kind of Nexus Network that that gets these players to the US. So were you surprised at all about sort of the honesty that you got from, from them talking, talking to the trainers, around the players? Did that sort of, were you taken aback at all by how open people were talking about this?
SAMI: At the time, I didn’t, I didn’t think I wasn’t surprised. But now looking back, and like thinking about the film, in context, it’s like, holy shit, did he actually say that? You know–
BOBBY: Yeah.
SAMI: –it did like, did, did, did [16:54] one of the coaches say that? You know, it was like, so it was, it’s only now looking back in hindsight to do I like fully appreciate, just, you know, how generous everybody was. Whether it was the guys or even Gus, even though you know, he, the guys get pissed at him, you know, like you alluded to, but I don’t know, Mike, what do you think?
MIKE: No, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, it was a process with everybody, you know. And it’s a testament, you know, as Sami was talking about Gus, to Sami’s diligence and, and just, you know, honestly, disarming nature that Gus was willing to talk to us from, from the beginning. But meeting Happy, Carlos, and Baró, it’s, it’s a funny story. The first days on the field, and, you know, Gus is excited for them to get used to media folks. And, you know, people with cameras, and they’re pretty rigid in front of the camera like I’m, I’m Baró, you know, like, the [17:56]. And, but early on, I think Happy and even since Carlos understood what we were doing, maybe before we did, yeah, in some ways. When, when we moved from off the field, and we’re just, you know, first just kind of showing up at their door, and then it turned into, like, you know, hanging out with them longer than just staying there and living with them. It’s a, at one point, you know, and just going through emotions together. And, and so when something happens, like a player gets dropped, or, you know, everything shifts, or there’s an offer on the table, and you’re there, and you’ve gone to their house, and you’ve met their parents, and you’re, you know, with them through thick and thin, I think that’s where some of the real truth is revealed behind their, their story and their perspective. And when they watch it, and you’re like, yeah, that’s, that’s me, that’s what happened. That’s what happened with us. And even with Gus, as, as you said, I think part of the, you know, we didn’t plan things like this, but part of the nature of having just a small but like, powerful team is, you know, I might be in Costa Rica with the guys like, being like, hey Sami, this is what’s going on here. And he’s actually in LA and can hit up Gus. And, you know, because he wasn’t done that much in Costa Rica, honestly. You know he’s in LA and taking care of his business. And, you know, he’s a businessman dealing with, dealing with players.
BOBBY: Part of what was probably hard for you guys to have perspective on some of the things that these guys were saying was that you were just in the thick of it with them like this whole time. And some, I mean, it’s basically impossible to predict what’s going to happen one scout might love a guy, with the scouts might sour on a guy for seemingly no reason. You’re not hearing every single back and forth with Gus and, and the scouts and Gus and the teams and what they might be signing for. So you know, there are kind of three ways that it could go, right? They could go back to Cuba, they could get signed and it could go very smoothly. Or they could go kind of this third route where they are on buses traveling through all of South and Central America trying to get up to Mexico, to the US border and in extremely harrowing situations. So, you know, from a practical perspective for you guys, how are you, I guess, how are you able, or were you expecting to be following them through this kind of harrowing journey? And what kind of preparation went into actually doing that and capturing some of that on film?
MIKE: I think, as I alluded to earlier, like, from the, from the outset, we knew something was going to happen. And around this time, it was evident that there was interest, there were serious interest in the guys. And, you know, there’s the whole story about the delay in their papers and did Gus showcase them too early? And changes in the market and all this sort of thing. But there were deals that could and, and probably should have been made. At the same time, you know, as you’re alluding to, you know, Happy’s story. Who I think, you know, we’ve talked enough about it publicly. You know, spoiler alert, when he gets, when he gets to draft, essentially, and, and how prepared were we I think it was a moment when we knew something was gonna happen. I don’t think we were necessarily surprised that Happy got confident the manner in which he was, I think, was shocking to us. That, you know, I think it’s the first time you hear like, one of our voices in the film, I don’t like he, he just gave you a piece of paper, that’s it? Like not even a bus ticket, not even like, hey, here’s, here’s a good way to transition to, you know, you’re gonna stay here where you have some sort of residency now. Here’s how you can get a job if you’re gonna move on, if you’re gonna go back to Cuba, I think, you know, as you mentioned, the option of going back to Cuba for or, or anybody’s home country, when they take that incredible, the diffi- difficult choice to leave their country and hope of greener pastures and better opportunities. To just turn around and go back, no matter what stage you’re at, I think, is really hard. So I think this work that was unfathomable for any of these guys, was, when they were in Costa Rica.
