Alex and Bobby give their takeaways from the championship series that concluded this week, then break down the strange allure of an Astros-Phillies World Series, including the likability of the not-so-ragtag team from Philadelphia, the inevitability of Houston, and the strange arc of this postseason. They spend the second half of the podcast discussing Taylor Swift’s “Midnights.” Don’t say you weren’t warned!
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Songs featured in this episode:
Taylor Swift — “You’re On Your Own, Kid” • Taylor Swift — “Maroon” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and, and, and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about? That’s amazing! That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, oftentimes when we start the podcast, do a little bit, do a little joke. I asked you a question sometimes. Sometimes I’ll do a bad take dramatic reading.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I would like to start this week’s podcast by setting the extremely ridiculous scene that we are recording in. We are sitting at my childhood homes kitchen table. You are using an, a normal microphone. A Shure SM58 for my audio files out there, which we record with often.
ALEX: Yeah, great, great mic.
BOBBY: Really quality microphone.
ALEX: Love it.
BOBBY: Now, under normal circumstances, I would also be using a Shure SM58, but I left it at home. I left it at my apartment so I am recording into the top of Zoom recorder. I apologize for any boominess. But it’s been quite a week. It is 11:42 pm, as we sit down to record this. And about six hours ago, we did our very first live Tipping Pitches Podcast at Rowan University. Thanks to the fine folks at Rowan University. A version of that live podcast will run on this feed at some point. Not exactly sure when, I just finished 16 ounces of Wawa coffee. I am drinking a Cayman Jack Margarita. No Tequila, just malt liquor. And we’re gonna have a fun time, you know what we’re gonna do, Alex? We’re going to leave a real fucking legacy.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: We’re going to talk about the World Series, we’re going to talk about the new Taylor Swift album, Midnights and I honestly don’t know what else is gonna happen, I couldn’t even tell you.
ALEX: That’s, yeah. I mean, we’re creating our own Midnights right here, the clock we’ll strike 12 very soon.
BOBBY: But before we do all of that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you, I guess, are listening to a certain kind of Tipping Pitches.
[2:22]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: So Alex, the World Series.
ALEX: We, we’re here.
BOBBY: It’s like four days away. Can we start by talking about that?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: All of this stress, all of the compressed scheduled no off days. No, no rainouts possible. They’re playing through the monsoons in Philadelphia.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: All of, all for it to end in five games in the NL side, four games on the AL side, and to have four full days off before the World Series. It’s kind of ridiculous, right?
ALEX: It is kind of ridiculous. I don’t really know how to, like contextualize it in my head around it. People are a lot to takes, as there are. And about, especially about the scheduling sort of format of this postseason. And I think I don’t have str- like as strong feelings on it as, as some other folks do. It’s more just in these certain instances, where you’re like, we literally cannot have this game rained out, because we won’t be able to play it? Or, or these weird gaps where it does sort of bubble up. Like I’m not necessarily thinking about it, as I’m watching the games or even as I’m thinking about the playoffs writ large. But as we sit here twiddling our thumbs wondering what the hell we’re going to do until Friday.
BOBBY: Yeah. We’re going to work.
ALEX: I guess so.
BOBBY: Because we’re hard working Americans.
ALEX: Yeah, right. No one wants to work anymore but we–
BOBBY: Were gonna work.
ALEX: –never stop.
BOBBY: Am I, did I miss something here? Like could they not push the World Series back a day? Is there some, like is Taco Bell going to be mad? Was someone going to be Miss Dusan gonna be mad? Who’s sponsoring the World Series this year? Was it, was it totally not possible to delay the World Series? Did they had, had say exempt- for example, they delayed the Phillies game. They rained it out on, on Sunday. And then they would have had to push back the travel day to San Diego to fly back to San Diego. Should the Padres have won had that game gone a full seven game. Had that series gonna full seven games, and the World Series got delayed one day. Would the World Series have been canceled?
ALEX: I don’t, I don’t know. That’s the thing. And that’s why it was frustrating to watch that game you mentioned.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Which, which was the Phillies-Padres the, the game that ended the series, it looks for a secon there like someone was probably going to get hurt in the middle of that game.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Because, because Seranthony Dominguez that is Sir-anthony Dominguez.
BOBBY: Seranthony.
ALEX: Seranthony–
BOBBY: Sir, Sir.
ALEX: –like knighted.
BOBBY: Anthony.
ALEX: Anthony Dominguez, yes. Three wild pitches all year, three wild pitches that inning.
BOBBY: I think they’re all in one of–
ALEX: That too.
BOBBY: –for one for that. Not a good look.
ALEX: Like it was, it was so evident–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –you know. Again, I don’t have I don’t have a take about it. Like I don’t I don’t have a solution, that I’m like they, they should have done this. Because I’m not smart enough to think about the contours of professional sports scheduling. But I can also look at something and say, that looks unsafe. I already think what they’re doing is really hurting their bodies probably.
BOBBY: Sure. Yeah. I don’t know, I just wanted to ask you that, because I feel like the four day layoff really exacerbated
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That the middle innings of that game seeming like they maybe should have been delayed. But none of that really matters, right? Like that’s we’re kind of burying the lede a little bit by even opening up with that. We should probably talk about the fact that the Phillies then went on to win that game in pretty marvelous fashion. You know, last week on the podcast, I gave you my, my sort of five rules of thumb for what makes a perfect playoff game. I think that that was the one, that one was the closest one that we’ve gotten in this postseason. And now we’re a couple days away from this, but because of this extended prolonged layoff that we have, I wanted to talk to you about whether or not that closing game makes up for the fact that we only got nine total games in the championship series, combined.
ALEX: That last day of baseball was a lot of fun. The Yankees-Astros game, I felt like was up there as well, even though the circumstances–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –were a little bit different. Obviously the Yankees really have their backs against the wall. It was they had to win it. And–
BOBBY: And their big time home run hitter came through.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: Harrison Bader.
ALEX: Right. But you know that it was the most competitive really that we’d seen the Yankees all series, it had mostly been a snooze fest in my opinion–
BOBBY: Get ’em.
ALEX: –you know. I’m sorry.
BOBBY: Coming up next–
ALEX: The Astros are, breaking news, a really, really good baseball team.
BOBBY: Just made me sick to watch, just made me, just made me sick to watch Jim Crane up there. Talking about how they do it the right way. Like, bro, come on. Read the room. Read the room.
ALEX: Yeah. So, so I don’t know if it necessarily makes up for it. But I don’t even know that it necessarily has to make up for it. Because these playoffs as a whole have like kind of broken my brain just a little bit. Like just the Phillies kind of period, have really flipped upside down my understanding of the game of baseball for the most part, you know.
BOBBY: More than the Braves last year? Like Eddie Rosario was batting .450.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: More than the Braves.
ALEX: I mean, in a sense, there’s something about the Braves that maybe felt a little more buttoned up. And maybe, maybe it’s because I’m here with you in Philly. And I kind of understand sort of Philly culture and you see these, you know, Shaggy [8:17]–
BOBBY: Well-documented on the podcast.
ALEX: Yes. Well-doc-
BOBBY: That you understand Philly culture, whether you like it or not.
ALEX: Yes, right. I didn’t really have a choice. But you know–
BOBBY: But you chose to walk into Xfinity Live! three different times.
ALEX: That I did.
BOBBY: Keep walking on those doors.
ALEX: You know, I was advocating to go back. You had to pull me away.
BOBBY: To drag you out!
ALEX: I mean, the Phillies finished third this year. The Braves, the Braves won the Division last year, right? I mean, now it was not an overwhelming win, right? They didn’t even crack 90, I don’t think.
BOBBY: No, they finished with 88.
ALEX: Right, exactly. So–
BOBBY: The Phillies with 87 this year.
ALEX: I, I think I, I look at the Braves and franchise wise they’re a pretty well-oiled machine. And I’m familiar with a lot of their players. And they have this sort of star power. But it doesn’t necessarily feel like they’re this ragtag team, you know, who were just like trying to take down Goliath. Whereas the Phillies, it’s been talked about all year, how crazy it is just to watch them play like half of the game of baseball, you know?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And we obviously we did a watch party, where we watched one of them, one of the more insane games I’ve ever seen, right. This back and forth game against the Blue Jays that, like both teams ended in double digit runs, right? Like, I mean, it felt like there’s no reason they should be here. And that’s exactly why they’re here right now.
BOBBY: And it’s exactly why it’s really fun to watch them, you know. The other thing that I wanted to ask you was, Is this one of the most likable teams of this century so far?
ALEX: This Phillies team?
