Alex and Bobby talk about Alex Rodriguez’s liquidity concerns and how long it would take him to get to 700 home runs if he came out of retirement. Then they talk with Allison McCague of A Pod of Their Own about this year’s Dollars4Dingers fundraiser for the National Domestic Violence Hotline and how you can get involved. Finally, they bring on Eugene Freedman, a union lawyer and baseball writer, to discuss the mechanics of unionizing minor league baseball, what to expect from the league in the coming weeks, why the timeline is important, and more.
Follow Allison on Twitter @PetitePhD and Eugene @EugeneFreedman.
Links:
Dollars4Dingers spreadsheet
Should we be concerned with A-Rod’s finances?
Tipping Pitches store
Tipping Pitches Patreon
Songs featured in this episode:
Jazmine Sullivan — “Pick Up Your Feelings” • Tom Petty — “Saving Grace” • Kacey Musgraves — “Biscuits” • Cam’ron — “I Hate My Job” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and, and, and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about? That’s amazing! That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex, do you have any updates for the listeners on your quest to become Alex Rodriguez’ protege?
ALEX: You know, so I did, I looked into this the other day.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Because I was curious to see if I could find what you were talking about his, his professional development, seminars, whatever they are. And I was having trouble actually tracking anything down–
BOBBY: That’s because I just made them.
ALEX: Are you serious?
BOBBY: Well, like not, I didn’t actually make them up out of thin air. It was like something that I kind of like thought that he did. You know like I, that was like–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –65% sure that this was the service that he offered.
ALEX: Right. Well, he does do speaking engagements.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: So I think that we could reach out and book him with some of that sweet, sweet Patreon money for our own personal professional development seminar.
BOBBY: Well, that’s a question like, would he do a speaking engagement as a podcast appearance for everyone in the world to hear? Or is this was sort of like a closed–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –door event like Hillary Clinton at Goldman Sachs?
ALEX: That’s exactly what it’s like.
BOBBY: I think it is. Because I’m just gonna give away the goods on wax.
ALEX: Well you- your right.
BOBBY: The reason that I asked is because Alex Rodriguez’ finances are in the news once more. And I was hoping that maybe you had become his protege. And you could sort of shed light on this story for us.
ALEX: Unfortunately, he keeps me away from the numbers. I don’t really, I don’t really get to see that, see that side of things. So when it all goes belly up, I’m going to be, I’m going to be finding out when you do. I’m going to be, I’m gonna be on, on indeed.com, like, wow!
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: Let’s see how quickly things change.
BOBBY: Well, he didn’t keep Josh Kosman of the New York Post away from the numbers. According to Josh Kosman of the New York Post. Alex Rodriguez only paid for 7% of the first 20% that he and Mark Lor invested in the Minnesota Timberwolves. The second 20% is due in September. And our man A. Rod. is again short on liquid money, his reporting says. He’s not liquid enough. He’s making mistake number one, Alex.
ALEX: Got to have that cash on hand pass under the mattress.
BOBBY: Deal flow?
ALEX: Should we be concerned about him?
BOBBY: I don’t know. So here’s why I wanted to talk about this. Hasn’t he been through enough? Him and J.Lo breakup, and that’s part of this, is the breakup and him trying to maneuver his assets along with Jennifer Lopez is making him slightly less liquid. So he already lost out on the New York Mets. His favorite team growing up because of Keith Hernandez. He is about to be passed by Albert Pujols. He’s for home runs shy of 700. He’s posting sweaty workout videos three times a day. Hasn’t this man been through enough? Just let him have the Minnesota Timberwolves! This is funny money anyway.
ALEX: Just give it to him.
BOBBY: Just give them to him!
ALEX: Right. We can see how much he enjoys it, right? Like–
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: –it will make him feel so good.
BOBBY: The smile on his face as he holds this Wilson basketball and the stock photo that appears with him and Mark we’re holding basketballs every time and there’s a story written about the Minnesota Timberwolves. He just looks so happy in a way that we haven’t seen him in quite a while.
ALEX: Do we know the sum that he needs to, to raise? Like, do we know what that 20% chunk looks like?
BOBBY: It’s 20% of 1.5 billion. So like 300 million, but he only needs to have half of that. Although he didn’t pay half of the first 20%, so I think he has to make up the, the difference. So I think he’s like kind of on the hook for like 450 million right now, which is, is a lot.
ALEX: That, that is a lot, he doesn’t have that.
BOBBY: According to you is as his pro- are you speaking, are you speaking in your capacity as his protege?
ALEX: This is off the record.
BOBBY: Or are you speaking your capacity as a host of Tipping Pitches Podcast?
ALEX: I’ve not seen it in his wallet.
BOBBY: So friend of the show, frequent Tipping Pitches, questioner, Becca asked in the Slack. How many at bats would it take him to come back and reach the 700 home run mark? He’s four shy. Albert Pujols is right on his tail. Do you think that his quest to come back at this age after all this time and all these stories and all of his time in the booth at ESPN. And his time on the KayRod Cast, and his comments in the Derek Jeter documentary. And everything that’s happened since he retired. Because it sort of unseremonestly, in the middle of a baseball season. Do you think that that could garner him $450 million to make up this debt?
ALEX: Him hitting four home ru- like, could he parlay that–
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: –into some sort of, some sort of deal?
BOBBY: I mean, he did sign the best contract in baseball history.
ALEX: That’s true. I think he might, he might struggle to get 450 million out of that.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I think I, here’s the thing to, to address back his question. I think he could do it.
BOBBY: Oh, yeah.
ALEX: Like–
BOBBY: Oh, yeah.
ALEX: –like I think if–
BOBBY: Can he still hit dead red, I believe it.
ALEX: If you, if you gave him a month, I think you’d get there. He obviously, he had petered off at the end of his Yankees career. He had, he had hit nine–
BOBBY: I like that petered off, that’s a new one.
ALEX: And–
BOBBY: Petered that like you combine petered out and tapered off, I love it. He petered off.
ALEX: Nine home runs–
BOBBY: In his sixth seasons?
ALEX: –in 65 games, in- yeah in 65 games.
BOBBY: Oh my God, that’s more than I would have guessed. That home runs in 65 games like he could DH in the league right now, with some of these–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –some of these hitters [6:07]
ALEX: Yeah. But that is six years ago, right? The game has changed. A. Rod. himself has changed.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: But again, like you said, we’ve been seeing him at the gym day in and day out.
BOBBY: He’s not putting in that work for nothing.
ALEX: He’s trying to get himself that slowpitch softball contract.
BOBBY: To answer back his question, I think he could do it in 400 plate appearances. One home run–
ALEX: Really?
BOBBY: –for every 100 plate appearances.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Do you [6:35]–
ALEX: I think–
BOBBY: –lower or high?
ALEX: I think that’s high, I think he could do it in less. I think he could do it in like 250.
BOBBY: 250? Geesh! James McCann could never. Can A. Rod. catch? Just wondering, you know, just one man’s fan wondering aloud.
ALEX: Aside from catching strays from the New York Post about his, his liquidity.
BOBBY: Okay, we have an exciting Podcast coming up for you. We talked for a long time with Eugene Friedman, who is a mainstay on baseball and labor Twitter for his actual legally backed up opinions. He is a labor lawyer. Who is a great follow about CBA matters and minor league unionization matters. We focus primarily on the minor league unionization news. We also talked with Allison McCague, who is one of the hosts of A Pod of Their Own, which is a New York Mets podcast. Part of the Amazin’ Avenue SB Nation suite of Met’s podcasts, I’m big fan of that show. Talk to Allison about their Dollars For Dingers drive. It’s another great conversation. We’re gonna answer a couple more listener questions. We will talk about the MVP. I don’t really know. I don’t know if people need to hear more people talking about the MVP. But before we do all of that exciting stuff, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[7:56]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: All right, thank you to our new patrons from this past week, Emily and Oscar. Alex, we received an important question in the Slack a few weeks ago now at this point, but we haven’t answered questions. Much recently in the last few episodes, we’ve had a lot going on. This question comes from Dan, who is a big Mets fan, active member of the Slack. Dan asked, how much of a deal breaker is your baseball life? I thought this was a pertinent question for us to answer on this episode, since we’re recording it about 16 hours after I attended the Mets worst game of the season. A 7-1 loss to the bottom of the barrel, Washington Nationals, a five run top of the ninth inning. And I needless to say was not in a good mood after that performance. I attended that game with my partner. And so I thought maybe it was a fruitful thing to talk about, how much of a deal breaker is your baseball life? This question spurred more conversation in the Slack than just, just about anything that has happened in the baseball world outside of minor league unionization. So I turn it to you first, Dan elaborates, if someone won’t participate in or appreciate your baseball life, are they less likely to be in your life? Has your dedicated fandom caused a divide in any relationships romantic or otherwise? Or stopped one from growing further?
