Bobby and Alex fantasize about players who they’d love to see juicing, then dive into the latest in MLB showing their behinds, including Rob Manfred’s apparent contempt for baseball fans and the league’s refusal to compensate minor leaguers for spring training. They round things out with listener voicemails about high socks and low socks, the conflicting labor interests of players owning teams, and the possibility of optimism.
Links:
MLB won’t pay minor leaguers for spring training
Songs featured in this episode:
Cyndi Lauper — “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun” • Radiohead — “Optimistic” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and and and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about. It’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
ALEX: Bobby, we’re back for another, another week’s roundup of Rob Manfred quotes that make absolutely no sense. You’re ready to do an hour on this?
BOBBY: Yeah, this is all I prepared for.
ALEX: There’s been plenty of of developments and and lack of developments in the CBA negotiations over the weekend. So we’re we’re definitely going to get to all of that. But before we do, I want to ask you something that has, that has nothing to do with CBA negotiations they stand. I guess they it tangentially does. So I I don’t know if you if you saw this, but for the first time in 20 years, there is no drug testing going on right now, right?
BOBBY: Oh yes, I I did see this.
ALEX: Because there is no CBA, right, of of which the the joint drug use prevention. Some combination of those words, anyway, they’re not testing for steroids.
BOBBY: Uh-huh.
ALEX: And so I’m curious, Bobby, if you had to pick a player to show up to spring training, just absolutely jacked. Taking advantage of of the the lack of testing. Obviously, we’re we’re talking hypotheticals here, because as soon as they come to an agreement, they’re just going to resume testing. So no player sees this as a as as having free rein, but–
BOBBY: Don’t get ahead of yourself. There might be some players, there’s this having free rein.
ALEX: But who do you want to to take that next–
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: –step?
BOBBY: Yeah. So it’s, who do I want? Not Who do I think might actually do this?
ALEX: Right. Yes. Who would be most enjoyable to see hooked up to have like 70 grade power all of a sudden? I don’t know where?
BOBBY: Interesting question because the way that you phrase that the end there, pulls it in a different direction than I was planning on going. I was going to double down on someone’s power. Like I–
ALEX: Mmm, okay.
BOBBY: –was gonna say, you know what? We could get you on assess, but it’s back in the league. Do some up.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: Do some up. Or similarly, Miguel Cabrera bring his power back.
ALEX: Oh, God, yeah.
BOBBY: You know, just give him one last great season, with it, with via HGH, he deserves that, you know. And they couldn’t even use that as an excuse to keep them out of the Hall of Fame. Because he did it when there was no rule.
ALEX: Right, exactly. Although, I guess–
BOBBY: Technically there was no rule when [2:52] Bonds and Rodriguez and all those guys that are being kept out of the Hall of Famer, accused.
ALEX: That certainly be great to Topaz Mickey’s resume, get them up to like 550 home runs. I mean, he’s already a shoo in for the the Hall of Fame. So he doesn’t really need it.
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: The direction that my head went in was like, who is, who is like one of the best contact hitters in the league right now, right?
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: Who maybe has a bit of power in the bat that is, that hasn’t been unlocked yet. But an extra 10-15 feet on there flyballs is gonna start, you know, really making them waves and move league right. So I thought of a guy like Michael Brantley, who has an incredible hit tool, and it’s just an incredible hitter all around. And if he starts to pop in, like 35 home runs [3:40]–
BOBBY: Yeah [3:40] MVP.
ALEX: Yeah, exactly. Or one Brandon Nimmo. Oh, who already, who already has the, the bonds walk rate. He’s already, he’s already getting on base.
BOBBY: Not quite, but yeah.
ALEX: Not quite. No one, no one can ever really.
BOBBY: See if you, if you juiced up Michael Brantley, he would just hit doubles to the gap harder. I don’t think he would hit home runs, I think a lot of flyball, you know. Nimmo is not a bad one.
ALEX: [4:04] swing adjustment.
BOBBY: Nimmo was not a bad one, because he gets a lot of flight balls.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: He doesn’t get any other kinds of hits. So that’s a good answer.
ALEX: I’m, I’m just trying to imagine like an absolutely beefed up like 250 pound Brandon Nimmo doing his sprint, sprint around the bases.
BOBBY: He’s been big already, he’s like–
ALEX: I know.
BOBBY: –underratedly large unreal.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: Why don’t, why are we even playing around? Let’s just give Shohei Ohtani and see what happens.
ALEX: Oh my God. Right.
BOBBY: Throwing 106 exit velocity 125
ALEX: Just absolutely pushing the limits of what is humanly possible.
BOBBY: How quickly it is, do these things go into effect, you know. Like, could someone get really jacked in the next 10 days?
ALEX: Right. Do you have to think like three months ahead?
BOBBY: I think you do. I think you do.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: Good question.
ALEX: Unfortunately, we don’t have much insight into the actual regimen. But that might need to be our next investigative piece is how do you properly do steroids?
BOBBY: All right, here’s, here’s the pitch, here’s the pitch.
ALEX: Okay.
BOBBY: I’m moving back to New York, in two weeks. We start doing HGH and lifting before every part and reporting back on what happens to us over the course of the 2022 baseball season.
ALEX: I’m with it.
BOBBY: Yeah?
ALEX: That is an incredible
BOBBY: 2022–
ALEX: –experiment.
BOBBY: –year of the bulk on Tipping Pitches.
ALEX: See, I was thinking of, maybe trying to greenies or something like that, you know. Like–
BOBBY: [5:38]
ALEX: –well like, you know, give you that [5:41]–
BOBBY: Like before the pot?
ALEX: Like before the pot. Can you imagine if we just went out it went in here like wired? I know you, you’re, you’re in the middle of drinking a coffee. That is four shots of espresso. So you’re not–
BOBBY: It’s not that out of the ordinary though. I did run around in the snow this morning. It’s snowing in Pennsylvania.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Yeah, here in New York as well.
BOBBY: To wake myself up.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. It’s that’s you and Stevie, your dog do the same thing.
BOBBY: You might hear my dog on this podcast because she’s not used to all the sounds in my parents home. So she barks more frequently, even then, our apartment in Los Angeles. Okay, so we’re juicing up half the best players in the league and half the semi-washed players in the league just to see what happens.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Well [6:23] can we get Nick Mattrick–Nick Madrigal some some HGH? [6:26]
ALEX: [6:26] he was on my list as well.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Luisa Rice like–
BOBBY: When you asked me that question. I was like, o-oh, brief panic, brief panic. Because I had to think of baseball player names.
ALEX: Uh-huh.
BOBBY: It’s not something I’ve had to do for the last three months.
ALEX: Right. I think that’s the first time we’ve mentioned some baseball names on this podcast.
BOBBY: We went on a Philadelphia podcast last week. And they were like, we want to talk about the Phillies and we want to talk about John Middleton. So I’m like as soon as the podcast is starting firing up the old Google–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –searching Phillies depth chart.
ALEX: Yep.
BOBBY: Just to make sure–
ALEX: Top release prospects.
BOBBY: Phillies depth chart. Phillies, the team that my team plays 19 times a year. Mike, can I, can I name more than, more than four players on the Phillies?