BOBBY: Yes. I mean, that’s an insane thing to think about. But like, I, I look at them, I look at them. I despise the Phillies. I really, I honestly do sitting in my childhood home where I experienced much trauma, watching the Mets blow things to the Philadelphia Phillies. I look up and down their roster, and I gotta be honest, I don’t see a bad vibes guy. I mean, there’s a couple guys that we can clown on. There’s a, there’s a couple of antivaxxers, there’s a couple of guys–
ALEX: RIght.
BOBBY: –who have shown their ass a little bit. But what team doesn’t have that?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You know, every team has that. My team has that, your team has that. Every team has guys like that. But as far as teams that match the identity of their cities. I really, you know, I wasn’t expecting to come out here as like an insane, insanely pro Phillies guy on the podcast. And I just spoiler alert will not be rooting for the Philadelphia Phillies to win the World Series. But from the objective host of Tipping Pitches that I am, very objective all–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –the time as you are, we’re always objective.
ALEX: Obviously.
BOBBY: Both sides journalism. I mean, I don’t know how you look at this team and you don’t see everything that is right with the Major League Baseball playoffs. That’s why the the discourse cycle about all of these great teams getting eliminated and you know, is the pathway too easy for the Phillies. I’m like, is the, is the pathway to it? They just beat the Padres who eliminated a 101 win Mets team. The prior round, they beat 101 win Braves team who fucking took their lunch all year. And in the opening round, they beat a solid Cardinals team that won their division. So I mean, it’s strange to me to watch how teams like the Phillies have gotten the brunt of the discourse about whether or not this version of the MLB playoffs makes any sense. Because to me, they are just the classic good team that struggled throughout the year to find their identity and got hot at the right time.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Which is [11:48] all this time and which honestly, is easiest to find that sort of like October magic.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You look at them and like that is the team. The Astros are better. The Astros are maybe the best team in baseball despite the fact that they finished 5 wins behind the Dodgers. I would have loved to have seen that matchup just for purely like baseball purist. The two best statistical teams with–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –the deepest lineups, I would have loved to have watched that. But it’s probably going to be equally as entertaining to watch the unstoppable force I guess that is the Philadelphia Phillies.
ALEX: Right,
BOBBY: Even though if, even if the force is doing like, tail spins as they raced down–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –the track versus the immovable object, the stalwart Houston Astros. Who have now made the world series four times in the last six years. And won it once and lost in seven two other times, you know what I mean?
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, I feel like the Phillies are more endearing than they are like actively likeable. Like, I don’t necessarily look at the roster. And I’m just like, Bryce Harper, love that dude, you know.
BOBBY: I do, I love Bryce Harper.
ALEX: I mean, I–
BOBBY: Alex, I mean, I could take them or leave them.
ALEX: Yeah. But again, like–
BOBBY: In the context of–
ALEX: In, in the context–
BOBBY: –the team–
ALEX: –of the team in–
BOBBY: –the city and the ballpark–
ALEX: It’s am- it was like, amazing.
BOBBY: I mean, far be it for me to tip my cap to Phillies fans, but damn!
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: One of the best October ballparks that I’ve seen in years.
ALEX: Right. And, and with Bohm’s, specifically, right? They obviously had a rocky relationship, him in the fan base. And they’ve really come to embrace him as this young kind of stalwart of their team. It’s just a, a collection of dudes that doesn’t really make sense. Like Nick Castellanos, as you realize he’s playing in the World Series this week.
BOBBY: I don’t know what to do with that information. Like how do you, maybe the doomsday preppers were right.
ALEX: You know, like Jean Segura, single-handedly tried to lose and also single-handedly won one of the games this week, you know. Like–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –he had five, four or five different plays that impacted the course of the game.
BOBBY: To me, okay, here’s how I’m imagining this matchup. And maybe we can use this as a sort of transition point to start talking a little bit about the Astros who swept the Yankees and downright embarrassing fashion which was very satisfying to watch, honestly. But how I expect this World Series to go is expect the Astros to be like, Muhammad Ali. Like the most talented fighter in the entire world, and I expect the Phillies. I say this respectfully with love to fight like someone on PCP. Just like not a boxer, like they’re not even gonna be playing the–
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: –state of game really.
ALEX: Because and that’s hard to beat, right? Because you, you kind of–
BOBBY: I guess so, I mean, I guess.
ALEX: –’cause you come to the table expecting.
BOBBY: Jab, jab, cross.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And you get [14:49]
ALEX: right like a, a backflip. You’re like, I don’t–
BOBBY: Look in the eye?
ALEX: –right. You’re like, what do I do with that?
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. What do you make of the Astros absolutely pantsing New York Yankess?
ALEX: I mean, you know, as I said, I think this series as a whole was like, I, I wish it was more competitive. Even if I maybe was not actively rooting for the Yankees to win. I’ve, really in this series, I didn’t really have a dog, you know, in the fight. Or one team I was actively rooting against. Although you and me joked quite a few times how funny it would be if the Astros swept the New York Yankees and lo and behold,
BOBBY: Still funny. Yo, that was great.
ALEX: Still pretty funny. I mean, you know, I will say this. I, I’m working on this theory that, that Yankees fans and Mets fans are, are a sort of like horseshoe theory of fandom. Like–
BOBBY: I love this.
ALEX: –the Mets fans are so cynical, and expect everything to go wrong at any moment. That it creates this really fatalistic view of this team, right? It’s like, of course they lost. And Yankees fans expect so much from their team, expect the most from their team that when anything goes slightly wrong, that switch flips. And they’re like, well a fucking course. Get rid of Boone, I mean, like halfway through the series, it was, it was like, we should start dismantling the team now, you know. And so they ended up–
BOBBY: They should [16:24] now.
ALEX: Well, okay. Sure, you know, but I, I, I thought I was–
BOBBY: I know what you’re saying.
ALEX: –I thought it was funny seeing them. And I’m like, you guys are like Yankees fans, like you can still talk your shit. Like, I’m gonna get mad about it. But like, Y’all made it to the ALCS.
BOBBY: I mean, okay, I, I agree, I just think that like, they’re just baseball team now. To me like, and that’s the problem like we watch the Yankees brain on a daily basis. And I’m just no longer and I haven’t been for a while, like willing to accept that there’s anything exceptional about this organization.
ALEX: I know, which–
BOBBY: Like–
ALEX: –is like probably the the best kind of roast of Yankees fans in the organization you can make is, yeah, you’re just, you’re just one of the teams.
BOBBY: Everybody else. And there are some teams that are worse than the Yankees. But there are certainly some teams that are handling things better–
ALEX: Right, you are no longer known as the, the biggest spenders, the ones who will do anything to get that title. You’re the middle of the top of the pack.
BOBBY: See, I think the thing is, though, that I think that there’s a plurality of Yankees fans who understand that and, and share that opinion. I just think that the organization, I think it’s, I placed the blame on the organization. I don’t place the blame on the fans, like the way that they talk about themselves as being this sort of like, as being, you know, to borrow a phrase from your Golden State Warriors as being lightyears ahead of everybody else. Like, they set an expectation that they are going to make moves that would place them lightyears ahead of everyone else. And they’re just like, kind of relying on the narrative now at this point. And it presents really interesting question, ’cause, you know, like, we got asked by people earlier today, like, while we were doing our live show, you know. In casual conversation afterwards, do you think the Yankees are kind of resigned Aaron Judge. Like this is a big topic of conversation, despite the fact that the World Series is starting in four days. And I certainly don’t feel as confident as I would have felt 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Like this sort of idea of optimization, which, you know, ironically enough, also came up in our live show today. This idea of optima- optimization, that, you know, clubs, like the Houston Astros are as guilty as anybody, for spreading throughout all of Major League Baseball, this idea that everything has to be perfectly optimized. We have to get the most out of every dollar that we spend. It just doesn’t work for everyone. And, you know, I saw an interesting graphic that was like kind of cherry picking. But nonetheless, I think, can sort of speak to this narrative, which is that a large part of the Yankees braintrust. And it’s not just, you know, Brian Cashman, who, who I think are all better than average at their job. We’re hired in like 2005 or earlier. And most of the Astros front office, you know, for different reasons–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –was hired within the last two years. So like, I do think that there is a sort of like staleness to the New York Yankees. And I mean, not to draw too much from one series. But it’s not even one series anymore, they’ve been beaten by the Astros repeatedly. They’ve gone out early in the playoffs. They haven’t made the World Series since they want it in 2009. I mean, I think that there is a complacency among Major League Baseball owners that the Yankees didn’t have and that’s what made them exceptional. And I just don’t think that that, I just think that that complacency now exists with Hal Steinbrenner. And whether or not you can say that a team like the Astros is investing more. I mean, I think you can pretty definitively say that the Astros are not like willing to spend as much as the Yankees or spend as much as the Mets. But they’re, they’re clearly trying to win baseball games, you know. Like at all costs and that has gotten them in trouble before but that has also led them to innovate and create better baseball players and just about everybody else in, in Major League Baseball.