ALEX: Luckily, I’ve never been in a position where I’ve had to choose between a person I love and, and a, a mid August A’s game against the Rangers. I suppose the question kind of depends on some of those, those things that Dan included at the end of his question, right? Like–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –does the person need to actively participate in my baseball fandom? Which is nice. But is that going to be the deal breaker? No. Does the person actively disparage my, my baseball fandom? That might be a bit of an issue. But, but, but you know, I, I have things as my, as is my partner that interests one of us more than the other. Like I do think there’s a deal breaker element in there, you know.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And I would, I think I would try and kind of lay the groundwork for sussing that out very early on, you know. I had my, my first date with my partner was technically a, a Yankees game.
BOBBY: Is that true? That’s so sweet, I didn’t know that.
ALEX: Yeah, it was Yankees-A’s.
BOBBY: I actually probably didn’t know that and I just forgot it. Because that was a period of time in my life where I just wasn’t remembering that many things.
ALEX: Dark days. Yeah, yeah. But like that felt like a good omen, you know. If you can, if you can float that, and the person does not run the other direction, feels like you’re in good hands.
BOBBY: The reason I wanted to answer Dan’s question is because, honestly, so I agree with what you’re saying. There’s probably a deal breaker element if the person just completely disregards your love for baseball. Because let’s face it, baseball is a huge part of our lives, as it is probably a huge part of most of the people listen to this podcast lives. But more likely my baseball fandom is the deal breaker for the other person. So–
ALEX: Right, yeah.
BOBBY: –it’s not on them, it’s most likely on me. Which I think is a, a useful reminder, as we head into the late days of the regular season. As we head into a potential Mets playoff run in October. It’s a useful reminder for me to speak out loud that I might be breaking some deals with people in my life by my via my behavior when the Mets make the playoffs. We’ve never done this podcast–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –when the Mets have been in the playoffs.
ALEX: Yeah, and let me tell you, that’s a, that’s a time to be around Bobby. You will see a side of him you’ve never seen before.
BOBBY: Suffice to say not many people will be seeing that. We will not be doing any live streams during the Mets playoff run in October of Mets games. That’s, we can do other games. We can do other games, but I don’t think I want to be in front of a computer. I don’t think I can stay in front of a computer for that long, honestly.
ALEX: No big, big pacing energy, big pacing energy.
BOBBY: We needed, we just needed to answer Dan’s question because a lot of people were wearing their hearts on their sleeves in the Slack. About how much of a deal breaker their personal baseball fandom has been in their lives.
ALEX: Which I. which I think kind of answers the question itself, the fact that people have such strong opinions about it.
BOBBY: If you’re listening to this, and you’re not in the Slack, or you just happen to not see this. Write in, call in, let us know how much of a deal breaker your baseball fandom is for you.
ALEX: I know. Have you, have you had any relationships and due to baseball, to your, your baseball fandom, or, or lack thereof? I’m, I’m really curious. Baseball has to have broken some people’s hearts.
BOBBY: That’s a good question, have you chosen not to become friends with the person because of their opinions towards baseball? I think most of the time I just roll my eyes. Whenever I meet someone new and they’re like, oh, you like baseball? My gerd, congratulations.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Oh, you seem really cool, thanks. But have you had that experience where you chose not to become friends with someone because of baseball?
ALEX: I think similarly, I, I haven’t actively not become their, their friend. I just might not address the issue for fear of getting worked up. I mean, there are people [13:34]–
BOBBY: Nonconfrontational Alex strikes again.
ALEX: That’s, that’s right, that’s right. There are people with whom I, I maybe won’t talk about baseball extensively. Because I’m worried about their, where their opinions might end up.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: That’s the closest thing, where I’m like, it’s kind of like, you know, we don’t talk about politics at the, at the dinner table. We don’t talk about how much Aaron Judge is going to make in the offseason. I don’t really want to know if you think he should give the Yankees a hometown discount.
BOBBY: I do find it sort of hard to start conversations with people who find out that I like baseball for the first time. They’re like, oh, you like baseball, and then where do you go from there? Because it strikes me as the most overbearing thing in the entire world for me to try to explain what this podcast is to people who don’t know about this. So–
ALEX: Right. I’m like, I’m like, I guess technically, yeah, I like baseball. But here’s the chip.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Here’s how it really works.
BOBBY: It’s more than that. It’s more than that. I hate it but I love it. But I’m critical of it because I love it. It’s ruined my life. But it’s also made my life what it is. So where do you want to start?
ALEX: It’s a problematic family member, right? You’re like–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I just he do everything right? Does he always say the right things? No. But, but I love him anyway. And, and I’m very [14:55]–
BOBBY: [14:55]
ALEX: –person. Exactly.
BOBBY: All right, well, uhm, speaking of baseball, improving and trying to make it a better place in person, I guess. If we’re talking about it as though it’s a human. We’re going to go to our conversation with Allison McCague to talk about Dollars For Dingers. Now, if you’re listening to this, and you don’t know about Dollars ringe- Dollars For Dingers already, we’ll get into a little bit in the conversation with Allison. But please make sure to check out the links in the description below or go find Allison on social media and Twitter to see where you can donate for this. This great fundraiser that’s very interactive and cool and a fun way to, to bring not just Mets fans but all baseball fans together.
[15:33]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: Okay, we are now joined by Allison McCague of A Pod of Their Own. Allison, hello, welcome to Tipping Pitches.
ALLISON: Hi, thanks for having me, guys.
BOBBY: Allison, you’re here to talk about Dollars For Dingers, which is a fundraiser you guys have been doing for how long now?
ALLISON: This is the fourth annual Dollars For Dingers.
BOBBY: Okay.
ALLISON: So since 2019.
BOBBY: Dollars For Dingers for folks who don’t know who aren’t fans of A Pod of Their Own, which is a wonderful podcast you should listen to if you like the New York Mets or you just like anything in the baseball world. It’s a fundraiser for, that raises money for every Met’s home run hit. And donate that money to the domestic violence, National Domestic Violence Hotline. So we wanted to have you on to talk about that and to talk about how this idea even started and how much it’s grown since it started. But of course we just want to hear what and we also want to talk about the Mets because the Mets were sick- were Mets sickos here now too. Even though currently as we record this, our Twitter has come a Yankees podcast. But–
ALLISON: Tipping Pitches: A Yankees Podcast.
BOBBY: It’s really [16:42] actually–
ALLISON: Like what bet did you guys lose?
BOBBY: Yeah, a really embarrassing public bet on the podcast. But tell us about, tell us about how Dollars For Dingers started?