ALEX: You know, I think that–
BOBBY: Who was that guy who crushed the can, the energy drink can? When he was running in who was that guy?
ALEX: That’s right, JoJo Romero. You know, I–
BOBBY: [7:22]
ALEX: –think, I think that says more about the Phillies and and the state of their roster than it does about you as a baseball fan. I think–
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: –most, most fans are probably in the same boat.
BOBBY: Who just like a couple gimmies on there.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: When everybody else and like, man, Didi Gregorious is still on the Phillies?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: There’s a guy I used to think about way more.
ALEX: I know, right? Huh, love him. Although isn’t he, isn’t he like it, like anti-vaxxer. Didn’t he has some questionable COVID takes?
BOBBY: He–
ALEX: What baseball player hasn’t, I guess.
BOBBY: –claimed that the vaccine gave him some injury–
ALEX: Oh, right.
BOBBY: –[7:54]. But that’s, that’s neither here nor there. We’re now completely off the rails in the in the intro to the podcast.
ALEX: Hook up with Nicki Minaj, his cousin.
BOBBY: Nicki Minaj’s cousin if you’re listening, reach out to Didi. Uhm, all right, well, we do have some news on the CBA front, as you alluded to. The MLB put forth a 130 page, full CBA proposal to the Union yesterday, as we sit here and record this on Sunday. There was also some shenanigans about whether or not MLB should have to pay Minor League players for coming to spring training and working. They may have a couple listener questions to do at the end. But before we do all of that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[8:44]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: I think getting really into lifting and HGH would be a great bit, particularly for you.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Just out of nowhere to start, start going on forums, bodybuilder–
ALEX: You know–
BOBBY: –forums.
ALEX: –should I become like a like a fitness influencer?
BOBBY: I think you could. Here’s the thing about you.
ALEX: Yes. Tell me the thing about me.
BOBBY: There are many things about you, all of which are phenomenal. The thing about you is that you could be good at pretty much anything if you just put your mind to it, you know?
ALEX: Yeah, that’s the, yeah, the human condition.
BOBBY: I have, I have faith in you. I’ve seen you become good at things you had no idea how to do, like host a podcast.
ALEX: That’s true.
BOBBY: Or like make a website, code a website, you know. All this stuff, you just teach yourself.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: It’s not like you studied these things. So yeah, you could become a fitness influencer pretty easily. If you really committed to the bit I think two years or less. Because you could get some really good before and after pictures.
ALEX: Right. I was just about to say everyone loves the the like the showing of progress, you know. And boy do I have some, some progress that I should be making. People are gonna be like, wow, how, how’d you get that much out of that little?
BOBBY: We could spend quite the tail. You know, you hated how much you were just sitting stagnant–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –in the pandemic, doing jobs where you’re just not active. Hosting a podcast, sitting around talking. So you decided to take back the reins of your life. That’s what you decided to do.
ALEX: Yeah, you know, I mean, I, I I have this, this little podcast that I do, Tipping Pitches. And and as of, as of late, my, my girlfriend has started, started a food Instagram on my behalf of dishes that I’m making. So I’m really just–
BOBBY: Plug it.
ALEX: –like–
BOBBY: You got to plug that. [10:39]–
ALEX: I’m, I’m–you know, you know, you know, you know. Uhm, but I’m really just going all in on the, on the influencer route these days.
BOBBY: Those two things could really inform each other, you know. You have, you have the, the meals you make to talk about the bulk.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And then you have the workout routine. But the one missing piece, which will tie it all back to the intro of this podcast is where the fuck do you get HGH?
ALEX: I yeah.
BOBBY: I don’t know where. You got to know guy.
ALEX: I would, I think so, right? I mean, there are certain types of I think, over the counter drugs that like do have, you know, marginally the same effects. But obviously not nearly to the magnitude that just injecting that shit straight into your veins would do.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.
ALEX: I don’t know. I wonder if I could ask my doctor out of curiosity.
BOBBY: Well, we know Alex Rodriguez is listening.
ALEX: That’s true. Uh-hmm. Although I’m sure he’s disavowed any, any any links to steroids as of late.
BOBBY: Okay, your burgeoning influencer career side, Alex. We did have some other news from this past week that is slightly more relevant to Tipping Pitches interest. MLB passed back a full CBA proposal to the Union, 130 pages. But before we start breaking down the details of that proposal, as relevant or irrelevant, as they are as Groundhog Day, as they’re making us feel. I wanted to talk to you about one Robert D. Manfred, Commissioner of Major League Baseball. Who I will say, how do I put it politely on a podcast and flamed the larger baseball public this past week. When he decided to give a press conference from the Major League Baseball owners meeting, which is currently happening in in Disney World. Since, why is it happening at Disney World? I never really understood that. I think it’s just happening–
ALEX: Wow, wow. You don’t think that owners deserve to have a little bit of fun too?
BOBBY: But that’s the thing. If owners want to have fun, why are they choosing Disney World? Like what fun is there for owners? Is it because that’s, that’s the only class of people that can actually afford to go have fun Disney World? Disneyworld is actually not designed for children, it was designed for 60 year old billionaires.
ALEX: Yes, exactly. Billionaires do just want to have fun. It’s true.
BOBBY: How would you describe Bob’s press conference? Because I’m I’m I’m struggling for a way to describe it to listeners who didn’t follow us on Twitter, or see the quotes as they were coming out in real time. And everybody was really getting mad zero to 100 very quickly. He he kind of just spoke to the media to to lie for 30 minutes about the state of baseball ownership and the state of financial interests in the game. So that he could try to bend public will towards the owners amidst this lockout. I don’t know if there’s any other way to categorize what he did last week.
ALEX: Yeah, it was a real banner week for quotes coming out of MLB camp. I mean, you can have your pick of the lot and I’m sure we’ll we’ll dive into and pick apart some of the more choice quotes. But it really, it harkens back to a time when, when we had a president not too long ago. Who was, who was known for very obviously getting up on stage and lying in the media. Would struggle to really define what it is he was actually saying. Trying to maintain a a veneer of objectivity and you know if he’s going up there and and speaking falsehoods about the state of the game, you know. I he is delivering alternative facts–
BOBBY: [14:34]
ALEX: –from from, yeah exactly. But that’s really like what it reminded me of is a guy who’s going up there and lying and kind of knowing that he is lying, but understanding that it suits the narrative that he’s trying to push.
BOBBY: It’s particularly frustrating to us because we spend so much time on this show trying to like parse these words, parse these concepts, parse media’s reaction to them. Is that there probably is, like the smallest kernel of truth–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –in what Rob was saying. And I guess we should provide a little bit of context for the people who didn’t see his press conference, see the quotes getting streamed out. The one that really, I think kicked it all off was when Rob said that quote, historically, the return is, the return for owning a baseball team is below what you’d expect to get in the stock market. And I think that this set people off for a lot of reasons, but before I break them down. It’s frustrating to people who pay attention, because it’s so obvious that he’s lying. But it’s even more nefarious when you dig more into it. Because I think that there is a whole subset of people who see that quote, and they’ll be like, that’s probably true, and never think again about it. And so he knows that it’s worth pissing off the people who know that it’s false. Because that is such, such a small subset of baseball fans, that the lie is then worth it. Which is why he keeps going up there and telling lies like this. And when he was pressed about the facts behind that statement, the facts that could make that statement possibly true enough for the Commissioner of baseball, to go up there and tell it to the media, amidst an owner’s lockout. He said, they conducted an internal study with an investment banker, who he wouldn’t name. Like the lack of accountability, the lack of transparency, it it makes those phrases look irre–like it makes those phrases look, not even worth speaking out loud on a podcast. Like that is so such a slap in the face. We conducted a study with our own hired investment banker, and he said, actually, it’s really really convenient the results we found guys. It’s actually way worse to own a baseball team than to invest in the stock market. And then Rob was like, it’s a good idea to go say this out loud.