ALEX: Yeah, Bobby said sounds like other teams should have cheated if they wanted to win.
BOBBY: Let’s be, really frill everybody was cheating.
ALEX: I mean, yeah.
BOBBY: Said it at the time we’ll say it again, we’ll continue–
ALEX: Yup!
BOBBY: –to say it. Uhm, so, so what’s gonna happen? Are the Astros gonna steamroll the Phillies? Two questions actually, what is going to happen? And what do you want to happen/should the casual fan wants happen?
ALEX: I will start with the latter question.
BOBBY: Yeah. moralized this World Series for me.
ALEX: Right. I mean, and–
BOBBY: Can a righteous fight for one side or the other.
ALEX: Right. Well, I luckily, I, I think I can say with confidence that you’ll probably land on the other side of this one, so you can make the case.
BOBBY: [21:06]
ALEX: For the Astros, because it pains me to say it to your face, but I’m pulling for the Phillies. Because again–
BOBBY: You disgust me, honestly.
ALEX: Look, I don’t have–
BOBBY: You put on Mets’ jersey.
ALEX: –I don’t have the generational trauma.
BOBBY: You come to Citi Field to cheer when they score. You get sad when they lose.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And yet, you [21:30] those words, I’m rooting for the Philadelphia Phillies.
ALEX: I know, I know. It was really accidentally live that sold me. I was like–
BOBBY: The bull, right?
ALEX: Right. The mechanical bull. Yeah.
BOBBY: I can’t believe you didn’t ride the bull.
ALEX: That was a, that was a moral failing on my part.
BOBBY: And yeah, you should apologize.
ALEX: I mean, we’re still here for another day or two.
BOBBY: You just go there right after this pod. Like kind of the energy I’m feeling right now. 16 ounces of Wawa coffee and a margarita.
ALEX: I mean, obviously, you cannot actually make a holy moral case for either of these teams, or really any baseball team to win. But the Astros are such a well-oiled machine. That–
BOBBY: It’s funny when they lose.
ALEX: It’s kind of funny when they lose and it’s not as fun when they win necessarily. Because my mind is like, Okay, I was fully expecting that, right? And to answer the first part of your question, I think the Astros will win. I don’t think that they’re gonna steamroll them because again, the Phillies have this sort of team of destiny vibe about them, right? And they are having so much fun out there. And that really kind of, that matters to me when I’m like watching an actual team is I’m like, look at these fucking goobers–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –you know. Like what, Nick Castellanos is just playing baseball? Instead of philosophizing about–
BOBBY: Opening day?
ALEX: –opening day, exactly.
BOBBY: So I think the Astros are gonna steamroll them. I think they’re gonna win in 5? I mean, team of destiny un- until you go to Minute Maid Park.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And the Astros jump right on.
ALEX: Until you realize that object really is immovable.
BOBBY: And I could be totally wrong, you know, but this is just from my perspective, the Astros are better at every position.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And better at every rotation spot. And there’s like maybe shoe relievers that are better on the Phillies than anyone in the Astros. As long as Jose Alvarado doesn’t forget to throw strikes, but you know, without getting too in the weeds about how these teams actually match up. I mean, I just think that team of destiny doesn’t always roll over into the World Series.
ALEX: Right. It only takes–
BOBBY: This is now–
ALEX: –you so far.
BOBBY: –this is now a team in the Astros that they will have not played as often as they played the other teams that they’ve played so far. So there’s less of any kind of carryover effect from having seen these teams throughout the rest of the season. And sort of regressing to the means of how close these two teams are, you know. Like it might have with the Braves, like the Phillies played the Braves like eight times in September.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So it’s not that we’re that they played them in October and played better against them.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Like, I don’t know if there’s actually statistics that back that up. But–
ALEX: The, the flip side is the Braves also play the Phillies, right? So you could make the same case for them in theory, right?
BOBBY: Sure. But I feel like there’s something to- and, and maybe this is, this is very likely. unquantifiable. But it–
ALEX: Un-hogwash.
BOBBY: –but I do feel like there is something to this notion of like if both teams are good, which both of those teams are? The Phillies are good, like–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –we’ve been saying this for months.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like they are go- like I said in September or late August after I think after we went and saw them play the Mets. Even though that was a terrible series for the Phillies. Like they have enough good players that they’re, I said they’re gonna make the playoffs and anything can happen from there. And it’s not like this is a, it’s not like this is necessarily a classic David versus Goliath.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: I think it’s David versus Goliath in terms of likability from a national perspective.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But not really David versus Goliath in terms of roster construction.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Like–
ALEX: Because they have–
BOBBY: [25:14] fucking Bryce Harper.
ALEX: –guys like Bryce Harper.
BOBBY: What are we fucking talking about?
ALEX: I know, I know.
BOBBY: Aaron Nola, Zack Wheeler–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –like these are some of the best players in baseball. It’s not like they’re a total pushover. It’s not like there’s no scenario in which you could see. Of course, it was unlikely that Rhys Hoskins hits five home runs in the playoffs. But it’s also unlikely that Daniel Murphy hit six home runs in the playoffs in 2015.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: These teams feel very similar to me, by the way, the 2015 Mets and, and the 2022 Phillies.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And maybe that’s just my wishful thinking and that they get to the World Series, and they all run out of their magic, but, man!
ALEX: I mean, yeah, I mean, you, you look at the Astros and you’re like, this team hasn’t lost a baseball game in a few weeks. Like, they very well could steamroll them and–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –go whatever a no.
BOBBY: No one would be surprised.
ALEX: No one would be surprised by that.
BOBBY: But also, I mean, does that add a level of pressure?
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Or does that add a level of impossibility? Like, there’s just no way that they can really run the table.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And win every game. I don’t think anyone has ever done that, right?
ALEX: I don’t think so, I don’t think so.
BOBBY: Certainly not in the format in which you play this many series.
ALEX: Right. I mean, you know, I think I said this last week or the week before, but for the Phillies to continue doing what they’re doing, they’re, they’re like actual bats. The bats that they signed to hit the ball, are gonna have to start hitting the ball, which they did in the last week, right? Like, like you said–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –Hoskins showed up. Kyle Schwarber showed the fuck up. Bryce Harper, all of a sudden has a cast of characters around him who can shoulder some of that weight a little bit, right? And so it does feel like well, it’s not like we shouldn’t be here, the whole world against us. It’s kind of like, things have not gelled the entire year. And all of a sudden, for two weeks, they look like the most cohesive baseball team, like we’ve seen.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And so there is something like unpredictable about that, where you’re like, I have no idea what’s going to happen when they go up against an actual, like juggernaut of a baseball team. But like you alluded to earlier, there is something to be said about a team who doesn’t check all those boxes, necessarily. It’s not like a perfect square.
BOBBY: Yeah. To me, like, okay, when I watched the Phillies, in this October, they seem just like the gears of a watch are all fit perfectly now. All Season 2, 3, 4 gears were just jammed. Whether that was their defense, whether that was injuries. You know, missing Bryce Harper for months during the season, even though they played very well during that time period. And now I watched them and it’s like, every single player is playing to their 90th percentile outcome right now. Ranger Suarez, looks like Patrick Corbin did in 2019. And I mean, I think it’s very possible that the Phillies win the World Series. I think it’s, I think the most definitive you could ever get me to say a lopsided World Series is is like 60-40 in favor of the better team because it’s a seven game series.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Four wins. The Dodgers got swept by the Pirates this year. Like these things–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –happen–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –in baseball. So I don’t know, all of that to say, I’m pretty excited. I’m pretty excited for this World Series.
ALEX: I’m really excited. And I kind of didn’t think I would be, because I saw the field narrowing down and I saw a lot of the teams that I was maybe pulling for or thought were really likable and well-constructed teams–
BOBBY: Just fall.
ALEX: –just fall, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Like the Dodgers, the, the Mets. Even the Padres to an extent I was like, this is–
BOBBY: You’re pointing for the Mets? And now you’re telling me that you’re rooting for the Phillies. Just getting on record. Okay, sounds good.
ALEX: I mean, hypocrite, it’s fine. But–
BOBBY: And when your brain has this messed up from the Oakland A’s like, I [28:55]–
ALEX: I mean it really is, like, the fact that I’m even still tuned in, you know.