ALLISON: Sure. Uhm, so a part of their own is, part of the Amazin’ Avenue: SB Nation site. And we are the podcast as part of that podcast network that’s run entirely by women. It’s myself and two other women who host the show together. And so we kind of when Amazin’ Avenue like expanded out its podcasting efforts from just having one podcast to having a whole bunch of them. We were sort of the podcasts that was like the women led podcasts. And you were also the one who talks about like social justice issues and baseball. And so obviously a big cause that’s been close to our heart for a long time that we’ve like, yelled into the void about on our podcast for a long time is, is domestic violence. And you know, the issue that is in baseball and MLB is like inability to deal with it. Not just MLB obviously, like all sports leagues fall short–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: –in this regard. But we particularly care about MLB on our podcast. So we, we just, we felt powerless for a long time. We were like, how, how much good? Are we doing? Just really just like screaming into the Icelandic void about this on our podcast,? Like it makes us it’s cathartic it makes makes us feel better. But like, is it really making any material difference? We really want to do something more. So that’s kind of how Dollars For Dingers came about. It started in the 2019 season. And it has grown beyond my wildest imagination to be something that we look forward to every single year and it just gets bigger and bigger every year. To date, we’ve raised over $25,000 for the National–
ALEX: Wow.
ALLISON: –Domestic Violence Hotline, between all the years that we’ve done it. And so it’s just been really, really humbling to see the outpouring of support. And every year the number of pledges growing and people getting the word out. It’s just been, it’s been really awesome. And so we’re really excited to make this one even bigger this year.
ALEX: So this culminates also in an event at Citi Field as well, right? Can you kind of talk a little bit about that, and the, the, the process of this whole kind of drive leading up to that, that, that date at Citi Field?
ALLISON: Yeah. So obviously, the, the crux of the fundraiser is, as you guys already said, it’s during the month of September, we collect pledges for every Mets home run dur hit- during that month. So you can say like $2 per Mets home run and we have a Spreadsheet where people put their pledges in and obviously like that raises a ton of funds. But in 2019, we also had an in person event at Mikkeller at the time it was Mikkeller at Citi Field. And we had a bunch of awesome prizes donated to us for the fundraiser, including from the Mets themselves donated memorabilia to us. And that was such a huge success. And we had so much fun that we decided to make that in every year thing. So sometimes during the fundraiser usually towards the end, although this year with the way the Met schedule is and like when they’re home games are, it’s kind of in the middle a little bit.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: But we try, during the second half of September, we always have this fundraiser this in person event. Sadly in 2020 we could not have an in person event because of the pandemic. But in 2021 we returned in person, but still sadly, we could not have it at Citi Field because there was no brewery in that space, where Mikkeller used to be Mikkeller close down during the pandemic, which we were devastated about. So we did have a catch and Astoria and it was still awesome. But it was like hard to get like the foot traffic the way that you get at Citi Field where there’s already like a built in like huge crux of Mets fans. Many of which don’t know that this is happening and will just like walk in and be like, Oh, hey, prizes, neat.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: Throw money our way. So we’re really excited to be back at Citi Field this year. So the EBBS has moved into the Mikkeller space where Mikkeller used to be, so now its EBBS. And we will be having it there at four o’clock in the afternoon on September 17, which is Saturday. The Nats are playing the Pirates that day. It’s the Gary bobblehead for the Gary, Keith, and Ron. Three headed bobblehead, the three part bobblehead it’s the Gary Cohen one. So we hope that there will be a very big crowd for that already without us having to entice addition- additional people to come. But we really really hope to see as many people there as possible. We will have so, so many awesome prizes, including memorabilia, signed memorabilia from the Mets. We, we have not, we cannot yet reveal which players but in the past we’ve gotten deGrom signed baseballs. Nimmo signed bat. So like there will be cool stuff. We also have t shirts from various, we have BreakingT Gift Cards, for those of you who know BreakingT and they, they’re working with Athlete Logos now. So you could get yourself a nice neon tea from that giftcard. EBBS themselves we’ll be donating a prize pack of beer and swag. So and there will be food specials and beer specials, 15% off at EBBS for anyone who is coming for our fundraiser. So it should be a really good time and it should raise a lot of additional money for the National Domestic Violence Hotline.
BOBBY: Judging by the, the crowd and the promptness of the crowd during the Ron Darling bobblehead game, which Alex and I attended just a couple of weeks ago. There will be no shortage of Mets fans, they’re early with, with some time to spare for that baseball game. Though, it’s quite intense, the, the desire for this bobblehead. So hopefully you can–
ALLISON: And I will say that this is like, I hate to reveal this to such a big audience. I want to like keep this secret close holds that only my friends and I know about it. I’m gonna do it because I think it’ll help our fundraiser a lot. I will say that the right field gate which is the closest gate to where EBBS is on EBBS is on Seaver Way in the old Mikkeller space. That is the best place to go get your bobbleheads where there’s no line.
BOBBY: Wow, you heard it here first.
ALEX: Ohhh, my God!
BOBBY: You heard it live reveal on Tipping Pitches, the true Mets fans know.
ALLISON: There were time there’s always a mess. Because obviously it’s the main entrance to get in. So people are gathered around the Home Run Apple, the Seaver Statue all that huge crowds. And it’s also right where the 7 train gets off. So all the people from the subway are going straight to the rotunda. But if you go around and the left field gate is like right next to the parking lot. So all the people who have driven are going–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: –to the left field gate. The right field gate is kind of tucked behind you have to like walk all the way around the stadium. So not a lot of people go there.
BOBBY: Not a little loud.
ALLISON: So if you want to get a bobblehead and you don’t want to wait and as long of a line. It’s right next to EBBS so you can hit up our event at four, go right into the right field gain get above bobblehead.
ALEX: Wow!
BOBBY: An amazing sales pitch. This is just an amazing sales pitch.
ALEX: Yeah, in like insider trading here on Tipping Pitches.
ALLISON: I know, I know. I hate to reveal my inside secrets. But it’s, it’s worth it, it’s worth it.
BOBBY: I love that you said such a, such a large audience. Like we’re, you know, we’re like we’re broadcasting live to millions right now. Not just a couple–
ALLISON: Just millions of Mets fans.
BOBBY: –a couple, a couple of 1000s of the most passionate people about baseball and labor on planet Earth.
ALEX: First of all, I think it’s really awesome that a lot of local organizations have gotten on board with this. I think it’s really cool that you’ve been able to rally support round this cause. And I think it’s really cool and also interesting that the, the Mets have decided to participate in this as well, right?
ALLISON: Yeah.
ALEX: And that’s obviously being one of the 30 Major League Baseball teams.
ALLISON: Right.
BOBBY: Famously.
ALEX: And, famously.
BOBBY: Sometimes not really.
ALEX: Right, yeah. It depends on the year.
BOBBY: Sometimes by name only.
ALEX: But that, that strikes me is really kind of interesting given that a lot of times the teams are the ones who are the problems, right? When it–
ALLISON: Yup!
ALEX: –comes to dealing with issues surrounding domestic violence as it pertains to players and that sort of thing. What was your kind of guy’s reaction when that the prospect of that sort of partnership first bubbled up? Was there any like, no, absolutely not. I mean, I can’t, I can’t imagine like you, you can’t look for a better partner than, than that. But I’m curious how you guys felt about that?
ALLISON: Right. And, and you know, the Mets are not innocent of this. Like they brought back Jose Reyes after they knew that he was an abuser. And that it was like, that was kind of one of the biggest like, things that we talked about on our podcast that sort of led to this. That was like a huge, like fire in our belly driver was how upset we were at the mess for bringing back Jose Reyes, knowing that he was an abuser.
BOBBY: And it was something that lasted so long, like it was right in front of everyone’s face for so long. And it was just a mistake from the very beginning.
ALLISON: Yep. And you know, and they, they put him out there right next to David Wright on David Wright’s last game. He is, in fact, coming to Old-Timers’ Day. So it’s not like, it’s not like they remain, it’s not like the new regime has completely turned over a new leaf in this regard. So yeah, it was a struggle. But I think that, you know, with the new regime, the Mets are making a lot of progress, obviously, with Jared Porter and that whole mess. I think they’ve since taken seriously the bad reputation that they have when it comes to sexism and bad relations with women in their workplace. You know, we recently had Elizabeth Benn on our podcast not too long ago, and she talked a lot about how they’re really working to change the culture, and she’s a big part of that in their front office. So I like to think that we can be a part of that change ourselves. And like, you know, them sort of like associating themselves with this fundraiser and this cause.