ALEX: It just displays such contempt for the fans of the game. And frankly, the the media who is covering the game, that he would have the confidence to go out there and say this sort of thing. And, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, The Athletic published a, a story that actually investigated this very point. That showed that like over the last couple of decades or whatever the the, you know. Own ML–investments in MLB teams have far outpaced the S&P 500, right?
BOBBY: Right.
ALEX: And so it’s it’s you know, it’s remarkable that key, because I’m sure that he has minion to keep tabs on everything that’s being talked about in the media and and why he would see this [17:47]–
BOBBY: You don’t think it was him listening to MLB Network when he decided to kick Ro–Ken Rosenthal out? You think that he had some minions that really maybe forwarded that one to him on email?
ALEX: A part of me thinks that maybe he is a bit masochistic and and just enjoys reading the The Athletic articles that point out his obvious lies.
BOBBY: Yeah. Oh, right. Because Rosenthal wrote his his criticism and [18:11]. Not not on MLB Network. So does that mean there’s a there’s a small chance, small sliver of a chance he’s listen to this podcast right now?
ALEX: You know, I I don’t know if he’s listened to it, he might be aware of it.
BOBBY: All right, let’s not toot our own horn too much. I don’t think he’s aware of it. Anyway–
ALEX: [18:28]
BOBBY: –get back to your point, back to your point.
ALEX: But, you don’t even need a study like that, to prove that that this is false, right? Yo,u we instinctively know that owning MLB team is a good investment. You can just look at the increase in franchise valuation over the the period of time in which you own a team. You can just look at the number of billionaires who line up to purchase an MLB team when one goes up for sale. Even the the Wilpons, for example–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –who notoriously screwed over the the franch–the Mets franchise, due to how I say this politely, getting swindled with outside investments.
BOBBY: You know I was reading, I was reading the Wikipedia page for Bernie Madoff not that long ago, just in my free time.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: And there are some people who speculate that the Wilpons didn’t actually even lose any money. They just use the idea that they lost money to be cheaper with the Mets and make even more money. Some–
ALEX: I love that–
BOBBY: people think that–
ALEX: –conspiracy theory.
BOBBY: –Fred Wilpon made money on the Bernie Madoff thing. Which, like my whole world was flipped on its head when I read that.
ALEX: I know. I mean, the thing about that is it it requires giving them a lot of credit for being financial masterminds. Which I don’t know that I’m willing, I’m willing to do given just the the fail son legacy over there.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: But it also, like billionaires have done weirder things, you know?
BOBBY: Yeah, I mean, I could see them letting that persona fester and then they’re just doubling up their money behind the curtains..
ALEX: Right. At a certain point, once you put the narrative out there, it takes on a life of its own. You don’t even need–
BOBBY: It’s like [20:14]
ALEX: –to keep perpetuating it.
BOBBY: Yeah, exactly. Uhm, I’ll just follow up, Travis Sawchik is the one who tweeted this quote from Rob Manfred when I saw it first. And Travis followed up to that tweet and said, “Since 2002, S&P 500 return: +308%. And MLB team values: are +564%. Now Rob went on to clarify that their internal assessment includes money put into clubs by owners. Which we don’t have access to that information. I struggled to imagine why they wouldn’t make that information public unless that information led to us seeing how much money they’re actually pocketing.
ALEX: And unless it contradicts the statements that are being given.
BOBBY: Yes, exactly. I seriously doubt that they used public funds toward stadiums to increase their return on investment, you know what I mean? Like in their calculation, I seriously doubt that taxpayer money was counted as money for owner X. Even though it is a subsidy to their investment. And the part that’s so frustrating, I thought that Jake and Jordan at Céspedes BBQ had a really smart, immediate response. Which was that, aside from the fact that this is untrue, it’s also not what we’re talking about here. These are already the guys who own baseball teams. They already chose to own baseball teams, you’re the Commissioner of Baseball, if you want to make more money in the stock market, go do it. Go do it. Nobody–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –is stopping you. Literally no fan would stop their team owner from selling the team.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Like what fan would be like? No, we’ve loved your ownership rain so much. If you sell the team, everything is ruined. No fan would do that. So what did, I just don’t, I [22:01]–
ALEX: John John Fisher’s grown on me.
BOBBY: I struggled to understand well, maybe Mets fans would try to stop Steve Cohen [22:09]–
ALEX: Honestly, yeah.
BOBBY: –but we’ve talked about their sicko shit. But I struggled to understand what Rob Manfred thought he was accomplishing with this. And how he didn’t foresee this immediately blowing up and starting a new cycle. But maybe, I mean, maybe he’s playing the three dimensional chess. If the new cycle is about me, it’s not about our shity proposal that we’re about to give in 48 hours.
ALEX: Yeah, there’s, there’s certainly no baseball fan that’s like, I really wish our owner was getting a better ROI, on this baseball team, you know. We haven’t been very good but I’m wondering what this does to my owners overall bottom line? No fan is like, I wish owners treated my baseball team more like a stock. More like an asset purely tied to its dollar value.
BOBBY: I know.
ALEX: Regardless of how the product itself is actually doing.
BOBBY: The fact that he’s even drawing this comparison is like, where are we? And what are we doing? And what dimension have we slipped into? It shouldn’t be the same, but it is. And you’re admitting it by saying these are the things that owners are weighing in their decisions.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: The last thing I’ll say on the stock market comment and then I know you have a couple other comments, a couple other quotes that you’d like to read from Rob and Major League Baseball. But the last thing that I’ll say is, and I, and I tweeted a thread about this, as I’m want to do to organize my thoughts before we record this podcast. It’s just a, it’s an extraneous hypothetical, just start talking about the stock market. Because in the stock market, you actually have to have the money to buy the stocks. Like you actually have to buy the stocks to make the money. Whereas in Baseball, you can take out a loan, like try taking out a billion dollar loan and being like, I’m just gonna put it into the stock market, see what the bank says to you then. But if you say I’m gonna take out a billion dollar loan, and buy a baseball team, oh, look, you have a baseball team. Because the bank knows that Baseball is a guaranteed moneymaker.
ALEX: It’s it’s too big to fail.
BOBBY: It’s an anti trust exempt 30 business collusion racket, that is America’s pastime, that fans keep coming back to no matter what. That local cable will fork over $100 million a year to fill their airtime. Thanks in all that stuff. And that’s why, and so two billionaires, sort of the billionaires that by the team. And so does Rob is the most frustrating part. And he knows all that stuff. And then he goes up there and gets press conferences like this, because he thinks that fans are too stupid to realize it.