BOBBY: I saw, just for the listeners, I watched Alex get asked by someone before we did our live show earlier tonight. Whether or not the A’s were gonna get a new stadium or moved to Las Vegas. Me it’s just like just a total stranger. And he was just like, how do you answer this question? He’s like, I have three years of a podcast you could listen to if you want to know all of my thoughts about the Oakland A’s.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Eluding your friendship with John Fisher.
ALEX: Right, exactly. I was asked, not really asked, if stated at, so the A’s having one in your lifetime, huh?
BOBBY: They said the same- the person said same with the Mets.
ALEX: Yeah. It’s like, I mean, you’d have to say [29:35] that’s true.
BOBBY: Stop, stop, he’s already dead.
ALEX: Again, like it looks like we were maybe headed towards something like a Astros-Braves World Series or Yankees-Braves World Series, right? And I just–
BOBBY: And they’re my due, that happened last year.
ALEX: I know, like, exactly. Right? And I was like–
BOBBY: God, that was so bad.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Can I just say like it’s unbelievable how much easier it is for me to root for the Phillies who again, I need to remind everybody have caused me–
ALEX: You despised.
BOBBY: –generational trauma. Going on two decades of trauma, versus the Braves who are just, just not likable in almost any way at all, it’s almost impressive how unlikable they are compared to this Phillies.
ALEX: Again, they are very endearing. They feel like these sort of lovable losers, right? I mean, they’re not losers. They are winners who are playing in the World Series, obviously. But it’s really hard to quantify the radically different vibes that are emanating from these two teams.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And that’s why I’m really excited to just kind of watch what happens. Even if the Astros do steamroll them.
BOBBY: When the Astros do steamroll?
ALEX: Well, yeah.
BOBBY: I can’t wait for like bad, what is that, like cold takes?
ALEX: Yeah cold–
BOBBY: Or freezing cold takes. Cold takes expose.
ALEX: Cold takes expose.
BOBBY: I can’t wait for them to come get me. I know they’re big listeners of the Tipping Pitches Podcast. I know our listeners–
ALEX: I mean–
BOBBY: –the type of people who would definitely refer this to them.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, they’re gonna get one of us no matter what so.
BOBBY: Well, they probably won’t get you because there’s probably an Astros fan listening to this that will report you for not rooting for the Astros. But there are definitely Phillies fans listening to this right now.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Thinking of a couple of people specifically might report me for coming out so strongly against the Phillies.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, it is kind of interesting to see how the baseball world has sort of coalesced around the Phillies.
BOBBY: Nobody wants for the Astros to win.
ALEX: No one wants the Astros to win.
BOBBY: And I get it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And I get it. But I, the last thing I’ll say on this, and then we can talk about the thing that we really want to talk about which is Taylor Swift’s Midnights. The last thing I’ll say about this is I do find it rather funny and compelling. The idea that the Astros who are basically a modern dynasty in baseball, could lose to three different NL East teams that are significantly worse from them, worse than them in a World Series, over this time span. Like that’s just, that’s just funny. You just, that’s just great comedy.
ALEX: It is.
BOBBY: You couldn’t script it better than that. Just the shitty NL East, just spoiling the Astros go dominated.
ALEX: Literally like a, a an actual dynasty.
BOBBY: Just got spoiled.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: By the fucking NL East.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: By teams that often have trouble beating the Miami Marlins.
ALEX: Yeah. I, if you, if this is how you told me it would go, even like three years ago, four years ago. I’m like, no. Look at that Astros team. Did you see all the amazing players they have?
BOBBY: It would just force me to believe that next year the Marlins would have an 88 win season and–
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: –beat the Astros in the World Series. And the Mets is someone–
ALEX: And the Mets–
BOBBY: –be the only team left out.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Final Thoughts on the World Series?
ALEX: Excited to watch Jeremy Peña’s arms. Excited to see Bryce Harper’s the results of his grooming on live TV. And now it’s been a while since we’ve really taken a dive into world of Bryce Harper’s hair products. But–
BOBBY: It’s looking as good as ever.
ALEX: –it’s looking as good as ever.
BOBBY: His beard must be tended to multiple times a day?
ALEX: That’s right. Now, do we [33:24]–
BOBBY: Morning, noon, and night?
ALEX: Do we think that he is doing all of that or is he has someone?
BOBBY: No, no, no, that’s the work of a barber.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That is the work of a barber. As someone who won’t pay someone to take care of their beard I can, I, I can identify someone who will pay someone to take care of their beard. And that is what Bryce Harper is doing.
ALEX: So does that indicate that he’s going there? Does he have a living?
BOBBY: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Does he have a live it? No. I think he has someone at the clubhouse who comes and cuts his hair at the clubhouse. I feel like we can ask them on this. Alex Coffee, if you’re listening right now, please call into our voicemail or DM us on Twitter. And explain how Bryce Harper looks like that all of the time. Wait, by the way, I forgot to say this. Number one, it’s gonna be really cool to see Bryce Harper in the World Series.
ALEX: Yes. Like this feels like a–
BOBBY: One of dumbest storylines was the, the Nationals making and winning the World Series the year after Bryce left. Like that was just total happenstance. It had nothing to do with him not resigning him. And he should still be on the Nationals as far as I’m concerned. But he’s not and he’s pandered to Philadelphia as well as any other athlete has in my lifetime. In terms of people who came there halfway through their career.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: My division rival no less. Be like Marc-André Fleury go into the flyers hockey, hockey for–
ALEX: Yeah, yeah.
BOBBY: It’s my hockey year, get into hockey. Done with the Mets. in with the Rangers, definitely not gonna get my heartbroken by this. Uhm, I’m really excited to watch him in the World Series. Because he is, he’s like, individual personality. And weird QAnon vibe, aside. He’s kind of like everything I want in a baseball superstar.
ALEX: Right, yeah.
BOBBY: He, he rises to the moment, he’s actually fucking amazing at baseball. He has a weird backlash to him that is very easy to foil when you’re talking to someone else. Like there’s no reason really to dislike him or think that he’s overrated.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And he, he truly is like a Shakespearean theatre trained performer on the field. And that’s why the moment in Game 5, when he hit the go-ahead home run, to put them up 4-3. When he got to the dugout, I was honestly shocked by how shell shocked he looked. That was a man, blacking out.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like that was a man who was having an out of body, out of body experience. We don’t get to witness that very often on live television. He was not emoting at all.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: He looked off into the distance and said, I can’t believe I just did that. Or something like I just did that or something to that effect. And this is a guy who has hit several playoff home runs, he had an amazing moment with the Nationals in 2018. I forget who they’re playing, but he hit, he hit a home run and he bat flipped the shit out of it. And I remember writing blogging about it. And for him to do that, in front of that crowd, Bedlam at the Bank as it was called by the Phillies radio announcer. And to basically just not react? It’s so out of character for him. And I saw a lot of people attributing that to like, he expected it, you know, he expects this of himself. And I’m like, I, I don’t think that was it. I write–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –that as he doesn’t know where he is.
ALEX: Right. The, the Bryce Harper that we know expects this of himself and still shows every emotion like known to man, right? This is the guy who could like hype up a funeral, you know? Like he could get the vibes going in there. We didn’t even talk about the pandering which is like another one of these things. I’m like–
BOBBY: I know.
ALEX: –I like–
BOBBY: Him, him name dropping Wawa in his postgame.
ALEX: Bro, like come on!
BOBBY: Because of [36:59] has thing?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Wawa is the ultimate winner of all this.
ALEX: It’s so good, you showed me the picture of a couple Phillies just smoking cigarettes, not cigars, ci-ga-rettes.
BOBBY: Just stogies.
ALEX: I don’t remember which Phillies player it was just had a Budweiser box on their head giving an interview. You know, I’m like, this is to baseball team.
BOBBY: Incredible South Philly energy from this team.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Okay, Alex. That’s all the baseball talk for today. Why don’t we take a quick break? We’ll come back. We’ll, we’ll do some pandering ourselves to the Swifties.
[37:31]
[Music Transition]
BOBBY: I have a question for you, do you remember how our Taylor Swift fandom became such a central feature of Tipping Pitches?
ALEX: Is this, is this a question you’re quizzing me on? Or you’re genuinely wondering?