BOBBY: Yeah, and I mean, I think it’s, what makes it so hard to talk about these things sometimes is that none of these organizations and Major League Baseball, certainly as, as a whole are like not really monoliths, you know. Like, there, there can be like 95% of the organization trying to do the right thing. And then the 5% of people who have the ability to sign Jose Reyes and bring him back–
ALLISON: Yup!
BOBBY: –are undercutting a lot of the great work that the rest of the organization is doing. And so, you know, it’s, it’s, I think, encouraging to see the willing participation in something that you guys are organizing and trying to for good. We were talking before the podcast started about the creative donations that people have decided to make. Do you have any favorite ones so of course you can donate $1 amount of your choosing per home run for September. But you can also donate for more obscure occurrences so within the world has the New York Mets. Do you have any of some favorites or examples for, for people if they want to–
ALLISON: Yeah.
BOBBY: –get more creative with it?
ALLISON: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. There have been so many already. I really love all the people that are doing hit by pitches which is like a thing that’s new this year. Like–
BOBBY: It’s, it’s kind of like the theme of the year.
ALLISON: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
ALLISON: Like I don’t think that that was like an extra donation in any past year. Like they would do, you know, like there are typical ones like deGrom strikeouts is a big one and things like that. And people will choose specific players this year. I would say that the most popular specific player Dinger choices are Daniel Vogelbach and Mark Canha.
BOBBY: Wow.
ALLISON: Lots of people are donating extra money for Vogelbach dingers and Canha dingers.
BOBBY: A real representative sample of the apart of their own fan base I think. probably.
ALLISON: I was gonna say, I think so, I think so. And it’s kind of like for two different reasons for those two guys say. I feel like Mark Canha is the most like in the spirit of the podcast. It’s like the people who listen to the podcasts are most likely like Mark Canha was probably one of their favorite players.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: Versus Daniel Vogelbach it’s just like we want to see the beefy boy hit dingers!
ALEX: I, there’s, there’s someone on here who’s donating $2.70 a penny per pound for each Daniel Vogelbach home run.
ALLISON: That is–
BOBBY: [28:29]
ALEX: Wow.
ALLISON: That is our lovely Podcast Producer, Brian Salvatore. And it’s, it’s great. I love seeing the, the creativity that people bring Linda Surovich, fellow co host is donating for every Edwin Diaz “Narco” and more money when Timmy Trumpet shows up live, which is happening. It’s not happening during September. So we had like a very hearty internal debate about whether that sound–
BOBBY: I think [28:56] it should be allowed.
ALLISON: –and we decided that it counts half. So she is donating extra because Timmy Trumpet is coming. But it’s not during September, technically during the fundraiser. But this year another new thing that I love to see that hasn’t been present on past donations is extra for playoff related things.
BOBBY: Yeah!
ALLISON: Like winning the NL East, Mets winning the World Series. How far they advanced in the playoffs? How many dingers they hit in the playoffs? All those things which are technically after September. But I will certainly allow it because it is that is something that hasn’t really happened in the past. A couple of times we had, you know, folks like, like throw in like $100 if the Mets win the World Series. Because you know, it is 2021 Mets and we know–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALLISON: –by September that they’re not winning the World Series. But this year, those donations are more numerous and they are serious because–
ALEX: Yeah.
ALLISON: –it might happen.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: You know, lot, lots in here about, about Braves losses as well which I appreciate.
ALLISON: Someone, someone donated for if, if the Mets [30:03] Spencer Strider in the final series of the year. That’s gonna be extra.
BOBBY: I was just gonna say if weren’t, if it weren’t so much work for you a really good donation would be like every time the Mets get a hit that’s under 80 miles per hour exit velocity. Because of how upset the Braves fans have been about their soft contact hits.
ALLISON: Every time a Braves fan tweets, screenshots of baseball’s, Baseball Savant pages of the New York Mets exit velocity.
BOBBY: Literally, yes. That would be doubly satisfying, doubly satisfying.
ALLISON: The very lucky New York Mets.
BOBBY: Well, I hope that our listeners will go check it out Dollars For Dingers, if you live in New York, I hope and you are able to get out to the 917 game, I’m sure, it’ll be really, really fun. Is, Allison, is there anything else that you want people to know about this where they can find it most easily? Well of course link everything in the description for people to click straight from their podcasts app. But if they are driving right now and want to get back to it later, what’s the best way to find it?
ALLISON: Yeah, so it’s currently the, the link to our Spreadsheet is currently the pinned tweet on the A Pod of Their Own Twitter account. So if you go to @apodoftheirown, and you go to our pin tweet, that is where you can find a link to the Spreadsheet. But if you are not like a person who is, who is on Twitter, which God Bless you, log off forever, I wish I could. If you’re not really a person who’s on Twitter, or like not wanting to find it that way, and you want to make a pledge and you like aren’t familiar with like Google Spreadsheets or aren’t comfortable using it. You can always email us aa.apodoftheirown@gmail.com. If you email us your pledge, I’ll put it, I can put it in the Spreadsheet for you.
ALEX: That’s awesome. Before we let you go, I’m curious because this is a really awesome project and very easily replicable. Ha- have you ever had conversations with, I guess other fans from other fan bases or anything? Who might be interested in kind of doing the same thing? Because again, like, like you said, it’s a, it’s a Spreadsheet that you know, you can, I mean, it’s a lot of work to put together but it doesn’t require any special infrastructure or–
ALLISON: Nope!
ALEX: –anything like that set up.
ALLISON: Any enterprising person with a certain reasonable amount of time can replicate this Spreadsheet pretty–
ALEX: Yeah.
ALLISON: –easily. We have in the past, I believe it was the first year we did the fundraiser actually. We partnered with Cuppa Cubbie Blue, which is the Bleed Cubbie Blue Podcast also run by women, Sara Sanchez. Shout out to Sarah, she’s awesome. So Cubs fans have been huge for us. They, we partnered with them the very first year and we sort of had dueling Spreadsheets where like the Cubs fans were donating in favor of Cuppa Cubbie Blue and we were dueling because we were seeing which team was going to hit more–
ALEX: Yeah.
ALLISON: –home runs in September. That year, the Mets won handily, just because you know, I mean the 2019 Mets did not make the playoffs, but the 2019 Mets had a ton of dingers. More so than that was the biggest dinger year as far as like the, the dollar amount. I mean, we’ve, we’ve raised more money as, as time has gone on, because more people have found out about it, which is great. So we’ve gotten more pledges, but as far as like the most home runs hit during the month of September 2019 Mets, the OG, still king, still king, but we’ll see if the 2022 Mets can beat them out. Who knows? I mean, part of that is that Pete Alonzo was like breaking over keyhole–
ALEX: Yeah.
ALLISON: –on record that year.
BOBBY: Yeah. Thank you Rob for keeping the juice ball around when–
ALLISON: I was gonna say–
BOBBY: –2019 Dollars For Dingers–
ALLISON: –can we, can we just for September?
BOBBY: You know, he’s got a like boxes and boxes of them. Like the juice–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –balls are in a warehouse somewhere. Can we maybe just like get access to that just for for charity?
ALLISON: Just for char- for, for good cause, more dingers please. Juice, juice the ball, juice those balls right back on up.
BOBBY: Allison McCague, thank you so much.
ALLISON: Thank you guys. Appreciate it.
[33:51]
[Music Transition]
BOBBY: Okay, thank you to Allison. Like I said, links in the description where you can go find out more, sign up, donate, all that good stuff. We’re gonna go to our conversation with Eugene Freedman in just a minute. But I wanted to talk with you first, Alex, what’s up? What’s up? Where’s your head on unionizing the minor leagues? How are you feeling? It’s, uh, we’re recording this a week. Since we found the news out. I guess there’s a possibility that the exact same thing happens to us that happened last Sunday night where we find out some huge fucking news after we have the entire podcast edited and scheduled. But other than that possibility, how are you feeling?