ALEX: I just love the notion that Rob Manfred, the man in charge of baseball, is getting up there and saying, yes, this product that I am in charge of is a bad investment. You should not be investing in the sport that I run. Oh, okay. So you’re bad at your job job. Like if, if you’re, if your job is to look out for the best interests of the owners, and you are saying that baseball is an incredibly risky, volatile, pour investment. What does that, what does that say about you and your job? If it is true,
BOBBY: Yeah. But this is the kind of mental gymnastics that you have to do to try to make it seem like you have any ground to be standing on when you’re fighting over money in a labor negotiation, right? When you’re the owner side, and there are 30 of you, and you’re splitting half of the $15 billion dollars that MLB makes per year or more than half. And you’re bullying local governments into giving you sweetheart deals for stadiums, and your antitrust exemption. And you refuse to pay minor leaguers. And you make billions of dollars in other industries, in a lot of cases. This is the kind of mental gymnastics that you have to do to even slightly skew the playing field in the public to be able to act like you should be arguing for more money in a CBA negotiation. Because it’s ludicrous, man, it’s ludicrous. If Rob came out and actually said the truth of what’s going on. They’d get steamrolled by the public, which is why they won’t ever actually release any of that financial information.
ALEX: It’s pretty remarkable, how much time we can get out of, out of like a 20-word quote from Rob Manfred, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Does he realized his quotes are just fodder for an entire segments on our podcast?
BOBBY: He’s the never ending fountain of Tipping Pitches content. Were there other quotes that you wanted to read from Rob, from Major League Baseball?
ALEX: Well, there was another flat out lie that he said that, you know, may offer us an opportunity to kind of discuss what was in the actual proposals. Which I think you have the details for, and we can go into real quick. But he–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –but he said, tax rates are the status quo, he’s referring to the most recent proposal, tax rates are the status quo. They’re the same rates that are in the expired agreement. That’s a, that’s, that’s not, that’s not true. Not, not close to true. If you’ve actually been reading the reports that have come out. Again, I’ll let you do the dirty work of revealing the details. But MLB would like to double the penalties for going over to the competitive balance tax threshold. That just doesn’t read to me as being, quote, the status quo. If you present something that is different from the thing that existed prior to right now, that feels like a new proposal.
BOBBY: Maybe, maybe he mixed up what he was actually talking about, Alex. Maybe the status quo he was referring to was the actual competitive bounce tax number. He’d like to keep the status quo there. Because MLB’s response on the competitive balance tax threshold, was, instead of the $214 million threshold for the first three years, and then 216 million and 220 million that they had proposed previously. They decided to give the generous 214 million for the first two years, then 216, then 218 than 222. They went up $2 million, they went, they went up 2 million. Let me just say that one more time, $2 million, which wouldn’t even come close to covering inflation? Like when we’re talking about sums of money this high, like $2 million over the lifespan of a CBA. It’s laughable, like the teams, the big money teams that this is supposed to be affecting, like the Dodgers and Mets. The Yankees are a different story. But like the Dodgers and Mets and the Red Sox, they frequently when they do choose to go over it and stop treating it like a salary cap, which it’s not designed to be. They blow well past it, as has been much documented. Like they use that argument out of the other side of their mouth. They’re like, well, teams are spending way over it just goes to show that the threshold should be higher, right? But then they propose something because they want to keep treating it like a de facto salary cap. They propose something that is not different at all, really. And then yes, like you said, the penalty for going over it. They’ve decided to eliminate draft pick penalties for going over. Instead, they’ve opted to propose something that would be a stiffer financial penalty for going over the competitive balance tax which you would pay a 50% penalty for how far you go over and then a 75% penalty in the in the repeating year. And then a 100% penalty for how far you go over. So if you go $10 million over in the third year, you pay a $10 million fine, essentially. In addition to $10 million, that you’re already paying over the tax, you know. So that is, as you laid out very different from the status quo, and they want to, they want to keep the status quo and revenue sharing is what they’re saying to. So they don’t want to change the amount of revenue sharing that goes to smaller clubs, which the Union, as we’ve discussed, does want to change. Because they want to disincentivize profitable losing. So I don’t know, there there are other elements of this CBA proposal that are, I guess, slightly interesting. They’re only each side is only moving $5 million on the pre arbitration bonus pool, which means we’re going to be here until July. Before they actually get to a number that they can agree on at this rate. MLB hilariously continues to say, we’ll reward ourselves if we don’t manipulate service time through their proposals by putting something in the CBA proposal that says they’ll get to draft picks within the players first three years, if he finishes in the top three, three in Cy Young, Rookie of the Year, or MVP voting. So they’re giving themselves an extra draft picks for not manipulating service time.
ALEX: So funny.
BOBBY: Yeah. But again, I I find it not as useful to discuss every single detail of the CBA. Because we don’t know the details with which they’re being proposed, until we actually get one. From a more general sense, Alex, was there anything coming out of this weekend that makes you feel any different about where we are in terms of the baseball calendar?
ALEX: Not really, I I mean, I think that, I think people were obviously hoping that coming out of Saturday, there would be significant progress or that they’d be much closer to a deal. I don’t think that they were ever actually going to agree on something on Saturday. They were never going to actually come to a deal that they both agree on this. The the realistic expectation is that maybe they would make progress, or the league would make concessions, or they would start to find more middle ground. Which that didn’t even really happen. As we saw the union was quote, very underwhelmed.
BOBBY: Although Rob made sure to remind people smugly that they’re one big breakthrough away from a deal. Were always one big breakthrough away from the deal.
ALEX: Yeah. [32:38]–
BOBBY: I wonder, I wonder who has the ability to kind of burst through to break through as he’s describing which side has the chance there?
ALEX: Yeah, what would that, what would that mean? What would that break through look like?
BOBBY: Right. Yeah. I don’t know. Oh, well.
ALEX: The the lock, the lockout can end at any time, just your your weekly reminder. There’s one, there’s one side who’s keeping a lockout in place. As far as the timeline that we’re on, again, I don’t think like things have changed from where they were last week or two weeks ago, the league still probably has about two weeks or so, right? Spring training starts at the beginning of March, we’re at the midpoint of February are close to it. If if you know, if we don’t have a deal by March 1st, that’s the point at which I think you were past the threshold of having a full season, right.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: At this point, it already seems you know, quote, unquote, “in jeopardy”. But it’s so hard to kind of prognosticate and read tea leaves when we really don’t actually know what’s going on behind closed doors. So it’s, it’s a fool’s errand to try and make predictions about it. But I you know, as a fan, I think you kind of just have to be in a holding pattern right now. And just keep your fingers crossed. And and not just because I’m supposed to go to a bachelor party in spring training. So that would just you know, crossing my fingers there for multiple reasons.
BOBBY: Wow, really making the macro micro for yourself there.
ALEX: I love that.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: You know what? I am, I’m a single issue voter.
BOBBY: I don’t where it hurts the bachelor parties being hosted at spring training. Rob, won’t Rob think of the bachelor parties. Uhm, Manfred keeps repeatedly saying, it would be disastrous for them to lose games. And I’m like how disastrous we talking?