BOBBY: No, I’m genuinely wondering. Because like the first time I remember was the 200th episode mailbag. Where, you know, we had dropped Taylor Swift songs into the podcast, we had been asked about it on occasion. We had talked about new Taylor Swift music. But we were asked repeatedly about it on the 200th episode mailbag, and we answered it and gave our full sort of Taylor Swift, long form opinions. But now it’s just like a thing that people expect from us. There’s a Taylor Swift channel, in our Patreon Slack.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So how did it start? This is just a case of us following our passions?
ALEX: I mean, I guess so, like you said, we, we were dropping Easter eggs for the listeners. So, I think we’d been teasing it for a while.
BOBBY: You should start like emphasizing random words when you talk on the podcast and people are going to see their tracklist.
ALEX: I know I–
BOBBY: When they drop an album, from when they drop an album, teasing.
ALEX: The Houston Ass.
BOBBY: We’re dropping a song named Ass?
ALEX: No, I, no, I don’t actually remember. I mean, I remember being in the throes of kind of the, the initial months of lockdown in 2020. And doing the project or just listening to her discography front back and–
BOBBY: Oh, yes.
ALEX: –trying to kind of rank it and I think that’s how we and then–
BOBBY: I started doing that.
ALEX: –you started doing that and then we started kind of interfacing–
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: –about it. And so it just–
BOBBY: And there was no baseball to talk about.
ALEX: –no baseball to talk, about so naturally, it just kind of lended itself to discussion on the podcast. I really think, again, it was pretty organic, I, I think.
BOBBY: Yeah, there’s nothing pandering about it.
ALEX: No!
BOBBY: I would love it if like our listeners started just like conspiratorial-ising about us. The way that people do about Taylor Swift, maybe I don’t know what I’m asking for. Like maybe I don’t know what I’m getting myself into. But if people were just treating it like, oh my God, they’re gonna drop a new double pod. Like next Friday, they’re dropping two pods back-to-back.
ALEX: God.
BOBBY: There’s a secret feed that they released an extra pod two and if you find it you’ll have four years of pods to go back and listen to.
ALEX: Did it sound like Bobby was holding the microphone upside down during this recording, guys? What does that mean? That it sound like?
BOBBY: They’re secretly beefing. Midnights, Alex.
ALEX: Midnights.
BOBBY: Midnights. So, yep, keep singing. Just, just sing the background vocals. We listened to this album together, we had listened to it on our own multiple times before we listened to it together. And I would say we’ve listened to it fully through together along with our partners four times now, five times now?
ALEX: Yeah, four or five times.
BOBBY: So I’d say we’ve, we’ve basked in its glow, to borrow a phrase from our friend, Ososo. What do you think?
ALEX: She knows how to write a song.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: She knows how to, how to put down some tracks.
BOBBY: Goddamnit, Taylor Swift, you–
ALEX: Yup!
BOBBY: –did it again. Taylor Swift, the Astros?
ALEX: Right, she’s inevitable.
BOBBY: She really is inevitable.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Like, she’s just gonna put out 20 great records in her life.
ALEX: Do you ever, like think about like, like, what’s she gonna be doing like 15 years?
BOBBY: I do think about that. You know, why I think about that? Because I was thinking about when she dropped this record. And I was listening to it. And I was like, just a bunch of great songs on this. Maybe not the best song I’ve ever heard by her or anyone else. I don’t know that I would call her my favorite musical artist. Though I would put her among my favorite music- musical artists. There’s no reason to pit these artists against each other art is art. But I’m honestly proud that we like talk about this on the pod and like, talk about it critically and enjoy it and, and don’t feel any shame in enjoying it. Because like, I think back to, if I were to just reactionarily dislike this music, while also liking pop music from like the 1960s and ’70s.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Like, what would I have been like, then? Would I have just fucking hated the Beatles? And that would be silly because I love the Beatles, they’re great, they make great music.
ALEX: Okay. Beatles really just singing about women again, all right. We get it, you have girlfriend.
BOBBY: Perfect chorus, I guess.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I guess they’re just gonna write perfect choruses for the rest of their career.
ALEX: You seem pretty aggrieved. I don’t know what’s going on there. Once you fucking get over it, John.
BOBBY: Help, you should have got some. This is a, this is a great bit.
ALEX: Actually.
BOBBY: Beatles hater. Let’s bring this gu- I should be writing these characters down.
ALEX: I mean, you know this like, actually is a thing on the internet, right?
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Like there, there’s this–
BOBBY: Beatles and people had [42:33]–
ALEX: –kind of young reactionaries sort of like, The Beatles weren’t even good, and I’m like, allright!
BOBBY: [42:38] crazier.
ALEX: But there’s just like, they weren’t even doing anything special. I, wasn’t even this isn’t a Beatles conversation.
BOBBY: No, it’s not. But I do feel like it’s worth bringing up because she feels very much with how prolific she’s been. And how she’s explored sort of these tangential connections to what I would call her original sound. She, she has a Beatles like quality.
ALEX: Right, I mean–
BOBBY: Which is why I feel like I have luxuriated in her as a pop artist versus some other pop artists who have maybe made two or three records that are better than certain Taylor Swift records. Like the Carly Rae Jepsen record that came out the same day that as Midnights is fucking amazing! For a lot of different reasons. And, and I’m glad that I can experience them both on the same day, you know. But like, it feels nice to have an artist to feel invested in and to feel invested in it at the same time as other people is cool.
ALEX: Yeah. Like this is, this is what Beatlemania felt like? You know?
BOBBY: Fuck yeah! We finally got our own Beatlemania.
ALEX: Like catch be like shaking the gates outside the Taylor Swift concert, you know?
BOBBY: You see Taylor Swift come out. Except she’s so so much cringier than the Beatles, The Beatles were cool, you know?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But the thing about Taylor Swift is that you’d have to embrace the Grinch. That’s part–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –of the appeal. In many ways, this feels like our, our second World Series.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Which is ridiculous that we’ve gotten to this point. But that being said, let’s treat it like that. What were the highlights of this album for you? Either on first listen, or as you’ve sort of come back to it time and time again.
ALEX: I really did appreciate the sort of Sonic Palette that she created with this album that at once felt new and novel, at least to her and also was so clearly built upon albums like 1989 and Reputation that times even Folklore and Evermore, right? Blending the sort of smallness, the sort of intimacy that came with an album like Folklore. And the sort of hazy sense that we got with an album like 1989, I’m gonna go, right, like Reputation. And throughout at all that the, the sharp confessional songwriting that she’s been known for, right? It’s obvio- you know, it’s a, it’s a return for her almost more than it is like a, like a step beyond, right? She’s not, it’s not a reinvention of herself, it feels–
BOBBY: No.
ALEX: –more like a realization of a lot of the music that she has been making, right? And feels kind of confident enough to sort of sing about a lot of these topics that caused her a lot of anguish and grief and joy. And I know she says she grows older and not wiser. But like, there is a wisdom to this album, right? The wisdom just sort of being able to let go and celebrate these nights and mourn these nights, but recognize why they happened. I, I really appreciate it that. I also I’m just always amazed at her ability to write a hook. Even on the songs and maybe don’t resonate with me as much.
BOBBY: Yep.
ALEX: You know?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Even on songs like, like be jeweled, or even an extent, like vigilante shit. Which overall is kind of like a, you know, she’s trying on a little Billie Eilish. And–
BOBBY: Listen, we all fire off a meme from time to time.
ALEX: The production is a little, a little interesting, but like, overall. It’s fine, but you know, I still catch myself humming it, you know, it’s, it’s still an earworm.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And it’s been a really remarkable sort of, it, I don’t want to say it feels like a coda. But it does feel like everything’s coming together with her collaboration with Jack Antonoff. And I said this to, to you guys a few days ago, that I’m, I’m really interested where she goes next. And if she’s kind of reaching the limits of her collaborative abilities, with Jack Antonoff, who does cultivate a really specific sound, and specific space around the music, and who has pushed her into incredible artistry. Really push her beyond kind of, really pushed her out of her comfort zone, on some of her most recent albums. And I’d be interested to see what she does with that next, in a different style of production.
BOBBY: Yes, I agree. I think, you know, when you asked me about that, and when he talks about her collaboration with Jack Antonoff. And of course, a lot of the detractors of this album would say that there’s too heavy of a hand from Jack Antonoff and that, you know, even I agree with this opinion that he has sort of homogenized some of the more popular pop artists of the last 5 or 10 years as he has moved, moved a little bit away from his own band bleachers and move to more into being this sort of like producer god of indie rock and pop. I do think that in the macro sense, he has been great for her sort of, like, imagination of her own sound. Like on a micro sense, I do find some efficient, a little annoying. Like some of the songs just feel like bleachers songs that Taylor Swift is singing.