ALEX: I’m feeling good. Now that the dust has settled a little bit and I’ve been able to get my, my thoughts in order. I think talking with you last week really helped me kind of collect my, my thoughts. And I really appreciated our conversation with Eugene that you all will hear in a minute. Because I think it gave context to a lot of the, the news that’s come out. And also maybe assuage some of my concerns that I, I maybe have had around the unionization process. Which is going to be a long one, for sure. But I’m feeling relatively optimistic about their ability to get this done, in part, due to the fact that they’re, they’re doing it, you know. Like, as we said, it would be a massive undertaking for them to do this without some sort of confidence that they have the votes that they need to at least get the formal vote for a, for a union, right? So like, I’m feeling good, cautiously optimistic.
BOBBY: Yeah. So as we sit here to record this, it’s September 4, Sunday, tomorrow’s Labor Day. Eugene sort of alluded he, he made a little hint. And, and maybe by the time people are even listening to this, there will be some sort of announcement. I’m just gonna go out on a limb here and say that, I think on Labor Day, they might come out and be like, we have the 30% union cards, we’re filing with NLRB.
ALEX: Getting giddy just thinking about it.
BOBBY: That there’s something coming, we’ve heard, you know, whispers from enough people that there’s going to be some kind of announcement on Labor Day. So I guess we’re the, we’re the bum sitting here recording this podcast before we know what that announcement is. But of course, if it’s big enough, we’ll either do another emergency podcast, or we’ll just talk about it on next week’s episode. Because none of this is going away as well, as we’ll talk about with Eugene. Get into the nitty gritty of the process and the next steps and what this timeline sort of looks like. I don’t know, though, the one thing that we haven’t really discussed and didn’t, I guess we got into a little bit with Eugene. But the one thing that we haven’t discussed is Major League Baseball is deafening silence on all of this. Which the fact that they didn’t have some sanded down PR statement, ready to release to the public, is a little bit surprising to me. Like, I don’t know if it necessarily means that they were caught off guard by this news. Or if this is part of their strategy to wait and respond until the minor leaguers have demonstrated their support and filed their election. But I’m a little bit surprised that they’re not getting more out ahead of this. And I guess, if I’m reading it optimistically, I think that that sort of means that they’re a little bit on the backfoot.
ALEX: Yeah. And I, like you said, we, we get into this a little bit with Eugene and kind of what might be stoking, MLBs tendency to keep quiet, and why that might be a part of a strategy for them. But I do think we’re in a place like, neither of us are under the illusion that Major League Baseball will most likely voluntarily recognize the, the union. Rob Manfred is no friends to organize labor. And so maybe it’s not super surprising that they’re just gonna kind of let this thing play out. Which is not to say that I think they’re not doing anything, right? I think they’ve, they’ve likely already started organizing their campaign against unionization internally. But it doesn’t really behoove them to say anything, publicly right now, right? Because there’s nothing that would make them look very good outside of saying, yes, we support this, which doesn’t feel–
BOBBY: But that’s never–
ALEX: –doesn’t feel very likey to me.
BOBBY: –stopped them before is what’s so funny. Like, that’s never stopped them from going out there and shooting themselves in the foot before, especially with regards to labor issues.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But there was nothing that was going to make them look good in the pandemic, trying to shorten the season and pay the players as little as possible. But it seemed like Rob Manfred was doing Q&As every fucking week. If you can remember–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –that time?
ALEX: No, you’re right. I think that this situation is just a little more hairy for them, right? And a little more fragile, because they’re bound by–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –by labor laws–
BOBBY: The unknown.
ALEX: –right? And, and, and the unknown, exactly. But you’re right, that it’s kind of, kind of funny that all of a sudden they’ve wised up.
BOBBY: All right, well, we’re gonna get, we’re going to talk about this a ton with Eugene. So why don’t we just go straight to that conversation?
[39:09]
[Music Transition]
ALEX: All right, Bobby, we are back now. Joined by a guest who, it’s been a long time coming. We’ve, we’ve been trying to make this happen for a while and now feels like the most fitting time we could possibly make it happen. It’s Eugene Freedman, he’s the, he’s the Counsel to the President of the National Air traffic Controllers Association. He is a union lawyer, and a bit of a celebrity on, on baseball labor Twitter. Eugene, how’s it going?
EUGENE: Good. Good. I don’t think I’ve ever been called a celebrity before. My, my brother calls me media darling.
BOBBY: Well, there’s a few of us in this corner of baseball labor Twitter, you know that anytime, anything happens, we’re all doing our threads. You know, we’re, we’re talking about the same–
EUGENE: Right.
BOBBY: –topics and you’re one of those people.
EUGENE: Absolutely.
BOBBY: You’re one of those people for sure. And this is a podcast centered around baseball and labor. So celebrity amongst our listeners, I’m sure they know, they know your work.
ALEX: We–
EUGENE: Thank you.
ALEX: –we obviously have you here to talk about the, the recent news about minor league unionization. And, you know, we have some questions about kind of the mechanics of this and what you expect to see in the coming weeks and months. But, but first, I think we just wanted to get your take on, on did you think that this would happen either now or in the, in the near future? Because it’s, it’s obviously been a long time coming. But it never quite seemed that the conditions were, were ripe enough or that the political will was there on the part of the Players Association? So what was your, what was your kind of instant reaction to hearing about this news?
EUGENE: So a couple of things to preface this. First, I think the Advocates for Minor Leaguers have been really laying the groundwork for many years. They’ve been doing a great job of highlighting the atrocious working conditions, as well as the significantly below market wages that minor league players receive. And I think the, the, the real, I don’t, I wouldn’t call it icing on the cake, because it’s not a positive thing. Maybe the straw that broke the camel’s back was when Major League Baseball lobbied Congress to include in its appropriations bill a number of years ago was an omnibus appropriations bill. And kind of in the last minute in the conference between the House and the Senate, they included language that that basically exempted minor leagues from the Fair Labor Standards Act. Which provides for minimum wage and provides for overtime pay in excess of 40 hours in a work week. And, and child labor protections, which really don’t apply here. But, but, you know, when, when basically Congress said, and I believe that most people in Congress did not realize this, when, when they passed the appropriations bill, you don’t have to pay these players anything. I think that really–
BOBBY: Thank, thank you Congress, we’re not even realizing that much appreciated, guys.
EUGENE: Yes, yes. So I think that’s really when, you know, things, things heated up. Because that’s, that took the legs out of a long, ongoing lawsuit over minimum wage and overtime. That, that, the minor league players had filed as a collective action. And I don’t want to get into the specifics of a collective action versus a class action. But in FLSA, it’s a, it’s a collective action. But, you know, so I think all of that groundwork was, was kind of laid already. And the minor league players started to, I think, band together themselves. But you know, I’ve, I’ve been to a lot of AFL-CIO meetings. That’s the Federation, that much of organized labor participates in. Not, not every union does, and, and there have been some discussions recently at the last convention in Philadelphia that that happened in June. There was a AFL-CIO Sports Council that was established with the NFLPA with the Women’s Professional Soccer League players who had just joined the AFL-CIO. The National Women’s Soccer Team, also recently joined the AFL-CIO. And so there, there has been a lot of ongoing discussions in sports about improving working conditions. Particularly in those sports, where there are lower wages, women’s soccer being one of them, equity issues. So those things are being highlighted, not just in baseball. So I think that the time is right. I mean, you probably saw the, the recent survey results that said that 63% or maybe was 73%. I can’t remember the exact figure but of American support unions. And that’s the highest number in at least five decades. So that, that’s really kind of in the background here. And I had heard some things that were going on just in labor circles about the, the framework of potential organizing. And just as an example, my, my brother works for the Teamsters union. He told me that several former employees of the Teamsters had, had started working for an organization, they couldn’t say who. But what was out there laying the groundwork to collect authorization cards for minor league players. So, so I kind of knew that, that these things were going on. So I wasn’t terribly surprised. But I’d have been one of the very few who wasn’t surprised.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And I, and I really couldn’t break the news, because it wasn’t my news to break. I’ll be honest, I know some other things that are, that are on the near term horizon that I can’t share. Because I’ve been told that they are a confidential close hold. But, you know, I would expect more news in the very near future.