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Put, put some context behind that. Rob. How disastrous would it be for owners because we know how to, quote unquote, “disastrous” it would be for players. We know how much players make, we know how much they would lose. We know how much they’re giving up by wanting to get a CBA. How much are you guys willing to give up? And also, there’s something so sleazy about the way that he keeps saying it would be disastrous for us to lose games. Knowing that that is like the go to line for fans and for media who don’t want to have to think too critically about this. Who are like, oh, just be so bad for the game. Be so so bad for the game to lose games, Alex, millionaires and billionaires just can’t they can’t figure it out. And you know who gets hurt? It’s the little guy.
ALEX: Little guy.
BOBBY: The little guy, the one who wants to host his bachelor party at spring training. That guy’s not getting his deposit back. Uhm, speaking of spring training, I’m glad you brought that up unless there is anything else that you want to talk about from the CBA?
ALEX: No, I don’t think so. The the the the final quote, I think is the, is the one that speaks to this, this topic that we are about to discuss. So I’ll let you, I let you take it away.
BOBBY: Spring trainings coming up, beginning of March. Currently, the Major League players, I’m not sure if you’ve heard they’re locked out, from that spring training, they’re not allowed to attend legally. Because the owners have orchestrated a lockout, defend defensive lockout against those players. Stay away, we’re playing defense from you guys. You guys are just gonna come in. Players who are not locked out of spring training Alex, the only labor pool who is not locked out of spring training, who actually plays baseball games in spring training, that’s minor leaguers. So it would seem to me that their value is higher than ever, as it relates to spring training. That is just a theory that I would posit towards you, my friend, Alex, and the listeners of the Tipping pitches Podcast. That theory is not shared by Rob Manfred, and Major League Baseball, as according to an Evan Drellich tweet and article, Major League Baseball is arguing, quote, “It is the players that obtain the greater benefit from the training opportunities that they are afforded than the clubs, who actually just incur the cost of having to provide that training.” Therefore, minor leaguers will not be paid or should not be paid for attending spring training, and doing their job of baseball at spring training. Alex, does that, does that argument hold up for you?
ALEX: There is nothing that people who own an MLB team love more than complaining about all the tasks that it takes to own a baseball team. Like paying your employees, training your input. Like what is the [37:51]–
BOBBY: Building stadiums.
ALEX: –that they not that you thought you were getting into?
BOBBY: Oh, my God, I know.
ALEX: They are incurring the cost of having to provide that training. Yes, yep. That’s kind of that’s kind of the deal here.
BOBBY: Been this way since Branch Rickey, been this way for a long time. You incur the cost of training baseball players so that they can get really good at baseball. And then you can get your return on investment. Once they’re really good. And a bunch of people want to buy their jerseys and watch them play baseball. That’s the business right there. For anybody listening who wants to own a baseball team, that’s it, that’s the business model. Should we also just never pay them then? Because it costs money to hold games. Should, they just shouldn’t get paid at all then.
ALEX: Well, I mean, they’re getting paid an experience.
BOBBY: Actually, now the more that I think about it, I I do think playing baseball should be an unpaid internship. Because if you get really good at baseball, then you can just like become a motivational speaker.
ALEX: Why make any money doing anything because you are gaining the currency of knowledge in in your field. And that my friend, you cannot put $1 [38:56]
BOBBY: Right. And if you invest that knowledge back into yourself, that’s a foolproof and bet, that’s the stock that always goes up.
ALEX: So true. I’m waiting. I’m waiting for A. Rod’s vlog about this.
BOBBY: Okay, but seriously, though, how you can possibly try to not pay minor leaguers for being the only ones who are going to show up to spring training? Because you locked out the major leaguers. That is truly mind blowing to me. It’s beyond comprehension. It’s it’s completely beyond comprehension. And just goes to show that these people have genuinely not one ounce of shame in their bodies.
ALEX: You know, who makes money off of spring training games is team owners. That’s when they start losing paychecks. So the idea that they are quote, in incurring the costs of training without, you know, neglecting to mention that they are also receiving the profits that said players, said interns are are making for them, is it’s a joke.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: It’s a joke.
BOBBY: Sorry. As long as we’re saying stuff I’m incurring the cost of working.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: So pay me, like, what what are you talking about? We could just say anything then. I’m incurring the cost of losing, sometimes half my day to doing a job. I’m incurring the cost of being in a different city away from my family, and children. I’m I’m incurring the cost of not having another job that actually pays me a living wage. I’m incurring the physical cost that it takes to my body to play baseball. Should we keep going like everybody is incurring costs here? Some people are compensated for those costs.
ALEX: Yeah. I have, I have no other rational thought to add to this. It’s just one more, one more thing to throw in the pile of bullshit that MLB has been toting around–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –this week.
BOBBY: I don’t even feel like I’m doing good job making podcasts. I’m just kind of yelling. Like I’m not, this feels like a very reactionary episode. And I’m I’m sure the listeners can tell that it feels very reactionary. But I don’t know how else to feel at this point. As we sit here on February 13, and owners are not putting forth serious proposals. Every player on the union is mad. Every player on the Union Committee is mad. And at the same time, they’re like, by the way, hey, not gonna pay minor leaguers for spring training. It’s like anything else? Anything else? Why don’t you just get it all out now, guys? Because the season has to start at some point. So why don’t you just say everything that you want? All at once?
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Stop trying to [41:31]–
ALEX: [41:31] using child labor. Okay, cool.
BOBBY: Cool, all right.
ALEX: And that was coming.
BOBBY: Do you want to expand your human trafficking racket to a different hemisphere of the globe? Anything else? No.
ALEX: Get it off your chest, Rob.
BOBBY: Are you gonna kidnap any politicians to give you local tax breaks? Like what, what else?
ALEX: Yeah, Libby Libby Schaff, mayor of Oakland has been conspicuously quiet in this [41:56]–
BOBBY: Maybe this is finally when they’re going to institute are playing baseball, playing spring training in international waters so that they don’t have to pace minor leaguer at all.
ALEX: There you go.
BOBBY: That’s a deep cut for the old Tipping Pitches listeners right there.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Should we take a break and come back and do listener questions?
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: Should we keep theorizing about what baseball owners should do? What crimes baseball owners should commit?
ALEX: You know, when we look back on this like a year from now, one of these things will have come true. So–
BOBBY: Ohh.
ALEX: –I think it’s a good, I think it’s a good exercise.
BOBBY: I think the opener is like two and a half for which of those things–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –to come true. Okay, we’ll take a quick break and come back a couple of listeners questions.
[42:36]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: Okay, Alex, we have two voicemails to play, one DM. We’ll start with a voicemail.
VOICEMAIL 1: Hi, guys, it’s Becca. Okay, three things I want to get to. So I’m going to try to do it. In the limited time we have to leave voicemails. First of all, I think it’s really funny that even though it’s just a voicemail, we still have to sit through all the rings before we get sent to the voicemail box. No one’s gonna pick up, but we still stay here like someone actually is. Okay, second of all non-baseball related question. Bobby, what are you most and least forward, mostly looking forward to about living in New York again? And then I the baseball related question. Do you guys have any strong opinions on high socks versus low sock? I feel like I don’t have a strong opinion about the look of it. But I think that it’s positional. Like if the catcher came out onto the field with high socks that would be really thrown off or like I think high socks are very much like a reliever look. Not to say that they can’t wear low socks, but I just kind of associate it with that. Okay, looking forward to the next episode. Talk to you guys later.