ALEX: Right, you listen to it, and you’re like, oh, yeah, that’s Jack Antonoff song, you know, you gotta like it.
BOBBY: But then other times–
ALEX: It sort like [48:16]–
BOBBY: –kind of like, there have been many times in my life where I’ve said, man, Jack really snapped with this one. And then Jack didn’t even write it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So that is impossible to divorce from the songs that I dislike a little bit. Is the songs that I love, that he’s not even necessarily credited with the songwriting credit on. But you know, like, that’s its own storyline. Like, to me what is really fascinating about this record, and what I think I really liked about this record is that it’s a distillation of probably her previous five records put into one. And you alluded to some of that but like, it’s almost as if she said, let me go retry 1989 now that I’ve done all this other stuff. Like now that I leaned all the way in on Reputation, and people hated it, although critically it was acclaimed and it’s your favorite Taylor Swift album. People hated it immediately and then came around to it once they listen to him on realize that’s really fuckin’ good.
ALEX: Yeah. Although they’re still detractors, and I implore you to listen to it again and just skip look what you made me do. That’s its enjoyment of the album, like multiplies unfold.
BOBBY: I know, if you just, if you just men in black, memory hold that, that song, that one song, the album would I think–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –much higher rated by a lot of people. But knowing everything that she learned from the, the records that came after 1989 and going back, and basically just like retrying, that same sort of like, instrument palette, of like a lot of sense. A lot of keyboards, a ton of [49:52], which you know, maybe you don’t necessarily think match perfectly to her sound. Especially we go back to her earlier records, you would never, if you played Taylor Swift the self-titled album, her first record and said in however many years ago, that that album came out? 16 years, she is going to make an album with basically no real drums on it.
ALEX: Right. She’s gonna make a song soft synth pop record.
BOBBY: You’d be like, alright, alright. Sure.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Sure. Because she was just gonna, you would have assumed that she would have just continued to dominate the sort of like, young bubblegum, country pop sound and charts that come along with it. Because she sold a shit ton of records and they were really good. Like, we were talking about how Fearless is just a fucking perfect album.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Just no misses on it, from, from start to finish more or less. But that felt very much like her perfecting the box that she was in. And these, these records feel more like, we’re lucky to see her just step out of the box intentionally and know what she’s doing by doing it. Like she’s maybe stepping into a different box of her own creation. But at the same time, like, there’s kind of a Taylor Swift album for everybody now.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Except for people who fucking hate Taylor Swift, which is, you know, I guess your prerogative.
ALEX: Yeah, but like, you–
BOBBY: Probably already tuned out by this point, anyway.
ALEX: Right, exactly. But like you said, it’s this sort of amalgamation and really almost a, a reclamation of her artistry in a sense. There’s a lot on here on this record that speaks to her current relationship, her past relationships, her relationship with the media and the scrutiny that comes along with it. And while she’s kind of addressed these various topics, to varying degrees of success pretty head on in the past there is something about her feeling at peace with it all that I think really resonates, you know. It, it–
BOBBY: Put it in the record, that’s what I want. Just put it all in the record.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like for musical artists that I love to listen to their music, make music about it.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And that’s what she does, you know.
ALEX: Like it do- like I don’t want to say it feels like an end of an era in a sense, but like, after the sort of pared down feelings of Folklore and Evermore and Midnights, like I said, I’m really curious to see kind of what happens next? Where she–
BOBBY: Help that dawg.
ALEX: –where she goes next?
BOBBY: Here comes the Dubstep album.
ALEX: Well, actually, do you want to know what is coming next? Because I have some breaking news for you.
BOBBY: What?
ALEX: So, your face got so serious just then.
BOBBY: What?!
ALEX: I, okay. She dropped the Bejeweled video about 40 minutes ago.
BOBBY: Shit.,
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Pause to watch.
ALEX: Of course, there are Easter eggs. That’s the MO, however.
BOBBY: What’s coming next is Reggaeton. East German hardcore punk.
ALEX: The thing is, she’s, I don’t want to get down this ho- this rabbit hole and sidetrack us. But like she’s so good at trying on–
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: –a different genre.
BOBBY: You know, what reminds me of actually can I, I want to go down the rabbit hole.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: Because that’s what people [53:16]–
ALEX: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BOBBY: You know what reminds me of?
ALEX: People [53:19]
BOBBY: This whole conversation is a rabbit hole. It reminds me of how star, leading actors, whenever they take a supporting role in a genre film, people just fucking lose their shit. And that’s how I feel about Taylor Swift sometimes where I want her to try on some of these more, I don’t, for lack of a better word like bespoke genres compared to what she’s doing like. And that’s what I really liked about Folklore and that’s what I really liked about Evermore even though I prefer Folklore, Folklore of the two albums, I think they’re just more individual song misses. Even if I think that she was, you know, pushing the boundaries of like writing sad music, you know? Which I really like–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –I love sad music, is my favorite kind of music to listen to because I’d love to be sad. But she’s just I don’t think she’s going to do that. She’s not going to like make an album in every genre.
ALEX: No!
BOBBY: Nor should she, she should, she’s a pop artist.
ALEX: Right, exactly. I mean, I think that like, what she enjoys and what works really well for her–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –are these kinds of like brief–
BOBBY: Flirtations.
ALEX: –flirtations, right. Songs like Paper Rings, songs like, to an extent State Of Grace. Songs–
BOBBY: Oh, yeah!
ALEX: –like–
BOBBY: Rina rock, let’s go!
ALEX: Yeah, exactly. She was like–
BOBBY: That song is like–
ALEX: –she was like, Yeah, I can do U2. Yeah, Bono, Bono who?
BOBBY: First song I’m just going to write a U2 song and now you know what this album is about. Anyway, back to the breaking news, Bejeweled music video drops. Just gonna write a Screamo record next.
ALEX: I would eat the shit up. I mean, you know, like, I, I was–
BOBBY: Seven people in the world to buy it and we would be five of them. Five from different bank accounts, different email addresses.
ALEX: I, I didn’t realize that I had accidental posted like a, a thrash metal core band song on my Instagram story and then immediately after that it was the release of Midnights. Like the duality of man, right.
BOBBY: Taylor Swift Prog-Rock record.
ALEX: Again–
BOBBY: She’s writing an all five for this rush songs. This is the bit that won’t die. I’m just gonna keep–
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: –saying genres that I can think of.
ALEX: Yeah, I, early 1900s industrial labor.
BOBBY: Just like Damien song? Union hymns? Bro, Taylor Swift drops the union songs record. Fuck it, that’s an emergency pod for us if I’ve ever heard one.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That might be an emergency, new feed. This makes Taylor Swift Podcast.
ALEX: I mean, once we reach the point, I don’t know where we are on this podcast. But once we reach the point where the Taylor Swift conversation–
BOBBY: Is longer than World Series conversations?
ALEX: –is longer than baseball conversation, World Series conversation, then we need–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –to reassess.
BOBBY: You can call yourself whatever you want. But if the majority of what you talk about is something then that’s what you’re about.
ALEX: Prevailing wisdom seems to think that speak now. Taylor’s version is coming next. There is–
BOBBY: Next, like, in an hour? Or next like–
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: –in like 3 months?
ALEX: I don’t, I don’t think it’s like I’m dropping this at 3 am on, on December 12, or whatever.
BOBBY: Well, I forgot to tell you this but as a Spotify employee, I’ve already heard all the Taylor Swift–
ALEX: Oh, that’s true.
BOBBY: –they drop that for just employees only. I heard Midnights a couple years ago, actually. Like–
ALEX: For years.
BOBBY: Bro, some people be thinking that
ALEX: I know, I know. But like, oh, you just got access to everything.
BOBBY: Yeah, the entire library, all the demos, seven zip drive.
ALEX: Do you think Spotify is also a production company? Are they uploading their demos here? Like, all that to say, there is, I don’t even know like, I’m like [56:59]–
BOBBY: [56:59], yes.
ALEX: –to you on the podcast. Yeah, there’s a scene with an elevator. And there’s a, a collection of lights and the lights pretty, pretty clearly line up with the sort of colors and represent each of our albums.
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: Again, like you start to say it out loud. And you’re like–
BOBBY: No, no that sounds legit, that sounds, that sounds obvious enough for [57:22]–
ALEX: I mean here, I’ll even, I’ll even, I’ll even turn it around for you to see it–
BOBBY: Okay this is really exciting stuff.
ALEX: It’s really exciting stuff for the listener. Like–
BOBBY: Exhilarating.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Exhilarating stuff. This is great radio. You showing me a meme.