ALEX: Wow.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Tease. Okay.
BOBBY: Some tantalizing right there by Eugene.
ALEX: I mean–
BOBBY: So–
ALEX: –I mean, you, you, you tweeted, right, right before the news broke, basically that tomorrow is going to feel like Christmas for a lot of people. And indeed it did. You were right–
EUGENE: Yes.
ALEX: –about that.
EUGENE: Yes. Yes. So yeah, that’s what I was alluding to. Was another thing, I couldn’t, I, you know, announced that it wasn’t my news to announce. But–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –but I didn’t know about it. And I knew that, that the campaign was going to begin in earnest. You know, so I, so I did want to just put it out there that, you know, something exciting was percolating in the background.
BOBBY: Eugene, what do you make of the, the structure of this? Like how its unfolding with the minor leaguers, potentially joining the Major League Baseball Players Association. Whether they’ll of course be in separate bargaining units, they’ll have their own CBA and everything. But it wasn’t always guaranteed that this would be the structure that it would take. Now we had a union push for minor league hockey players a few years back. They’re not part of the same union that the NHL players are a part of. The G league union in basketball, was supported by the NBA Players Association or the, the NBPA. I always mess that up, the National Basketball Players Association. But they’re not formally in that union, I don’t believe. So there’s been a couple different models that they could have followed. Why do you think it did end up being authorizing the MLBPA to represent them in collective bargaining?
EUGENE: So I think a couple things are a factor. One is MLBPA has been very successful in negotiating with Major League management. I think also, the fact that Minor League Baseball was brought under the one baseball umbrella.
BOBBY: Yup.
EUGENE: And Major League Baseball now controls the minor leagues. You know, from top to bottom, I think that was a another key factor. So it is essentially the same employer. And then I think, also, this campaign is going to take a lot of money. It is a national campaign, there are a significant number of employees. There are, the, the employees are spread out across the entirety of the country. Which makes it very difficult to engage in direct communication. You know, a lot of the time organizing is done, you know, right outside the, the plant, parking lot. And, you know, in this case, that’s very difficult. But there are baseball teams in 30 cities. They all have communication networks to their minor leagues. Players get sent down on rehab assignments from the, the bargaining unit in the major leagues, and they’ve all been in the minor leagues, right? So–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –you know, in–
BOBBY: It’s a really important part.
EUGENE: –[49:02], right. You know, in, in other sports, you might skip the minor leagues, particularly in basketball. You may never play in a developmental league at all. But in baseball, almost everybody does. I mean, there have been a couple of players particularly pitchers, I think crochet was the last one to skip the, the minors entirely. Trying to think if there was anyone between him and John all or there may not have been, but seems everybody–
BOBBY: I mean like, you know, Ohtani came over and he was technically in the minors briefly because they had signed him on a you know, a prospect deal or whatever but–
ALEX: Mike Leake is the one that comes to mind for me who I think with the, with the Reds maybe? Or the Mariners jump [49:46]–
BOBBY: Now we’re just, now we’re just remembering some guys.
ALEX: Now we’re just remembering some guys.
EUGENE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, Ithink the only word was the biggest one, you know–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –in terms of like, making a splash when that I remember. But be that as may, like everybody has been through the minor leagues. They, they’ve also been there on rehab assignments. They know the players, I think particularly, it’s important in this organizing drive, that Major League Baseball has such strong ties, national ties between players. You know, Venezuelan players stay together in the offseason, whether they’re in the minors or majors. They, they Cabrera and Altuve kind of mentor them all. You have the same thing with players from Puerto Rico, you have the same thing with players from the Dominican.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And I think that those ties are going to be really critical here. And, you know, if another union, let’s say the, the laborers, International Union Laguna, decided to organize the minor leagues. They would not have that same connection to the players that the Major League Baseball players do.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And so I think it’s really critical. I think it’s really helpful. And, you know, I anticipate that, that because it’s such a high profile campaign, they’ll probably get some help. It won’t just be Major League Baseball Players Association doing the organizing. I think they’ll, they’ll get some additional help in the organizing process.
ALEX: Obviously, the season is winding down both for the, the major leagues and the minor leagues. Can you talk about the any potential challenges that might pose to this organization effort? I know, I know, you’ve, you tweeted a little bit about how their seasonal workers status. You know, makes it may be slightly more difficult for MLBPA to, to keep their arms wrapped around everybody, right? Because they’re changing teams, or they’re, or they’re graduating for the minor leaguers, or they’re not going to see a minor league stadium for three or six months or whatever. So can you talk a little bit about what the PA might be kind of having to face as the seasons went down?
EUGENE: Yeah, so there, there are a number of complications, both in terms of the, the logistical organizing. But then also in terms of the legal organizing, and I’ll try to separate them out. First, you know, you name some of the logistical things, right? The, the teams in the minors usually end right around now and then go into the playoffs, they, they will push back for the start of their season this year. So their, their seasons, the regular season will continue for a little bit longer. But you know, they are wrap, wrapping up. And so that makes it complicated. From a legal perspective, it’s complicated, because the union has to, you know, put out the these authorization cards. They have to be signed by at least 30% of the proposed bargaining unit, for submission to the NLRB as evidence of showing of interest. You know, normally, you want that within a pretty tight window of time. You don’t want that spread out over a very long period of time. Especially if some of the people, some of the employees are no longer in the proposed bargaining unit, by the time you submit the cards.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: Most, most unions also seek to have significantly more than 50% of the cards. Because there will be an anti union campaign in almost all cases, and you will lose some support to that anti union campaign. But in this particular case, you have employees who may not be tendered new contracts right away. You know, they, they may not be necessarily employees in the offseason until they get their next contract offered to them. Let’s say they’re in Low-A right now. And the team has control if it, if it wants it. Until those players become eligible for the Rule 5 Draft, right? So and if, I think it varies a little bit by age, you know, when they qualify for that. But it’s basically five or six years of minor league control, as far as I remember. But teams don’t necessarily resign or offer a contract to every player that they had the previous year. You know, some people are weeded out. Some people become minor league free agents and move teams. But they might not get picked up until spring training next year. And so, you know, I think that unless the player is a high draft pick they may not have their contract tendered to them until the spring. And so there’ll be a question at least, whether they’re employees right now, if the union does file its petition with the NLRB in the offseason. If it waits until the spring, it’ll much, you know, be in a much better place to say, yes, these are all employees of Minor League Baseball. You know, there are also, you know, a bunch of other questions I have, and actually hope to get some of them answered in, in, in the next couple of weeks. But I don’t know if they’re, they’re going to tell me until they, they file their petition. But you know, one thing I’m, I’m concerned about is Major League Baseball, potentially saying that, for example, Rookie Leagues doesn’t fit within the, the appropriate bargaining unit. That their conditions of employment are significantly different, because they play a short season. Because they’re all based in the same essentially one location, very little travel involved. That, that it’s, it’s significantly different conditions of employment, and therefore, they, they should not be in the same bargaining unit with low A through Triple-A. You know, we’ll see what, what makes the Players Association petitions for and whether Major League Baseball seeks to clarify the unit or challenged the, the bargaining unit definition. Many employers do challenge the bargaining unit definition, just to slow down the organizing drive.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: I wouldn’t put that past Major League Baseball. Because, you know, Rob Manfred is not a friend of organized labor. So he very likely will say, put up all the roadblocks you can, and one of them is to say that inappropriate unit require a hearing. You know, have their Regional Director make a decision. Maybe challenged that decision to the board. I mean, there, there are a lot of potential hurdles along the way. Now, if, if the Players Association gets 75%, 80% of the card signed, I mean, they’re going to ask for, for voluntary recognition.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And, you know, they should get it. But that doesn’t mean that they’ll get it. I mean, more likely than not Major League Baseball, who hasn’t put out any statement at all right now. Probably because they don’t want to commit ULP. But, you know, once there is a, and for listeners, that’s an unfair labor practice.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: But the, you know, when they, when they do file the petition, I expect Major League Baseball, or they may even wait until the Regional Director orders that election. I expect the, the Major League Baseball statement to go something like, you know, we support the process. And, you know, we’ll wait and see what the results of the election are before we make a comment.
