Alex and Bobby banter about a potential ARod-Cast for Sunday Night Baseball, and then give their not-so-surprised reactions to MLB Network letting Ken Rosenthal go. Then, they bring on Andrea Williams, author of “Baseball’s Leading Lady: Effa Manley and the Rise and Fall of the Negro Leagues,” to discuss her interest in Manley and the impetus for writing a children’s book about her, reevaluating Branch Rickey’s legacy, the lasting impact of the dearth of Black executives in 20th century baseball, the ongoing recognition of the Negro Leagues by MLB, and much more.
Follow Andrea on Twitter at @AndreaWillWrite.
Links:
Jackie Robinson and the death of the Negro Leagues
The erasure of baseball’s Black executives and managers
ESPN to consider an ARod-Cast for Sunday Night Baseball
MLB Network declines to bring back Ken Rosenthal
Songs featured in this episode:
The B-52’s — “Give Me Back My Man” • Melba Moore — “Standing Right Here” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and and and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about. It’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY: Alex says, you know, it is our journalistic responsibility to chronicle Alex Rodriguez, his midlife crisis for our listeners. So I thought that we could start this week by talking about two Instagram posts. Is that okay with you?
ALEX: Thank you. Yes, I’m so glad we’re gonna talk about these.
BOBBY: Okay, good. So Alex Rodriguez, @arod. You guys might be familiar with his work in Major League Baseball. His last two Instagram posts are of note to Tipping Pitches who care a lot about his midlife crisis, as it unfolds before our very eyes. We he he, this is his favorite podcast, so it’s important for us to speak directly to the man. Two days ago he posted a photo of himself with a Marlins Minor Leaguer and a former Marlins Minor Leaguer. Three men standing there on a balcony with the sunset behind them. And the caption is, “Kill ,f*ck, marry go!”. Really? We’re doing, we’re doing, marry one, kill one, talk one on Instagram?
ALEX: You are Alex Rodriguez.
BOBBY: Alex Rodriguez–
ALEX: You do not need to be doing this.
BOBBY: One of the greatest Baseball players ever, full stuffs.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: Like–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –steroids aside, whatever. We’re not going to do a steroids debate right now.
ALEX: No.
BOBBY: Marry one, kill one, fuck one. Fuck one, kill one, marry one. Whatever order it’s supposed to go, I don’t even know. I think he got the order wrong. I’ve been played this since middle school.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Like I I, he’s 46 years old, Alex.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: He’s 46.
ALEX: Yeah, also I respect that he, that he put a little asterisk where the “U” should be in the word fuck, you know–
BOBBY: Oh, right.
ALEX: –to like–
BOBBY: One.
ALEX: –keep is to keep his his feed family friendly.
BOBBY: Oh, right, right. Yeah.
ALEX: I just, I assume he has a social media team, right? Like he does not individually post each of these photos. But like, was this a request that he made? Was he like, he’s like, I got an idea for for a caption here. He’s like, maybe maybe he went rogue. He just posted this himself.
BOBBY: I think that he went rogue.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: You could probably track and celebrities declined by the ratio of posts that they make, to the ones that their social media team makes like, the more often your social media team is posting for you, the better you’re doing, period! You should just never post if you’re that famous.
ALEX: I unless you’re running for President of the United States [2:49]–
BOBBY: Okay, all right. Okay. And then 43 minutes ago, here’s the other Instagram post in question. It’s an, it’s an old photo of him, I believe. He’s looking trim, he’s looking, he’s looking pretty trim in this post. And the caption is, “It’s a new year, ready to take it to the next level!?! [fire emoji] I am focused and determined! Who wants to hold yourself accountable with me? Share your goals with me below, here are mine.” Here, Alex Rodriguez’ goals, fitness goals for 2022. “Eat Clean.” That’s a made up concept that doesn’t exist. “High Protein – low carbs. Train consistently – cardio five times a week. Weightlifting – 4x per week (2 days heavy). Two heavy days, Alex, are you in on that? “Let there be no excuses!!! We can all post a picture in 30 days!” This is just like baseline fitness influencer caption.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: This is one of the greatest Baseball players of all time, need I remind you. Talking about clean eating and lifting heavy two days a week. Like what is he, what is he going for? is he’s trying to build a roster of celebrity clients? Like what is happening here?