BOBBY: Okay, a three parter, Alex, three parter. Part number one, I think technically, we could answer the call. If we had the Google voicemail browser or Google Voice whatever it’s called browser up on our computer at the moment that you called. Seems very unlikely but that’s why it ranks because you could use it as a phone. Uhm, part number two, I got to think about this for a second. While Alex Bazeley answers part number three, high socks and low socks. What are your thoughts? What are your thoughts?
ALEX: I’ve always been a high socks guy.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I just, I just think they they look so slick. I love the the burst of color that they bring. I love the the fashion statement that they can give. You’ve seen some players rollout in socks with designs on them. The Dodgers notably have have had some some like palm trees on their, on their socks. There’s a burgeoning industry–
BOBBY: Because of Los Angeles, you know?
ALEX: Right. I think, I think that’s the [45:02]
BOBBY: Yeah. SoCa,l Southern California.
ALEX: And you know they’re even a different, different degrees of high sock where, right? Are you the Hunter Pence high sock over the knees?
BOBBY: He’s [45:15]–
ALEX: [45:15]. Yes, super gnarly.
BOBBY: Yeah. Are you a ball punter?
ALEX: I respect it. You’re never gonna forget how he looks. Yeah, I mean, I played, I played second base growing up. And that always felt like, I felt like a perfect high sock position. I get the positional difference. But I also think it’s, there’s something about the kind of corny look, that is really just like visually appealing. And this doesn’t even get into the the argument of like high socks versus stirrups. Which like if you’re going to do high socks, if you’re going to do high socks, go all the way, right?
BOBBY: I agree.
ALEX: I mean, stir–stirrups are just cream of the crop.
BOBBY: Here’s my thought. You already look so ridiculous while dressed up in a baseball uniform. But that doesn’t look like anything, normal. So why not just go as far as possible? Why not just, if your amp is at 8, why not just turn it up to 11.
ALEX: Exactly.
BOBBY: And so if you have the option in your bag, go syrups like I think stirrups looks really cool, especially for like a starting pitcher, you know. It’s very old–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –it’s very old timey. A starting pitcher or a reliever or whatever. And it is visually appealing on the mound. It’s just something about the way that it accentuates the way their windup works, you know. With your feet moving the footwork and everything and I don’t know. I I wore my socks, I I did not wear stirrups because I was like 13, you know. Like I was, I didn’t have the, the equipment budget that Major League Baseball players have. I was just rocking with the same, like semi-ripped old high socks, but that’s okay, that’s okay.
ALEX: I I kind of think that wearing high socks gives you a more slender look. Which is why I think that maybe like a like a first baseman wearing high socks. Feels a little weirder than like maybe a shortstop wearing high socks. But like then again–
BOBBY: [47:16] Joey Votto weird.
ALEX: I–
BOBBY: That’s beyond the pale. We could never insinuate–
ALEX: [47:01]
BOBBY: –that Joey Votto is weird.
ALEX: Miguel Cabrera has, has rocked the high sock,s he’s known for rockin high socks. So like honestly, I, I mean, if you’re Miguel Cabrera you could wear no socks and people probably be like, yep, [47:34]–
BOBBY: Think about how big his calves are going to look after he gets a couple of cycles of HGH going–
ALEX: So right.
BOBBY: –for that season.
ALEX: Anyway, that’s where, that’s where I stand high socks for life. Stirrups for life.
BOBBY: Yup.
ALEX: It’s like my one crotchety old traditionalist baseball fan take.
BOBBY: All that being said, there definitely are some guys who I think would look silly with high socks.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: And–
ALEX: Name, name names.
BOBBY: Joey Gallo?
ALEX: Okay. Is there, is there a rationale or is it just kind of like, you–
BOBBY: He’s too big.
ALEX: –know, when you see it.
BOBBY: Yeah, you know, when you see it.
ALEX: Well, that’s kind of what I was saying about like, like the first base there [48:12]–
BOBBY: But Aaron Judge wear high socks. How do you think those look? I think they look a little weird. I gotta admit it. But he’s welcome to wear his socks as high as he wants. Once he’s on the New York Mets.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Bring, bring–
ALEX: I mean, look–
BOBBY: –him. Bring him aboard. Yankees don’t sign him? Bring him aboard.
ALEX: Crosstown.
BOBBY: You don’t even have to move Aaron.
ALEX: Yeah. One, one shortstop for the New York Mets is, is on board with the high socks.
BOBBY: Who’s that? Who’s that guy? Oh, right, Francisco lindor, he’s on the Mets for the–
ALEX: Mmm.
BOBBY: –next 10 years.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: That’s cool.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s great.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Speaking of Francisco Lindor being on the Mets for the next 10 years, the third part of Becca’s question, which was actually the second part, part which we skipped over. What am I most and least looking forward to about moving back to New York? One of the things that I’m most looking forward to is going to watch Francisco Lindor play baseball in person all the time with my friend Alex, who’s on this Zoom screen with me right now. But I don’t, I don’t know that, if that’s the thing I’m most looking forward to. Probably just being in–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –more generally speaking, I prefer New York. I feel at home there. I’m closer to family and close friends. As as cheesy and obvious as that sounds. That is the thing that I’m looking forward to most about moving back to New York and also Alex getting to dogs it for my dog.
ALEX: That’s right.
BOBBY: I’m looking forward to that for him. What am I least looking forward to? Hmm. Being under the tutelage of Eric Adams? I don’t know.
ALEX: Are you kidding? So it’s such an entertaining Mayor already, we’re already getting our money [49:43]–
BOBBY: I know, if they’re not gonna do anything for us. It might as well be funny.
ALEX: You see, he’s he’s doing like a like a press conference or like a meet and greet with drill rappers to address like gun violence–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –hip–hop. Just fucking sure–
BOBBY: His video when he was running for City Council or whatever he was running for where he’s Like walking around, finding like crack cocaine underneath phases in his kid’s room.
ALEX: Right, showing parents like where to search for the crack that their kids are doing.
BOBBY: Yeah. Pulls a crack five out of the zipper like the pencil zipper compartment of his 8 year olds backpack. It’s actually way funnier than anything SNL has done since the turn of the millennium.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s not really what I’m least looking forward to. Honestly, what I’m least looking forward to is like two days after it snows and every puddle, every corner is just a six-foot wide puddle. That doesn’t happen in Los Angeles, let me tell you that. That does not happen there.
ALEX: But that’s probably it. That’s pretty good.
BOBBY: Really windy days when it just breaks your umbrella in half and you just have to throw it straight in the trash like it’s trash cans or just umbrella warzones.
ALEX: Yes. Snowy–
BOBBY: [50:50]
ALEX: –snowy, windy days. Not, not, not the vibe.