BOBBY: Yeah,
EUGENE: I don’t think they’re actually going to weigh in publicly, even though they weigh may weigh in privately, with the players in whether they’re captive audience meetings or other workplace discussions.
BOBBY: Now, you brought up ULPs, we live in sort of a golden era of unfair labor practices taking place in broad daylight, whether that be Starbucks or Amazon or smaller places. I, when this news breaks, of course, you have a lot of people saying things like, what is Major League Baseball going to do? How scorched earth are they going to go? What are they going to try to do to really be back this union effort? And, you know, retaliatory practices are illegal for organizing. But there are certain things that Major League Baseball could do and, and kind of like try to guys underneath. While this is just us cutting a player or this is just us making a business decision about shutting down a team that has certain support or promoting people out and spreading out the support across so that there’s not the sort of collections of minor leaguers who are starting to band together with this union effort. Obviously, it’s impossible to predict exactly what Major League Baseball will do. But do you suspect that there will be some of that stuff kind of going on behind closed doors? And if so, it becomes so unwieldy because there are so many different minor league affiliates and so many different places to be able to fire you fi- to be able to file a ULP for all of these different individual cases. It seems like a 10-year long process. So I’m curious what you think about how messy this will actually get in practice?
EUGENE: Well, I think, you know, there, there’s a lot of little pieces to that question. But–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –you know, I think the primary thing to focus on is the statement that the Players Association put out two directly to the, the players that they’re organizing. One is that they’re going to keep the cards confidential. They’re going to share them confidentially with the NLRB. And that management doesn’t get to see those cards. So they in less, there are member organizers. And in this case, there might not be vocal member organizers, they may be external organizers and, and Major League player organizers. You know, if there are none, you know, member organizers, then they’re all protected, right? Their, their confidentiality is protected. Additionally, you know, they, the Players Association said that when they seek or if they seek voluntary recognition, they will use a third party verifier to maintain the confidentiality. So they don’t intend to show management ever until they are certified, who they’re, who their supporters are. So I think that’s really important here.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: I think, additionally, you know, like you said, there are some complications, right? But the general managers of the 30 clubs, also have a, a bit of a say here, and so did the 30. individual owners. You know, if Major League Baseball wants to blackball a particular player, but the team sees value in that player, they’re not going to necessarily go along with Major League Baseball. So I think it would be very difficult, especially because they have such a long developmental cycle on some of these players. And, you know, if somebody was, let’s say, Holiday, or who the number one, Zach Holiday, the number one pick.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: If, if he decided to be vocal, the Orioles aren’t going to do anything about that, right? They’re going to, you know, he’s he’s, he’s already moving through their system. You know, I expect next year, he may started High-A, you know, they’re not, you know, if he, if he’s organizing his roster, they’re not going to say, oh, let’s cut him. They just gave him 8 million dollars, right? They’re, they’re going to want to see value in that and, and they’re going to see him as one of the top prospects in your organization, especially now that they, they brought up Gunnar Henderson today, we’re two days ago.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: So you know, their teams like that are just not going to make decisions that are detrimental to their own interests. So I think there’s, there’s a bit of a push and a pull there. And I think Major League Baseball doesn’t have the same control. Because they’re a multi-employer bargaining unit that they would if they had full control over all 30 roster, team rosters.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And, and then their, their minor league systems.
ALEX: I know, there’s been some concern that Major League Baseball could do what they did just a couple short years ago, which is eliminate some minor league teams. As a result of this, as a result there as a, you know, an effort to kind of throw disarray into, into the whole organizing process as a way to potentially deter that support. Do you see that as a distinct possibility? I know there was some, some language that was negotiated over in the, in the CBA, where the Players Association said, we don’t want to give you the, the ability to eliminate more roster spots. But are there are there avenues through which Major League Baseball could say, hey, we, you know, we need to make this business decision, X, Y, and Z. These, you know, the, the trash pandas are now, are now contracted. They’re now an independent league team. Like, do you see that as something that’s, that’s a possibility in the coming, I guess, months?
EUGENE: So, you know, in the last contraction of the minor leagues, they, they made it so that every team has the exact same number of affiliates. Before that some franchises had more High-A affiliates or Low-A affiliates or I don’t think anyone had an additional Triple-A affiliates. But they may have had more, you know, in, in that rookie ball through, through High-A category. I think the Yankees in particular had a number of extra A ball teams compared to other teams. And so, you know, if they were to eliminate, they would have to do it, you know, league by league. And, you know, maybe they would consolidate Low-A and High-A or eliminate the there are two rookie ball leagues, so maybe they eliminate one of them. I don’t know that that would make sense to them just because in terms of the rookie ball leagues because, you know, they have enough draftees that they, they need two leagues for them. But and they did reduce the draft, but there’s still enough players, including unsigned free agents, who are undrafted, free agents, where they, where they like to have two rookie ball leagues. But, you know, if they were to do that, in the midst of an organizing drive, I think that would constitute at least the basis for filing an unfair labor practice charge.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: And I think it would likely lead to, to the General Counsel through a Regional Director issuing an unfair labor practice complaint. Jennifer Bruzzo, who is the General Counsel of the National Labor Relations Board now, has been very aggressive in pursuing unfair labor practices. And has asked for 10(j) remedies, which I don’t want to go into too much detail. But it basically asks for an injunction against the employer when they’re committing violations of the act that are so severe that they’re, you know, there may be irreparable harm. Elimination of, you know, 30 teams, you know, in this case, I think she would seek an injunction against Major League Baseball doing that.
BOBBY: Eugene, I’m curious, can you compare this? Or can you think of any comparison to a, a union effort like in the wider American labor movement that this resembles? Because it’s so, it’s so weird, because the MLBPA is such a specific union for such a specific sector. Minor League Baseball is so different than most union drives, because it’s happening in so many different disparate spread out places. It’s part of the reason that it took so long to get to this point. But for the most part, like when you are making union push, when you’re trying to get people to sign these cards, when you’re going into an election with the NLRB. It’s, it’s one employer in one place, joining onto a larger union, becoming a shop within the larger union. That’s what happened with me and my colleagues at The Ringer. That’s what happens in most places at most employers, this is so different. So I’m curious, you know, widening the scope a little bit, does this remind you of any thing from either recent or, or past labor history that you can think of?
EUGENE: So I think, probably one of the better analogies is, and, and because it’s a national unit with a lot of different locations. I think the best example are the airlines. And right now, and then actually, for the third time and probably 15 years, the Association of Flight Attendants is organizing the Delta flight attendants. AFA has unfortunately lost two elections. One was shortly after the merger with Northwest Airlines. Northwest had been union, they, they were affiliated with AFA. Delta was uno- unionized, but they were the larger company. And so they were and the larger group of employees. So there was no argument for successorship. And so they, they mounted an organizing drive, and they came up just short. A few years after that, they began organizing them again, and again, they fell just short. In this more positive union environment, with a positive union president, and they’re under the Railway Labor Act. So it’s the National Mediation Board as opposed to the National Labor Relations Board. But, you know, a favorable NMB, I think it’s, it’s more likely now that they will win their election, once they move forward with it. The National Mediation Board and the Railway Labor Act have slightly different rules for elections. Under the National Labor Relations Act, you, you vote by, it’s a majority of ballots cast, but under the Railway Labor Act, it’s a majority of the unit.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: So–
BOBBY: Just harder.