ALEX: I I also enjoy that he he posted the post twice on his story, right. Like he post–he posted the photo the shirtless photo of him in the water. Like poor, like a poor quality photo to you know? Like, it looks like this might be like–
BOBBY: It is definitely–
ALEX: –paparazzi–
BOBBY: –like a TMZ photo.
ALEX: Yeah, uh-hmm. And then to make sure that you didn’t miss it. Repost it to his story, and then repost the caption as well. This man has hundreds of millions of dollars.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: But you know what? Sometimes, sometimes you just got [4:31] for yourself, right?
BOBBY: Hundreds of millions of dollars. And apparently an offer for ESPN to do his own Manning cast. The Alex Rodriguez version for Sunday Night Baseball. We’re gonna talk about that in one second. We are later in this episode, going talk, going to talk to the wonderful Andrea Williams. The author of Baseball’s Leading Lady: Effa Manley and the Rise and Fall of the Negro Leagues. Well obviously, we’ll of course hit on Ken Rosenthal being fired from MLB Network or not being renewed from MLB Network. But before we do all of that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley.
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches. Alex Rodriguez’ favorite podcast.
[5:11]
[Music Theme]
BOBBY: Alex, what did you make of the Rodriguez cast? Rod-rig cast, Alex cast, still working on that? We ma–for those of the, for those listening who don’t know, ESPN put out a press release saying that they would be mixing up their Baseball Broadcasts in 2022. And they’re thinking of giving Alex Rodriguez a similar thing that they gave Peyton Manning and Eli Manning for their NFL coverage. Which is like a, I don’t even know how to describe it like a Quasi Broadcast, Quasi Podcast alongside live broadcasts of Baseball games. It it’s, if you, if you don’t know about it, just Google Manning cast, there’s like, a cadre of sports media reporters sharing a million takes about it, if you’re really interested. But ESPN announced they were thinking of doing that for Alex Rodriguez. So so what do you think?
ALEX: I love this. I’m so excited for this–
BOBBY: I know, everybody was like, they don’t have their, ESPN couldn’t have their finger further from the pulse of the Baseball watching community. And I’m sitting there like, this is sorry, sorry to the Baseball. This is bad for Baseball, but this is great for our content,
ALEX: Right. Uh huh. First and foremost, it means he’d be out of the Sunday Night Baseball booth, which I think, I think we can consider that a win.
BOBBY: Which they confirmed when they announced that they would be changing the booth this year to call Ravitch as the play by play guy instead of Matt Vasgersian. And the two color guys will be David Cone, who announces games for the YES Network from the Yankees and Mets pitcher. He’s actually a wonderful color analyst, I love what he does. And Eduardo Pérez.
ALEX: Yeah, radical transformation for the spoof.
BOBBY: Oh my god, it’s just like 0 to 100. And over on ESPN to, Alex, if you’re yearning for some Michael K. And some Alex Rodriguez, tune in to the Manning cast, but A. Rod version.
ALEX: I just hope it’s like slightly more unhinged than he is on you know, regular Sunday Night Baseball broadcasts. Like I hope that the training wheels are off, so to speak. Like, just let him go, let him talk about whatever he wants to talk about. I mean, there’s actually a world in which having Alex, Alex Rodriguez, talk about Baseball. Talk about a Baseball game without trying to like be a formal analyst is actually maybe kind of an interesting [7:44]–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –I mean, again, he is one of the greatest Baseball players of all time. And at times, has lent some occasionally interesting insights when he’s not talking about like, bunting or or going the the other way. You know–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –not not trying for homerun. Like, I I I don’t want to hear him tell stories. I want to hear him just like shoot the shit.
BOBBY: I want Alex Rodriguez minus his need for gravitas. Do you–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –know what I mean? Like–
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: –he thinks that he needs to like, emulate the type of baseball broadcast that he grew up listening to. I almost think that how much he loves baseball and how big of a baseball fan he is, is a detriment to him on Sunday Night Baseball. Because he’s like, I just have to press all the same buttons that I saw pressed when I was a kid because that’s what everybody’s gonna want. Nobody really wants to hear him. Everybody wants him to talk about Derek Jeter and shit. Like, we need to just get him in this ESPN to and loosen them up a little bit, you know?
ALEX: Yeah. I, every time they show the booth on Sunday Night Baseball, I like crack a smile because he just looks like he’s taking himself so serious. You know, he always–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –has a really like furrowed brow. Like he’s listening really, really intently. And it’s like, dude, it is so not that serious.