ALEX: There’s like a, a string quartet that’s playing Enchanted at one point in the video. There’s a, there’s a brass version of Long Live in the credits. Like I mean, like it’s a little she’s hitting–
BOBBY: Long Live is good. Well, too long, ironically.
ALEX: Yeah. I mean, we have plenty of time for speak now takes.
BOBBY: I’m, Okay, okay, okay, we’re done with speak now. Congratulations to the, to the sleuths. I have a just a couple of rapid fire questions for you to close out the Midnights conversation. Some that you think you will play the most often, go?
ALEX: Probably You’re On Your Own, Kid. Uhm
BOBBY: Wow!
ALEX: I love the sort of driving beat to it.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: It’s the kind of thing that like, if it was on my iPod at like, age 16, oh, my God!
BOBBY: Fucking-
ALEX: Bro, I’m like–
BOBBY: –student like the front bottoms.
ALEX: Like tears streaming down my face, You’re On Your Own, Kid
BOBBY: God, I wish I knew you when I was 16. I feel like we would have really got along based off the fact that we get along great now. And we’re not that different from when we were 16.
ALEX: It’s true. Yes. Just slightly more awkward versions of ourselves.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. We’re, I would say significantly more awkward versions of ourselves when we met each other. Okay, so the song you will play the most often is You’re On Your Own, Kid. How about the song that surprised you the most? You heard it and you were like, oh, that wasn’t what I was expecting.
ALEX: Uhm, the one. I mean, the easy answer is Vigilante Shit, right? Which is the, the biggest sort of detour that this album–
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: –takes.
BOBBY: Yeah, nothing surprising about that song to me at all.
ALEX: No. It’s like a, a, of course she did that.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: I think the one that maybe surprised me in the sense that I thought I wouldn’t come back to it. And I very quickly realized that I just like it was Karma. Because I occasionally feel like she’s kind of retreading old ground with this sort of antagonistic, almost like beef, in a sense, you know.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And, I think long story short off Evermore is a good example of that. Where it was kind of like–
BOBBY: Just think you weren’t going to like Karma because you’re a Scooter Braun supporter?
ALEX: Yes, actually. Yeah.
BOBBY: That makes sense.
ALEX: I only listened to the original versions of the albums, which are not even by Scooter Braun anymore.
BOBBY: You just play them in the background constantly, even if on mute. You’re just trying to give them the royalties. You have a big playlist on Spotify of all the stuff that Scooter Braun has ever produced.
ALEX: I mean, a song like Karma is one of the ones that I think like Taylor detractors would probably very easily gravitate towards. Because it’s like–
BOBBY: Horace is silly, it’s silly Horace–
ALEX: Silly and–
BOBBY: –that’s sounds amazing.
ALEX: –and it sounds so good. Like she is just so good at turning silly into what is effectively camp.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
ALEX: You know, and, and I feel that way with a lot of moments on this album, where I’m like, no–
BOBBY: Don’t think too hard about it.
ALEX: –no other person could say sometimes I feel like everyone is a sexy baby.
BOBBY: Bro, I don’t think she should have said that.
ALEX: I mean, she wouldn’t–
BOBBY: Real [1:00:45] says honestly for the Swifties out there. Okay, the best song off the album is?
ALEX: Realistically, Anti-Hero feels like the most realized version of the sound that she’s sort of going for.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And it also is a really–
BOBBY: I don’t think it feels, I don’t think it feels obvious to choose the single. Because she usually chooses bad singles.
ALEX: Yeah, that’s fair.
BOBBY: So, I think you’re getting the clear there.
ALEX: And again, like it features the sort of trademark flourishes that really divide a lot of people, right? It’s like that sort of overdramatization of things that she, you know, she’s feeling everything really big.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And this album is also one that really is like her her most vulnerable, right? In these sort of moments where she feels that self-doubt. And which like, of course she does, have you seen her? Have you seen everything that people say about her?
BOBBY: Yeah, they can be normal about this topic.
ALEX: Right, right. Exactly. And just as far as the one, I mean, that is both the one that I think is maybe the, the best one front to back and also the one I’m probably gonna get tired of the most. Because I’m well–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –listening to it a, a lot.
BOBBY: New shake it off.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Actually, it’s more like new Blank Space. To me–
ALEX: That’s fair, yeah.
BOBBY: –Anti-Hero is a lot like, You Belong With Me, like the adult like the 31-year olds, You Belong With Me, basically. Like the stuff that you’re insecure about, the stuff that you’re confessional about when you’re 16, 18, even like 20 is more like You Belong With Me. But the stuff that you’re confessional about when you’re 31 is a lot more like Anti-Hero. Especially when you’re 31, and you like one of the most, one of the 10 most famous people in the world. For the folks keeping score at home, the song that I will play the most is probably Karma because I think it will make it onto the most like playlists of mine.
ALEX: Right, uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Because it’s a real mood lifter.
ALEX: It’s very versatile–
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. Even if it’s not a mood lifter, necessarily thematically, I think sonically t’s a mood lifter.
ALEX: Right. Like you can drive to it. You could work out to it if you could want it to–
BOBBY: [1:02:49]
ALEX: –absolutely dance to it.
BOBBY: Probably the most danceable song on the album. The song that surprised me the most. And that I ended up really liking was Midnight Rain. Surprised me because it starts off with a kind of almost like a, like a gut punch of like a deep, edited voice. And I was like, woah!
ALEX: It’s, it is really jarring.
BOBBY: Where’s this going? It’s very jarring.
ALEX: I saw someone describe it as a jumpscare. Which is very true.
BOBBY: It was like Drake-ish, where–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –like, sometimes there’s just a sound that you’re like, why did Drake put that sound in the song? That song, that so- that sound did not need to be in this song. There was so many different points of this path where you could have chosen to take that sound out of this song. But I actually think it kind of worked.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So that was the one that surprised me the most. I love that song. The song that I think is the best. I don’t think it’s close, personally, for me is Maroon. That feels like an almost uncommonly passionate song for Taylor Swift who, who leans into camp. But when she is sincere in a way that I respect, it’s kind of sublime. Like it reminds me of dress in All Too Well emotionally even if not necessarily sonically, though, it does sound a lot like dress. I think it’s the best on the album by far and I think second Sweet Nothing, honestly.
ALEX: I melted when I heard that song.
BOBBY: It’s just, it’s one of the most beautiful songs she’s ever written. Probably her best love song that I’m not willing to say that definitively yet. But it’s just a, just a delightful song.
ALEX: And again, knowing the story behind it, knowing that she wrote it with Joe all in.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: For the uninitiated, that’s her partner.
BOBBY: Not her husband, though.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: She reiterated multiple times throughout this album. I saw somebody, forgive me for not even knowing in the first place who said this because I think that think that my partner Phoebe was the one that passed this along to us. Someone say that, that if peace was, if peace was Taylor song to Joe then Sweet Nothing is Joe song to Taylor. Which I thought was very, very sweet.
ALEX: Yeah. What did you, kind of quickly because we managed to turn a podcast about two subjects into an hour and a half one. But what did you think about the sort of 3am drop?
BOBBY: Bizarre.
ALEX: Either, either the rollout of it, or the actual content of it.
BOBBY: It’s just an album, just one album. I mean, like, there’s maybe some B-Sides, we’ve all gone crazy. We used to have CDs that just had B-Sides, you know. And we maybe didn’t think that they were part of the album, but at least it was on the same CD.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Like releasing one and then releasing another one three hours later was strange. And I don’t know to what effect it really accomplished.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well, I’m happy that there’s more songs.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean–
BOBBY: Like, bigger than the whole sky. That’s a very nice song.
ALEX: Yeah, that was kind of my–
BOBBY: I think Paris is kind of fun. Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve, pretty good.
ALEX: Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve is stunning. Like–
BOBBY: I know you are going with that.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Because sometimes you do stuff like–
ALEX: I, you look really concern.
BOBBY: Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve should have been fucking murder on the cutting room floor.
ALEX: Draw the cat eyes sharp enough to kill Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve. No, I think–
BOBBY: That was good, good joke. That was good. Thanks. Nice work.
ALEX: It’s a really incredible song. It feels like the sort of, it feels like a very mature retrospective on what was really obviously a painful time for her in her life with this relationship
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And in a sense, it’s a bit of a not so much a victory lap. But a sense that I came out the other side, okay. And I really regret all this. And there is a real anger to it. But there also is–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –the there is the knowing that, like, I’m, I’m good now I can talk about this.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: But I took something really, really meaningful from me.
BOBBY: It’s like a solemn resolve, like a weathered resolve, I would say, which, you know, producesgood art.