ALEX: There’s a moment kind of early on in the documentary where Happy is cooking, and he’s, he’s talking with a friend of his about sort of the independent nature of this whole journey. And I think he says something along the lines of like, thank God, I know how to cook. Because, you know, what do you do when you’re out there alone, without your family, you know, without that support system, and in a way, it sort of felt like a kind of a thesis for the project. Because it’s this picture of these young men who have grown up their whole life learning how to do one thing, right? And that’s to play baseball, and then all of a sudden, they have that safety net, ripped away from them. And in the case of a guy like Happy who ultimately gets cut, then that one thing that they’re successful at all of a sudden they can’t rely on. So was, was there anything that sort of struck you while following them on this really independent journey about their resiliency? About, was there anything surprising, I think that you kind of came across as they went on these journeys, doing it alone?
SAMI: Absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s great that you keyed into that moment. I think that’s one thing that we, to be honest, we kind of stumbled into it. We didn’t realize that we were kind of making a critique of 21st century capitalism, you know. Because these guys are coming from they’re not even coming from Havana, you know. Happy, Baró, and Carlos are from the East. They’re from pretty small towns, where, you know, Wi Fi, internet access is limited. Yeah, people have Facebook accounts. But the idea of 21st century capitalism and the sort of ruthless, machi- machinations of professional sports are, are pretty alien. So being, you know, for us to have or Western passports and to be able to travel between these places, Los Angeles, Costa Rica, Cuba, we can see not just to sort of stark, the stark comparison between the places, but how they were treated in each different place. And we were carrying that with us. Because, you know, this is off camera, but one of the most vivid moments and just you know, the sort of behind the scenes of making this film was this moment, were Happy back in Cuba again, spoiler alert. But it’s like actually debating the US way of doing things versus the Cuban way of things with his father. And you have this like incredible dialectic on like 21st century economics going on with these between these two men. But through their, you know, through their kind of non ideological lens. Yeah, it’s informed by the Cuban Revolution. Yeah, it’s informed by the fact that Happy has been able to make a little bit of a living in the US firms self. But it really is rooted in these characters. And I think I was surprised by, yes, they’re, they’re savvy, and their ability to improvise and adapt. But also that emotional resilience that you just talked about that especially in the case of, of Happy. Like, Mike really formed this incredible bond with Happy in 2015, 2016, really deep brotherhood. And I think did a remarkable job of like, capturing Happy’s journey there. And, you know, his, his name really tells you everything you need to know about the guy, it’s like, his–
BOBBY: Yeah.
SAMI: –name is Happy, and even he is, his dad’s name, Happy. But Happy are happy. He just brings a smile to your face. And given what he’s overcome. It’s just really remarkable.
BOBBY: Yeah, I mean, it’s a huge testament to the relationships that you guys built to be able to capture those moments. And for him, at some of these lowest points of his life, to be able to speak honestly and candidly about, about what’s happening and verbalize that to somebody mean, even human to human, that’s very hard. But with the camera in between, I imagine it must have been even harder. Like the scene, I was, I was texting Alex about this last night as I was watching it. But the scenery has to sell his baseball equipment is just one of the most crushing things I’ve ever seen put on screen. And the way that, you know, that sort, it’s sort of like this low point of his arc before he before he is eventually able to continue that journey and get to America, I think, is a real testament to the filmmaking and editing and everything that went into it. But ultimately, to capture that, it was amazing. You know, to me, this film is, you know, Sami, as you just laid out like you’re a film about 21st century capitalism. But also a stark rebuke of, of the system like that it just doesn’t, it just doesn’t work. Like it’s designed to work. You know, Mike, you mentioned that pretty early on, it seemed like these guys had a really good chance of signing and probably should have been signed, but eventually didn’t for kind of unknown, like, nebulous reasons that are hard to pin down. So I guess my question is, there’s a, there’s a bit of a storyline in the film about how the market for Cuban players have has dried up in the last few years. So can either of you speak a little bit to why that is? And, and what about the system is changing that is making it harder for these guys to get the attention. And whether or not you think that the system can be reformed to make it better for guys, like the three guys who focus on these films. Or whether it needs to be completely knocked down and rebuilt. Whether that’s something like an international draft or something else entirely.