BOBBY: It’s Baseball.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: It’s, maybe the least serious.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: Of all regular seasons in all sports in the entire world, it is maybe the least serious game.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: From one piece of broadcasting news to another piece of broadcasting news, Alex. Twitter exploded last week. I was kind of surprised about this.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: When news leaked out courtesy of Andrew Marchand of the New York Post. That Ken Rosenthal would not be renewed on MLB Network, because of an article that he wrote criticizing how Rob Manfred handled the return to play during the pandemic. That that was sort of the the seed that was planted that Rob Manfred was like don’t bring this guy back when his contract is up. His contract was up at the end of 2021. That happened last week, and it was not renewed. I was surprised how many people had strong feelings about this. Were you?
ALEX: Yeah, we we [10:00] dangerously into like, Ken Rosenthal is the voice of the people–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –territory.
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: Like he is like he is an essential piece of understanding baseball in 2022. Which like, you know, kudos to Ken Rosenthal, I guess. I mean, he is incredibly knowledgeable about the game and provides loads more insight than say someone like Alex Rodriguez. Largely due to the connections he has with people inside the game. But but it it came off as if, like Rob Manfred is silencing the like free press, you know. And I, first they came for Ken Rosenthal, and I–
BOBBY: [10:43]
ALEX: –said, need nothing.
BOBBY: I is this just like our Tipping Pitches skewed brain where we expect the absolute worst from Major League Baseball all of the time. Because certainly I don’t agree with this type of behavior from leagues, but it’s not unprecedented.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: That–
ALEX: [11:02]
BOBBY: –league and a Commissioner. I mean, Google David Stern, he literally had announcers removed from NBA broadcasts on ESPN, like on ABC. He’s like, I just don’t like how this guy sounds. Like this is what Commissioners do. They enact petty vendettas, because any challenge to their power inconveniences them.
ALEX: Yeah, it didn’t seem like the most surprising thing. I mean, to be fair, it’s an incredibly bold mood. Kevin Rosenthal, by and large, like among baseball fans. I think is, is regarded whether it’s earned or not, as one of them the as I mean, he is arguably the most prominent Baseball Reporter out there right–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –now, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: So, it it’s definitely like, kind of gutsy to do this. Like, it’s not surprising, but it is, like Rob Manfred is the Commissioner of a Baseball league. Like why like, what does he really care? What Rob–what Ken Rosenthal is writing about him? I mean, I understand that, like, Ken Rosenthal has a lot of sway. But he also does just as much PR work for the league as any–
BOBBY: [12:15]
ALEX: –sort of actual analysis. Yeah.
BOBBY: I think that people underestimate how thin skinned Management is just like the General Management in all places, like your–
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: –job. Everybody’s job, you underestimate. Our any piece of criticism can really get into a person score.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: I mean, like, think about, okay, Alex, let’s pretend you’re Rob Manfred for a sec. You just have to eat shit 30 billionaires all of the time. And all you want, all you want is just a little bit of validation, just a little bit of validation. And that ain’t one person in the world is going to give it to you. And not even Ken Rosenthal on your own state media. I mean, it’s not even like Rosenthal criticized him on MLB Network. He did it at the athletic, which I think was part of the reason that people were so up in arms about it. It’s like, you’re enacting this vendetta over something that didn’t even happen at your company, It happens to–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –somewhere else.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But like, I don’t know. I just don’t have the energy to like storm MLB headquarters, because of this. Like people get fired over their tweets, you know?
ALEX: Yeah. Yeah, I just I I’m kind of like like Ken Rosenthal will be okay, also, right? Like he still works for the athletes or so works for the New York Times. He still has his you know, job at Fox Sports. Like he is still there, you know. He’s not [13:38]–
BOBBY: Ken Rosenthal should become like a red pill I was the platformed the guy. Silenced, I’m shadow banned by MLB, this is kind of the opposite of shadow banned. This is like sunlight banned.
ALEX: He was like, you know, he was taken off air for a few months. I think following the, the articles. And it was it was largely unnoticed. And there was no statement or announcement made about it and like that, that feels closer to a shadow ban than anything. I mean, this is this is just out out in the open. You know, and I and I hope wherever he ends up Ken Rosenthal lands on his feet. You know, it’s a it’s a tough job market out there right now.