ALEX: Like, I, I think it didn’t make it onto the album. Maybe because it was too good. Like it, you can make the case that it’s the best song of the year. And, and the rest of it like I, I almost felt misled because she was like, this is kind of, you know, I wanted to give the sort of insights into the–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –process, the songs that didn’t make it, but that we were working through and I was like, Oh, this is going to be fascinating, because it’s going to be a look at her–
BOBBY: Releasing imperf- imperfection.
ALEX: Right, exactly. This is your–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –creative process, which we’ve seen more than the last couple years–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –with the, with the Taylor version releases, right?
BOBBY: Oh, I thought you’re gonna say with Miss Americana, the very honest documentary that definitely told the true story of everything that happened to her in that time period.
ALEX: I’m not going to address that.
BOBBY: I’m the film, bro, it’s my.
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: Just a really long commercials.
ALEX: Keep going, man.
BOBBY: I don’t even feel like I’m digging a hole. I think this is [1:08:00].
ALEX: I know, I know. They mostly just felt like songs with the same vibe that weren’t good enough to make the, the record and you know, for the most part. Like, I think–
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: –I think for the most part, most of them are somewhat on the central to the catalog with the exception of songs like bigger than the whole sky and Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve. Which are like among the better ones in her latter career catalog to this date.
BOBBY: Yes. So okay, we can put it in the pantheon then Would’ve, Could’ve, Should’ve with I Bet You Think About Me as songs that are better than maybe half the songs that didn’t make the album. But are also maybe too honest to–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –be in the album.
ALEX: Well, and then–
BOBBY: I Bet You Think About Me could have never come out because people would have been like, this is too strong from her at–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –the time. But you put that song on now, Bro, I’d fucking belt that song out right now. It’s one of the morning.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s on banks.
ALEX: There is something also that feels really Taylor Swift about her dropping these sort of whether they’re vault songs, or B-Sides or cutting four songs or whatever, that it’s like, oh, yeah, the song that didn’t make the record is also just–
BOBBY: Better than most songs.
ALEX: –a technically perfect pop song.
BOBBY: Yep. Yeah. Sure. Final question, Alex. Where would you put this in the Taylor Swift album ranking. And you know what, I’ll even let you abstain until next week, if you want.
ALEX: Well, I don’t even need to abstain because I have a general idea. I’m a little afraid to say it because I don’t want to run off. Because I, I really love it. I also don’t think it’s like, top three?
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: I think it’s angling for top five Shaler record to say kind of cautiously. It might be just out side of it like it’s, roughly in the better half of her discography is that specific enough? Like I’d, I’d probably put it around like five or six, honestly. Because I think that albums like Reputation, and Folklore, and Red, and Lover, are these really sort of unique artistic statements that came at really pivotal moments in her career that were really sort of defining for her. And this feels less like that, and more of sort of a dreamy retrospective that is maybe essential to her catalog. But it’s not going to be the one that you’re going to hand to someone to try and convince them to listen to Taylor, right? Like there’s a little bit of like, inside baseball that comes along with enjoying this album, I think.
BOBBY: Yeah. I, maybe we’re gonna get crushed for this, but I think it’s six verging on fifth.
ALEX: Yeah. I agree. That’s what I said.
BOBBY: No, I’m agreeing with you, too.
ALEX: Okay. Yeah.
BOBBY: We’re just agreeing with each other.
ALEX: it’s okay.
BOBBY: That’s what we do here at Tipping Pitches. Sixth, verging on fifth. For me, it’s behind Red, Fearless, Folklore, Lover, Reputation. I think it’s just slightly ahead of Evermore and 1989 and Speak Now. And then I think Taylor Swift, the first record. It’s just it’s not a full record.
ALEX: I mean–
BOBBY: It’s not, it’s a collection of very good singles with, with filler.
ALEX: And this is the tough thing about talking about this as you like, there’s no nuance. It’s an amazing record and she has also put out some other amazing records. And inevitably, like, something’s got to go fifth.
BOBBY: That’s why I’m saying it’s verging on fifth because I think it could, in my estimation, it could pass Reputation and Lover. Verging on fifth and sixth, verging on fifth and fourth.
ALEX: Reputation and Lover are so, not even Reputation specifically, although I, I like it’s my personal favorite. Although I don’t really even know necessarily that like it’s her top to bottom best.
BOBBY: Because it’s not. It has her worst song on it.
ALEX: It–
BOBBY: It also has–
ALEX: –well, I don’t–
BOBBY: –[1:12:05] favorite song.
ALEX: –I Don’t Wanna Live Forever wasn’t, wasn’t on an album.
BOBBY: Bro, bro, I Don’t Wanna Live Forever is out of bounds for this conversation on account of the fact that it a Zayn song. We’re just not talking about Zayn. We’re not talking about One Direction. We’re not talking about Zayn Malik. Who is a problematic man who makes occasionally good pop songs but mostly bullshit.
ALEX: Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. No, I think Lover is really good. The rosie sort of cotton candy–
BOBBY: Just a couple of misses.
ALEX: It has a couple of misses, I mean–
BOBBY: As more misses than this album, let’s be honest.
ALEX: Well, yeah, because it’s a longer album. I think if she includes the seven tracks, but editing matters. I mean, it does. I mean, this has kind of always been her thing, right?
BOBBY: The audio editor and me is like just fucking cut some of these novels, bro.
ALEX: Well, I, I mean, I know this is a sort of recurring theme and that she is so prolific that her album sometimes feel a little stuffed to the gills to the point where you’re like, I didn’t need–
BOBBY: Miss Americana & the Heartbreak Prince?
ALEX: –like, like a third of Red.
BOBBY: That’s actually really true.
ALEX: Which actually might be her–
BOBBY: Best album.
ALEX: –best album.
BOBBY: Yeah. This has been a wonderful–
ALEX: Oh, my God.
BOBBY: –fruitful, insightful. long–
ALEX: Did we do it? Did we make it?
BOBBY: –conversation about Taylor Swift.
ALEX: Was, was the Taylor one longer?
BOBBY: I think it was.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: I’ll have to let you know in the edit tomorrow when you wake up after I edit this at four in the morning.
ALEX: We’re gonna have to really kind of–
BOBBY: Steel ourselves for the response?
ALEX: Well, I, I mean that, but I’m just gonna say maybe for the sake of our listeners.
BOBBY: Gonna have to sign post about it the last 15 minutes of this episode.
ALEX: Yeah. And, and you know, maybe take a, take a break for a week or two, talking about Taylor or not or, or go all in.
BOBBY: No, I think we can take a break. I think that’s fine.
ALEX: I think that like we’ve had a lot of pent up energy over the last week or two.
BOBBY: This is just what driving our interest.
ALEX: That was coming towards us. Exactly. We’re not–
BOBBY: We had four days, blame Rob Manfred.
ALEX: Right, exactly. I mean, we’re not going to talk about the World Series three weeks after it’s over, right? We’re going to take a break from it.
BOBBY: Exactly.
ALEX: We still think about it.
BOBBY: Thank you for listening to another episode of Tipping Pitches. My apologies for not thanking the new members of the Patreon this week due to technical difficulties this podcast came together at the last minute. So my apologies to you folks, I will thank everybody at the end of next week’s episode dating back to this week. If you’d like to sign up for that Patreon it is patreon.com/tippingpitches. You can contribute at the $5, $7, or $12 level for various perks at those levels. And at any of those levels, you will get access to our wonderful Slack which has been very active, very informative, very entertaining. A very nice companion to the Major League Baseball playoffs. Which despite 55 minutes of Taylor Swift conversation are still going on. Be a great place to be during the World Series. Alex, is there anything else to leave the people with? Do you want to rank your top 5, 5th tracks on Taylor Swift albums?
ALEX: You mean the delicate and the rest of them?
BOBBY: Let’s–
ALEX: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.
BOBBY: This is how you tease content.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You say something like that–
ALEX: And then we sign off.
BOBBY: –dunk all over the All Too Well people, big All Too Well. You dunk all over.
ALEX: I know, I mean–
BOBBY: Because Delicate is a perfect song.
ALEX: That’s an absolutely perfect song. I mean, that was like, the best case scenario of the Reputation era was it coalescing into that.
BOBBY: Yep. Okay, can you please end this podcast?
ALEX: That’s it, I’m closing my computer. I’m logging off for a week.
BOBBY: We appreciate everybody. We appreciate everybody who made it to the end of this podcast. And we will be back next week talking about the damn World Series. We’ll see you then.
[1:15:52]
[Music]
[1:16:13]
[Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most, Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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