ALEX: Yeah, I’m sure Sami has some good ideas about this, but I’ll just say off the bat. You know, I think there still is an opportunity for, for players, for Cuban players to sign. I mean, the system still benefits from, from eventually recognizing their status, you know, skirting the whole embargo and this the political situation. You know, I ran into one of the scouts in the, in the film, recently on the way down to Dominican Republic, who just signed another Cuban ballplayer for the Astros for, you know, $900,000. So that’s, there’s still money, that and that’s in more than anything that’s like a chance to, to play. So, an international draft like yeah, I don’t know what can be done with the Cuba situation without basically lifting the embargo and allowing commerce to take place between countries. It doesn’t mean that we have to go in and Americanize Cuba. But I know there’s a lot of passionate feelings, especially among Cubans about that subject and the embargo and whatnot. But I’m not, I’m not really sure, Sami, what do you think? What can Major League Baseball do to, to try to, you know, change this whole migrant trade that eventually is, is the result of the demand for, for these players?
SAMI: The first thing is a Major League Baseball is a protected monopoly, right? Like these financial, these businesses are protected from competition by Congress. So for them to go around and then insist that they can control the way, the labor which their game depends upon. They can control it and limit its value is unacceptable in my opinion. Maybe there’s like an international draft as some sort of, you know, intermediate stab, but I think that’s not preferred that baseball players whether they’re Americans, Canadians, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Cubans, Japanese players, South Koreans, whatever, they should be able to sell their skills on an open market and decide, you know, who what’s best for me and what’s best for my family. Because what’s true is that the system as it is, especially as it pertains to Cuban ballplayers incentivizes really sketchy behavior. Some of which you see in the film, but there’s a lot more that we’ve only heard whispers about, yes, there’s an active federal investigation into, you know, what’s happened with one particular team, that we still don’t know what the endgame is, there’s no indictments. Bert Hernandez was taken down, even Gus, agent in our film was taken down. But we need to understand exactly what’s gone on the last 10, 20 years, with Cuban players with Dominican players, if we’re going to have, if fans, if stakeholders in the game are going to have any informed decision about, you know, the best course moving forward. And, you know, I’m heartened by sort of progress in terms of minor league players. But, you know, there still is a kind of mentality for international players have out of sight, out of mind. It’s hard to take, like, the aspirations of a poor 12-year old Dominican kid, as seriously, as you know, a 25-year old 100 million dollar player. But I do hope that there’s some pressure on major league baseball, there’s some pressure put upon them by either federal prosecutors were Congress to come clean about the corruption that’s been in this world for the last decade or so.
ALEX: How did you balance kind of the, the human element of the story, these three players that you’re focusing on and whose journey you’re following, with that broader system that they’re a part of, right? Because there, there obviously are is really shady individuals that are participating in this process. Or, or, you know, maybe unsavory figures or people who kind of tip their hand a little bit, you know, there’s a scout who talks about aid, you know, do you have any bids on this one player? I know that Gus talks a lot about sort of the quote unquote, “investments” for his company, right? But again, they are situated in a much broader system that’s designed to exploit these players. I thought it was fascinating when Gus was talking about his, his jail time, and he says, you know, I’ve done, we didn’t do anything wrong, like outside the rules of Major League Baseball. And I kind of had to stop myself, because I’m like, he’s, he’s right, in a, in a sense, that Major League Baseball kind of tacitly allows this sort of thing. So, so how did you kind of balance, you know, wanting to allude to show the contours of that system, versus really drilling down into sort of the humanity of these three players?
MIKE: I think our approach like begins and ends with the humanity like, even with Gus. You know, it’s like, when we’re hearing his story, initially, we’re like, look at this guy who, I guess, you know, broke these rules of, of this political system that we have. But what did he really do something wrong by, by trying to get these guys out of Cuba? Trying to give them a chance to sign, you know. Maybe this is his redemption story, you know, where, where he’s got this new group of players, and he’s trying to rebuild his reputation. And that’s sort of how it came down to Costa Rica. You know, the mentality we had the first time. But, you know, when we got to know, the guys are our heroes in the film, Happy, Carlos, Baró, and get close to their humanity. You know, you see them initially and meet them as baseball players, you know, through, through the system itself in a way, you know. As a, as a documentarian, every time that you focus a lens participant, you are part of that reality, changing that reality, in a sense. So we’re down there, where we’re like media where, hey, we, you know, hey, guys get used to the cameras. But afterwards, we get to know them and, and we develop a personal relationship that, you know, extends throughout our lives really, at this point. And when, when there’s tough choices to make and when things happen in the film, like, you know, Happy getting cut, there’s, there’s a choice that we have to make as well filmmakers, you know. Do we stay here in Costa Rica through Gus? You know, how we began this story and his perspective and, you know, rebuilding his academy? Or do we stick with these guys and, and, and just really show the depth of their sacrifice and, and struggle. And so we hope that by staying with them and showing their, their reality as, as, as much as you can, you know, understanding that there are, there are bigger issues behind the system that they are participating in, that we’re all participating in. But that those questions can be raised through a true representation of what they’re going through. And the answers can be found within, you know, audience members, and people who ask themselves the tough questions, you know, the ones that we’re asking right now. So I think that’s how, you know, what do you think Sami? I mean, we always sort of took that approach of, of a participant first, even when it comes to Gus.