BOBBY: On the contrary–
ALEX: [50:55] other other weather pattern–
BOBBY: On the flip side of the Francisco Lindor thing, I’m I’m not looking forward to going to a Mets game when it’s cold. And they blow it in the ninth inning. Like I’m not looking forward to, I haven’t, I’m not looking forward to Edwin Diaz blowing a game while I’m at the game. I haven’t seen that in my life. But it definitely is gonna happen. That’s definitely gonna happen. Probably the first time we go to a game together.
ALEX: It’s a little surprising, it hasn’t happened already.
BOBBY: I’m really looking forward to going to Minor League games with you.
ALEX: Yeah, I guess we still got the Cyclones out here.
BOBBY: Yeah. All right, Pizza, the Staten Island Yankees, although based Staten Island Yankees taking down the MLB is anti trust exemption
ALEX: That’s rain.
BOBBY: That’s right, bro. But yeah, we can, we can go to Cyclones games and see my beloved Francisco Alvarez. Although he might just start a Triple-A this year, I don’t know. He’s amazing.
ALEX: It’s really good.
BOBBY: All right. Are you ready for the next question?
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: Okay, this next question came in a DM from a listener who asked us not to name him. Do we think that athletes in pro sports unions think about the labor management dynamic when they take a stake in pro teams? So for example, LeBron James, heard of him, has a stake in Fenway Sports Group, Patrick Mahomes, owns a piece of the Royals. Giannis owns a piece of the Brewers. But more generally, for other athletes who have even smaller, less high profile stakes in team ownership in other sports than their own. Do they think about what that means for the relative solidarity between players unions in other sports? Alex, do you want to take a stab at this one?
ALEX: Frankly, no.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: I don’t, I don’t think that they really consider that. Because if you’re, if you’re buying into a baseball team, especially given that players, you know, are usually not the primary money man. They’re usually minority owners, right? Come in as as part of an ownership group or something like that. You are, are likely viewing this more as an investment tool, then you are an opportunity to enact change. Or or bridge the gap between players and owners, right? Especially knowing that the players who are able to buy into ownership groups are likely ones who are making hundreds of millions of dollars.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And maybe have more in common with an owner than they do with, you know, a rookie player. Is it possible that in backroom discussions, you know, internally like among an ownership group that a player is able to provide some perspective? Sure, maybe? Do I think that, do I think that the other members of the ownership group would take kindly to someone on their team advocating for or at least pointing out the position of the other side? No, not, not really. I think if I think if you’re gonna buy into a sports team, the people you’re doing it with probably trust that you have some level of solidarity with them and not with the people across the table.
BOBBY: Yeah, or they wouldn’t sell you the steak.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: Not, not to be like, everybody who’s bought a stake in an ownership group of a sports team, who is a retired athlete is a scab. But what are we talking about here? Like the the dynamic is owners versus players. The dynamic is management versus labor. That’s, that’s capitalism. And I think that, when a player buys ownership stake in a team, and has like good intentions of it, it just strikes me at this very neoliberal worldview that you can, like, enact change from the capital side. Which I don’t think is true, you know, I I don’t really buy into that. But there is a group of people who do. And I think that, to be honest, like, I think a lot of athletes share that worldview. And so I don’t think that like, I very much doubt that like, players on the Brewers think it’s bad, that Giannis owns part of the Brewers. I think it’s like the lesser of two evils, you know. You’d rather have Giannis Antetokounmpo on the other side, than like faceless Wall Street Executive acts, who doesn’t care and understand what it takes to be an athlete. But at the same time, it’s the larger structure that presents problems for you as a union. And so, I don’t think that Giannis or Pat Mahomes, or LeBron should be like, excommunicated from their players union. But I do think that there should be a reason–reasonable amount of pressure levied against them if they are part of even tacitly part of actions that are making it hard for other sports unions. Like what, what do we have here besides that? Like what do we have other than sports unions standing up for sports unions? What do I have other than media unions, my sister shops standing up for me when I’m trying to get something in me doing that for them. And so if, during one of those fights, players find themselves on the ownership side, I think that’s a massive conflict of interest, to be honest.
ALEX: Yeah. Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: And I don’t think that those people should be making decisions for the NBA Players Association, frankly. If they, I I think that they should have a say, but I don’t think that they should be able to like, like, I would not vote for those people as president of NBA, the NBA Players Association. Because all of these things are interconnected, like the CBA of one sports league, does set somewhat of a precedent for the CBA of another sports league. Or it like, sets the template that owners are all often trying to get. And I think, I think particularly in the NBA, there seems to be more of an investment opportunity to to get back involved in ownership groups, in other sports, just because of the extremely influential nature of being an NBA star, and the extremely public facing nature of that. So the NBA probably is the League that has the most former players involved in ownership groups. And I think that that is like a step towards something slightly better in sports ownership than what we have now, which is just like the, the capitalists sitting at the top of it, profiting off of it while having basically nothing to do with the exhibition of the sport. But I still think that it’s like, a small step, not not as large of a step as those kind of neoliberal pro-capitalism acolytes would have you believe that it is.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s telling that those current players who do have a stake in a professional sports franchise are are by and large, not the ones who are actually sitting on the their, their Union’s Executive Committee, right?
BOBBY: Except–
ALEX: LeBron James–
BOBBY: –except LeBron was, he was the vice president of–
ALEX: [58:25]
BOBBY: –the Players Association. And then that was before he had an ownership stake in the Red Sox. But still, he had a huge role in the last CBA.
ALEX: Oh, for sure. I and and I don’t think that negates the the influence at all. But I do wonder if if his other, if his league mates, you know, take that into consideration at all, when doing said voting, right? Mahomes–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –is Patrick Mahomes is his team’s player representative. So clearly, he has some, clearly he has a seat at the table and and you know, a voice in negotiations. But I have to imagine he is not the outsize voice in the room, right?
BOBBY: I don’t know nothing about the NFL players [59:05]–
ALEX: [59:05] I don’t either. So–
BOBBY: I know that they get cleaned up at bargaining every six years because their player pool is recycles very often and their owners have a lot of built in power.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, all all this to say I think that if a, a former player was really interested in enacting change on behalf of the players, you would probably go work for the Union rather than for the owners.
BOBBY: I would [59:31]–
ALEX: If you really–
BOBBY: –though, buy a team and then and then give it to the players or like give them everything they want. That would be sick.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: That’s an experiment we have not seen happen.
ALEX: Yeah, it does.
BOBBY: Okay, I think that’s enough on that question. Last question is a voicemail.
VOICEMAIL 2: Hi, Bobby. Hi Alex, this is Micah again. I want to say thank you for answering my voicemail last week. I appreciate that. Also extremely entertaining listening to you guys, talk about your eating habits. I did not expect to go that long, but I’m really happy that it did. Okay, so obviously, our beloved Rob Manfred addressed the media today, as I’m calling this Thursday. And I need to make a disclaimer. I am not optimistic because he said he’s optimistic. I’m trying to be optimistic, because he talked like, as he talked about the agreements that they have made and the CBA negotiations. As far as like, universal DH, and like the no draft pick compensation and the draft lottery, like all things, I think, are objectively good for the league. So yeah, so like, I’m trying, I guess my question is, is it fair to be a little more optimistic? Or like a decent bit more optimistic than I was, say, a week ago? Because now we know they have agreed on things that aren’t just good for the owners, but good for the league in general. So yeah, thank you guys.