EUGENE: –it’s not just the ballots cast, you know, people who don’t show up to vote count as a no vote. So from that perspective, it’s it’s somewhat different. But because, you know, Delta has so many bases across the country. You know, many people are, are, are based in Atlanta, Minneapolis, Detroit, or Salt Lake City. But, you know, there, there are flight attendants, you know, based at almost every airport across the country. So this, this effort to organize is to an extent very similar. Because–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –you’ve got small groups of employees spread out all across the country, and you’ve got people who are already members of those unions also, you know, somewhat close or affiliated with them. And, you know, you have United Flight attendants, and you have a lot of the smaller carriers that are represented by AFA. And you know, they’re at the same bases. So they’re gonna be organizing their brothers and sisters at Delta. And Delta is a huge company. I mean, it’s one of the largest, if not the largest airline, they, they are already repres- their pilots are already represented. So, you know, it’s, it’s to, to an extent, it’s similar to Major League Baseball, in that some of the employees are represented, but not this, this large group. It’s not unprecedented. So I–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –don’t think we wouldn’t be, you know, it’s, it’s not too much of a administrative task for the NLRB, General Counsel’s Office to pull off an election.
ALEX: So I, we, we want to let you go here, because you’ve, you’ve been really generous with your time. But I’m curious, just what’s, what’s next in your, in your mind? Do we sit and wait for the results to come in? How are you feeling about this all? Are you feeling optimistic about, about their chances?
EUGENE: Oh, yeah, I’m very optimistic. I, I think, you know, before we get to wait for the votes to come in, I mean, we’re going to know when the Players Association petitions for an election.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: They’re going to make an announcement, they’re going to say, with 85% of card signed, we went to Major League Baseball and asked for voluntary recognition, they declined. And so today, we have filed a petition with the NLRB and we’re asking for an expedited election. I think, you know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna see a statement like that, that’ll be the next news. And, you know, there may be interim news saying things are going well, we’re getting a lot of card signs, but it’s not going to be, you know, process news. But when they make the announcement that they filed the petition, that’ll be the next news. And then we’ll have to wait for the Regional Director to issue an election order. And, and see if Major League Baseball puts any of those legal hurdles in the way
BOBBY: I’m, I’m optimistic just because this is such a huge step for the MLBPA in terms of, like reaching down to its most, you know, battered down workers. Like in a way that they haven’t been able to do in like the last couple of decades. You know, I think one of the criticisms that that gets levied against union like MLBPA is how involved were you in the wider American labor movement? And just this process at all organizing the minor leaguers who are being left out, you know, politically and in their workplace intentionally and being paid below minimum wage is such a, I think it’s a cool, it’s a really cool move. So I’m, I’m pretty excited about all this.
EUGENE: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just from, from that talking point, and I know it’s not true, but the talking point in the, in the management centered media, millionaires versus billionaires, when someone’s making $4,000 a year to play rookie ball–
BOBBY: It took a few years to get to a million.
EUGENE: –they are not million. Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: Takes a really long time to get there. I mean, even if you’re making $30,000 for six months playing in Triple-A, you’re not a millionaire. You’re not even making, you know, average wages, where you’re barely making poverty wages if you have a family of four. So, you know, most of these players are below the poverty line. And it’s important–
BOBBY: Yeah.
EUGENE: –to remember that, and it’s important to remember that, you know, everybody deserves rights in the workplace, and this is a big step to gaining them.
ALEX: Eugene Freedman, thank you so much for joining us. Do you want to just tell people where they can find your, your tweets, find your your writing, any work that you’re doing?
EUGENE: Sure. So yeah, my, my Twitter handle is at Eugene Freedman. It’s f-r-e-e-d-m-a-n. So there’s two E’s as opposed to the alternate spelling of Friedman. And, you know, most of my other writing is for my union NATCA, so, you probably don’t see that often. But periodically, I will pop up on baseball prospectus or FanGraphs. And I’ve got a, a number of things published at both sites over the years. So you can take a look at it, it’s probably not timely. But can help you kind of dive into some labor history in baseball.
ALEX: Eugene, thanks so much.
[1:14:38]
[Music Transition]
BOBBY: Okay, thank you to Eugene, thank you again to Allison McCague. Thank you for the five members of our Alex Rodriguez VIP Club tier, that we shout out at the end of every episode. There’s so many of you we shout out five of you in the end of every episode as our token of our appreciation. Those five members are Connor, Jacob, Becca, JT, and Kieran. Alex we still have plenty of merch available for people. You could argue an unlimited amount of merch is available for people over at our website, tippingpitches.myshopify.com. If you don’t want to type all of that stuff out, it’s just tiny.cc/nationalize. You were not with me at the New York Mets game yesterday, thankfully, for your own shattered–
ALEX: Wow, okay.
BOBBY: –for your own sake. Although we had great seats, it was a fun time to be at the ballpark. And until about the ninth inning. Well until about the fifth inning when Max Scherzer came out with [1:15:37]–
ALEX: Right, that was, that’s when the dark clouds gathered.
BOBBY: It’s not where, it’s not where you want to be at the game when you have no context for why the pitcher who always goes seven is out after 5 and 67 pitches.
ALEX: Yeah, his shortest start of the year.
BOBBY: Fingers crossed for Max’s left side fatique. But you’re not with me at–
ALEX: That the same, that so, so same.
BOBBY: I’m always saying this. Yeah, I’m always saying this.
ALEX: My left side, my right side, my top side.
BOBBY: You were not with me at this game when a gentleman was wearing a Unionize the Minors Mets colors on the Jumbotron, on the Jumbotron. A gigantic shout out to Wallflower Power on Twitter who responded and said glad y’all liked that. What a time to be alive. Being in a Mets game–
ALEX: What a time!
BOBBY: –seeing our shirt on the Jumbotron. A real silver lining moment there. You could be like that person if you go to our website and buy your own, buy your own Tipping Pitches merch. Everybody’s doing it. All the cool kids are doing it.
ALEX: We also have a Patreon. Some of you may be aware of this. But that’s a great way to get more, more content from us more occasionally, delinquent newsletters from us.
BOBBY: Yes, yes. So sorry. You know, we just missed, we just dropped the ball. We just missed the newsletter cycle and to make up for it. We’re sending two straight.
ALEX: Yeah, but we hope you guys have been enjoying the ones as of late. Again, you can get access to that at the, at the top tier, or Patreon or Alex Rodriguez tier, which comes along with Q&As, obviously access to the Slack, other fun opportunities. But there are three tiers for you, if, if you don’t want to sign up at that highest level. Go check it out, patreon.com/tippingpitches.
BOBBY: What do you think of the newsletter? Do you like my idea?
ALEX: I love that, I’ve never watched industry but I’m, yes, absolutely. I was thinking of the ways that, that we could get Aaron Sorkin signed on to do–
BOBBY: No, wait, hold on, slow down.
ALEX: Okay, Adam, Adam McKay?
BOBBY: That’s, that would be fun. I, I–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –could, I could stomach Adam McKay. Despite his annoying online tendencies. We can all just kind of ignore–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –that and allow him to EP. You know, Adam McKay did EP Succession as well, which I know is one of your favorite–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –shows. You know we we’ve never lived in the same city when Succession put a new season out. Have you thought about the possibility–
ALEX: Wow!
BOBBY: –of us watching Succession on Sunday nights together?
ALEX: A live watch? Oh my God.
BOBBY: A li- woah! A live watch?! Hold off, slow your roll. We haven’t added a fourth, the fourth tier of our Patreon.
ALEX: I meant, I meant live for you and I–
BOBBY: Live together?
ALEX: –but we could do a, we can do a [1:18:13]–
BOBBY: [1:18:13] Yeah, I that just occurred to me for the first time. But anyway, the people who don’t have the newsletter, don’t know what we’re talking about. And that’s why–
ALEX: But she could.
BOBBY: –they should sign up tippingpitches, that’s why they just sign up for patreon.com/tippingpitches. Thank you everybody for listening. And we’ll be back next week.
[1:18:34]
[Music]
[1:18:45]
[Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most, Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya!
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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