SAMI: Yeah, I mean, absolutely, it was also kind of trial and error, you know. Because we know, we didn’t realize how much we were biting off to chew at the very beginning. And there are countless threads that we, we had to drop, because they didn’t fit in to that rubric that Mike was just outlining. And, you know, as the monster have turned into years making this we would, you know, we have like our kinda, you know, Charlie, and it’s always sunny board up, right? And we’re like, [36:35] like crazy leads. It was like, how are we going to tell this, tell the story? And it’s like, okay, this, this loose end here, even as it connected to our core story in Costa Rica, like some of those other guys that Mike mentioned, it’s just heartbreaking to cut them out of the film. So how are, how are we going to work in this Miami lawyer, you know, who like represented Leonys Martín into the film. Like Leonys, Leonys Martín story into it, we can’t. It’s like, we’re cutting Freddie out of the film, it’s like, he’s giving me shit for that. It’s like we’re not gonna be [37:07], we’re not gonna be able to work this guy into it. And, you know, and but I also made us aware of the sort of limitations in the coverage of this world, too. It’s like, everything, it was like exploding, right? It’s sort of like, the drive to cover like the hottest prospect. And now, you know, in a week or two, when the World Series is done, it’ll shift back into that, where it’s like, oh, who’s gonna get posted from Japan? Who’s like the July 2nd stud that the Yankees are gonna sign? But it’s like, well, what, how does the system work? You know, it’s like, media gets more and more consolidated. And CNN is like dropping doing long form third party documentaries. It’s like, who is going to, how are we going to understand how the world works? Because yeah, it may be Cuban baseball players in our film. But Mike and I are of the opinion that actually understanding how the market treats Cuban baseball players can inform not just how we’re treated as sort of like, filmmakers in America. But as like, Starbucks workers as charb- as truck drivers. It’s like the system, there’s similarities of how the system treats all of us. So, but let’s, let’s understand how these machinations work. So we can, you know, at least make whether it’s electoral legislative, you know, financial decisions from an informed point of view and stop buying into the sort of BS that honestly, like billionaire owners are feeding us.
BOBBY: Yeah, well, you know, something that’s fascinating that maybe was one of those threads that you guys didn’t even have time to pull on or that didn’t quite necessarily fit directly into these guys’s story. But, you know, at the same time that baseball in America, baseball in the United States, collegiate baseball, high school baseball, perfect game. These sort of things are commodifying like the analytics, analytic revolution that’s happening in baseball. Some of these clubs are still making decisions based on like five scouts down in South America with a radar gun sitting on their lap and a couple guys with a, with a stopwatch. And the fact that I, I, on one hand, Major League Baseball for the most part, these individual clubs are allowing the technological revolution to continue to inform their decisions in the United States. They’re also just turning a blind eye to the fact that they don’t have any that information on any of these players. Like how, how could they possibly make an informed decision about whether they want to sign Carlos or Baró for example, when they have the spin rate on 1000 prospects in the United States that they can make a more informed decision? A, a club, like Houston is never going to choose the guy that they don’t know, as much information about, because it’s just a much bigger risk for them. And so, at the same time that, you know, all of these investments in analytics, and all of these technological advancements have allowed these clubs to make more optimized decisions, so to speak. This, this system of international prospects is being left even further behind. And I’m sure that that occurred to you guys, while, while creating the film, but for me watching, I just couldn’t help but think about that, when these clubs make all their decisions based on super, super advanced mathematical numbers that they’re just never gonna have for these guys.
MIKE: Yeah, it’s interesting, because it’s still continues to surprise us. And, you know, again, the scout that I mentioned, says something about, you know, all those guys, yeah, they’re represented by the lingers and rolled his eyes a little bit. And he’s like, well, I never really minded coming down there to Costa Rica, but, you know, it was off the beaten path for the regular, you know, rounds that these guys make. But, you know, what, what do you bring up reminds me a little bit of recent discussion we have about this idea of meritocracy. You know, like, it is there, what is the system? You know, how, how, how do players, you know, get a fair look? How did they get a fair shake? How do they understand what’s expected of them? You know, you see it in the film with our players, where there were, you know, promises made, there were expectations that were pretty clear for. You know, these players coming in performing, you know, following the coach’s advice, and, and, and the program that they designed for them, but you know, you ask them now, and some of the discussions with these guys, as they’re, you know, we’re, we’re hosting some conversations for them. You know, there’s still questions about, about all of that, about, you know, was, was the, the side of Gus and, and the coaches was their end of the bargain held up? You know, and how much did that factor into, you know, you talked about how how things are measured, and, and the sort of contract that you have in a system of evaluating players. And I think, you know, back to a little bit of the question of, of how do we sort of navigate some of these bigger ideas? And, you know, one of those scenes is that first showcase where we are really showing these guys as bodies as these things that are bought and sold. You know, it, it definitely, you know, calls back to, to the slave trade in the history of the connection to sports. So, you know, this, this is a system where we benefit from a spectacle where there are human beings behind it, you know. And I think when it comes to earning, earning one’s place, you know, these guys still have questions about it. Even as recently as you know, our last discussions. Carlos is like, did, did I, did I have a chance? You know, was I there?