BOBBY: I don’t think it’s bad to be optimistic. I mean, we spent the first hour of this podcast being pretty, pretty pessimistic and reactionary. But I think that Micah is right that, there have been some things that are agreed to particularly, I mean, universal DH is good for the players, not for me, but for the players. And no draft pick compensation is good. Arbitration pool of money is good. I think that the thing that makes me pessimistic and frustrated and just kind of tired of talking about some of this stuff is how, it how it’s been like pulling teeth to get those things. Like, these are things that should have been agreed to in December. And we’re sitting here in February, and we’re still pretending like this is huge movement from the owners. I think that’s probably the reason why I’m a little bit less optimistic than it sounds like Micah is. But the counter to that is the reason to be optimistic is like, yeah, players just seem like they’re not going to take a shitty deal. Which in the long run is good for the game, if you kind of see it through a similar lens to us.
ALEX: Yeah, I think you said it. I mean, I’m not, I don’t lean, optimistic or pessimistic one way or another.
BOBBY: You just really [1:02:09]–
ALEX: [1:02:09] jerk. But shh–exactly, yes. No, I’m I, I you know, I favor objectivity. You know, I’ll–
BOBBY: Okay.
ALEX: –I’ll wait. I’ll wait to see until all the cards are on the table. I mean, honestly, I think it’s, you know, it’s too early to really say, I think there’s no real point in being optimistic or pessimistic about this. Because I ultimately it doesn’t, you know, it’s not going to impact the direction of the negotiations. And I won’t be optimistic until we have a deal, frankly, I’m my biggest, you know, optimism comes from seeing the players solidarity, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: And just how vocal that they have been, I think that’s the biggest thing. As you said, because it’s an indication that maybe they’re not going to roll over. So I don’t know that I see these smaller agreements that they’ve come to as wins necessarily. They, as you said, I mean, they feel more like layups. Like they were kind of a given already. And so sure, it’s a good thing that they did it, because if they didn’t agree on that they sure as hell weren’t going to agree on anything else. But I they’re obviously still super far apart on some of the key issues–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –affecting the sport right now. And so we kind of just have to let it run its course.
BOBBY: I’m just, I’m just happy that, you know, that they were able to agree on those few small things. While getting over the tremendous hurdle, Alex, that is the owners having to negotiate with the hidden hand of the game’s top agent, Scott Boras. You know, it’s just like Tipping Pitches to not mention this bombshell until an hour and 10 minutes into the podcast. But New York Times political reporter, Michael Schmidt, for reasons unbeknownst to me, and I I I assume you unless you were reporting this tweet with Michael Schmidt. Michael Schmidt tweeted, “Baseball faces its greatest labor crisis since the World Series was canceled in ’94. The owners are increasingly convinced Tony Clark and Bruce Meyer have had their power neutered and that owners are actually negotiating against the hidden hand of the game’s top agent Scott Boras.” So long answer to your question Micah is it’s good that they were able to extract. It’s good that Scott Boras was able to extract these moderate concessions from the owners after having having neutered Tony Clark and Bruce Meyer.
ALEX: His influence knows no bounds, seriously.
BOBBY: What happened here? Your best guess as we close out this podcast Why did this guy Tweet this?
ALEX: I think he probably knows some people on the ownership side. And the ownership side is, you know, rightfully from their position at least, peeved that the players have not rolled over and this is their attempt to try and make someone like Scott Boris into the bad guy. Because that’s kind of one of their emmos every offseason, right? Is to point out how Scott Boras is ruining the game by negotiating big contracts or or speaking in tongues.
BOBBY: I I would simply like to know whose signatures go on those contracts other than Scott Boras and the player. To the, to the owners have to sign those? Alex, to the owners have to agree to do that? Is their boogeyman thing of Scott Boras? Like we’ve been had by Mr. Boras, we thought he was with us. And he’s stabbed us in the back. Like he’s a player agent, what do you want him to do? He’s doing his job. It makes no sense to me why they think that fans are going to respond to this weirdo, dark smoke filled room plan to make Scott Boras to be the enemy of this whole CBA negotiation. I just don’t understand it. It’s all misdirection. And it’s like crazy town. And I I feel like, like my sense of reality is skewed when the New York Times political reporter is coming in out of nowhere to tweet this about Scott Boras and then never follow up on it. But he’s just never said anything else after that.
ALEX: Right. And and as a labor lawyer and baseball Twitter favorite Eugene Friedman pointed out he’s accusing the MLBPA of an unfair labor practice. Like this is, this is not just a casual piece of conspiracy that he’s just tossing onto the pie. Like this is a, if that is what is happening. If the, the if the players union is sending people to the table who don’t have the power to bargain on behalf of the Union. That that, the that’s, that’s not gonna allowed–
BOBBY: This what’s called illegal.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: It’s just, man, I just feel like someone is going to come out from behind the door and be like, Bobby and Alex, you’ve been pumped. This whole thing is actually agreed to already. We’ve just been creating a very strict, a very narrow, weird reality for your podcast. In which a New York Times political reporter who used to cover baseball in the early 2000s is gonna tweet that Scott Boras is the secret guiding hand of the Players Association.
ALEX: I don’t know how to respond other, other than that, I appreciate that whoever is pulling this on us.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Whoever is doing the punking here has listened to enough of our podcasts to know just how mad this would drive us.
BOBBY: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
ALEX: It’s, it takes a really intimate knowledge of you and, you and my neuroses to craft an alternate reality. This hyper specific, just perfectly gets under our skin. So kudos, kudos, I’m waiting for Ashton Kutcher.
BOBBY: Simulation theory thriving at the end of this episode of Tipping Pitches. Thank you for listening. We will be back next week, not sure what we’re going to be talking about. Of course, I’ve alluded multiple times now to the reporting of a special climate series about climate and Baseball. And Alex and I are still hard at work on that. It’s, it’s going to be coming up in the coming months. If you are interested in the topic of climate and Baseball and have anything that you think we might be interested in. Please write in tippingpitchespod@gmail.com, tipping_pitches on Twitter. As always, you can acquire yourself some Tipping Pitches merch at tiny.cc\nationalize. And you can call our voicemail to be featured on the show 785-422-5881. And please do call our voicemail, because chances are we’re not going to have a CBA to talk about next week. So we’ll need something to talk about. Alex, anything else? For the wonderful listeners of this hear podcast?
ALEX: No, unfortunately, I have to run I have to go and eat a spoonful of protein powder and do CrossFit in the snow. So I got a I got a dip. But–
BOBBY: CrossFit is not going to get you the size you’re looking for. Cross–
ALEX: I–
BOBBY: –you’re burning, you’re burning too much of those gains off. What you want do is you just want to sit there and pump, just pump. We’ll talk about it offline. Just–
ALEX: All right.
BOBBY: –monohydrate, let’s go.
ALEX: Keep, keep an eye on the feed folks until I get my own up and running. I’m gonna be using Tipping Pitches to, to post, post my progress pics.
BOBBY: Thanks so much for listening everyone, we’ll be back next week.
[1:10:04]
[Music]
[1:10:16]
[Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya.
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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