BOBBY: One final question for you guys, were there any other documentaries that you specifically took as inspiration before making this film? Any, any docs that you were watching while cutting it together, while creating it or any just from your careers and lives as filmmakers and documentary fans, I imagine that specifically inspired the sort of stereotype style that you told it in?
SAMI: Yeah, I mean, obviously, like Hoop Dreams, Looms, Large, I think that was like, you know, we were young when that movie came out. But you know, Mike’s dad, dad went to Marquette. So that film was like a pretty big deal for him. And me, I was like, a huge basketball fan as well, when I was a kid. So it kind of blew our, blew our mind seeing that movie as kids and just like, you know, yeah, it’s a basketball movie, but it’s about so much more than that. Hoop Dreams was, you know, is obviously, the, the temple. I don’t know if we really anticipated that we would be getting into the kind of longitudinal long term storytelling that Steve James did not but we, we did like the movie shot over, I don’t know, four or five years. And, you know, I wasn’t married, tie and have kids. You know, Carlos has a kid and Mike is getting married now. Happies, you know, been through a couple relationships. And so it really that kind of as our long- as our North Star kind of sauce through stuff and then. Yeah, there was, there’s another movie like Pelotero obviously the, the Dominican world that had just come out when we started like a year or two before so that was helpful. It was made by a good friend of Mike, Stu, so edited by a good friend of mine, I should say.
ALEX: Sami Khan, Michael Gassert, directors of The Last Out. Thank you both so much for, for joining us for this conversation, I think we learned a lot. And we really want to encourage all of our listeners to go out and watch this film. It’s, it’s required viewing for anyone who’s interested in baseball, and the labor dynamics within it. It’s out now on select streaming platforms. And you can find more information about that in the description. Guys, thank you so much.
MIKE: Thank you, guys, it’s a pleasure.
SAMI: [45:38] Yeah, thanks, Bobby.
MIKE: Thanks.
[45:42]
[Music Transition]
BOBBY: Alright, thank you to Sami, thank you to Michael. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I hope that if you’re one of the people who hasn’t watched the documentary yet, but you listen to that conversation, this will inspire you to go watch it. We intend to use this as sort of a jumping off point for some of the other international focus episodes that we want to do this offseason. Having some conversations about the ongoing lawsuit against the Los Angeles Angels, about their practices in the international market. The concept of an international draft, how this is something that will need to be eventually ironed out in collective bargaining, like we want to talk about all this stuff. But you know, for me, this felt like a good entry point to it. Always remembering that there are actually real people that are trying to make it through all of these systems.
ALEX: Absolutely. I mean, this the, the documentary, I mean, we’ve wax poetic at length about it, you know.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: But I think it does a really good job of kind of breaking down what can feel like very foreign sort of alien concepts that, you know, take place in another part of the world. And so we’re not really forced to confront them. And by, by putting it right there in front of you, for, for everyone to see. I think it really does sort of shift the way that at least I think about the, the international baseball market.
BOBBY: It seems pretty bad.
ALEX: Yeah, I think things are not right there.
BOBBY: Market seems messed up and bad. And a lot of people seem just, frankly, way too complacent about that.
ALEX: Yeah, maybe someone should do something about that. I don’t know who has the power to do that.
BOBBY: Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe, maybe the owners, potentially? Maybe the commissioner? I don’t, I don’t know whose let this fester. But it’s now an international, frankly, governmental issue. All right, well, thanks, everybody for listening. Thank you to the new patrons. I didn’t name you because once again, we are recording this in the past. So I don’t know who you are yet, but I still love you just the same. We’ll be back next week with an episode recorded in a more timely manner. But until then, check out our new merch. Sign up for the Patreon, patreon.com/tippingpitches. And we’ll talk to you soon.
[47:58]
[Music]
[48:11]
[Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most, Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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