BOBBY: It just felt like a lot of people just discovering the evils of at will employment all at once.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: But in defense of Ken Rosenthal, like the richest Baseball Reporter in the world.
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s obviously bullshit. Let me just say that to wrap up this conversation. It’s–
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: –obviously bullshit. I guess this kills our negotiations to host this podcast on MLB Network.
ALEX: Yes, does. We were we were in talks.
BOBBY: Advanced talks.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. Well, I guess we’ll have to settle for the the Tipping Pitches cast on ESPN.
BOBBY: No, I’m not settling for a penny less than the athletic to the New York Times.
ALEX: So true.
BOBBY: Prepare to take the train to Penn Station brother. Uhm, really quickly before we begin Andrea Williams. The status of labor negotiations, it’s pretty dark at the moment. Like we got Evan Drellich out here writing like Q&A’s with people who were formerly kind of involved in NBA CBA negotiations. Like that is the most recent update that we’ve gotten on, on CBA negotiations between MLB and MLBPA. We we learned that they will discuss core economics later this month, which is good. Because otherwise, why are they even meeting? But we also learned, Alex, which I thought was one of the more interesting things to come out of the news this past week. That on December 1st, which was the last day that the two sides met, to try to hammer out a CBA. Nobody thought that they were going to get a CBA. However, a previous act of aggression that had not been reported, if I’m, if I’m remembering correctly was that, Major League Baseball said that they did not want to discuss core economics that day.
ALEX: Arguably, the only reason the two of them are are negotiating are at odds.
BOBBY: And that’s when they left, after–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –the Players Association was like, we’re here to talk about core economics. And MLB was like, we’re here to talk about comma placement. Like, what? What else are you talking about? It’s the last–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: –day dude.
ALEX: Yeah, we we want to go back and revisit our conversation about the DH. Uhm, that’s really what we’re prepared to discuss at the moment.
BOBBY: We have a whole [16:33]–
ALEX: We are not gonna talk arbitration.
BOBBY: We have a whole PowerPoint here on what font, we should print the CBA in.
ALEX: Uh-hmm. I’m partial to Montserrat. But you know, I could be convinced otherwise.
BOBBY: I like Georgia.
ALEX: Uhmm. Versus [16:47]. Yeah, well, we’ll, we haven’t even determine whether we’re doing Sara for Sam [16:50]
BOBBY: [16:50]–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –exactly.
ALEX: And which I mean, that is the discussion–
BOBBY: I mean, the Oxford comma conversation is going to take at least a couple hours to really hammer out.
ALEX: Oh, yeah yeah.
BOBBY: I’m willing to give on the Oxford comma, if we’re willing to go up one point and font so that it’s easier to read for all of our older members more inclusive.
ALEX: Uh-hmm, that that makes sense. I’d I’d love to see the last CBA was single spaced. And I’d love to see at least 1.5 space.
BOBBY: Yeah, yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Easily how do we 1.5. But you don’t want to do [17:18], you don’t scare people away with the length.
ALEX: Right. [17:21]–
BOBBY: It’s a delicate talent [17:21]–
ALEX: What is, what is this a college essay? Like, you know–
BOBBY: We’ll talk about revenue sharing later.
ALEX: Bizarre.
BOBBY: Bizarre state of things right now, super weird. Okay, so we don’t have a lot to talk about with Baseball in the present. So let’s talk a little bit about Baseball in the past. I mentioned we’re going to talk to Andrea Williams. It was a great conversation. She wrote a book about Effa Manley, who we’ve talked a little bit about on this podcast in the past. Who was the primary Owner and Manager, Executive of the Newark Eagles, who were one of the best Baseball teams of the Negro Leagues. They played in the Negro National Leagues from 1936 to 1948. Effa owned the team along with her husband Abe. So we wanted to talk to her a little bit about, you know, as kind of an extension of this conversation about Major League Baseball, reckoning slash not reckoning with its past and including Negro League stats. But not talking about why they were excluded in the first place. And, and also, you know, she writes so compellingly about all of these things, and I I think makes a pretty good case for a reexamination of the history of Branch Rickey, who’s a cardinal figure probably in a lot of people’s baseball, Mount Rushmore. So let’s go to that conversation with Andrea.
[18:38]
[Transition Music]
ALEX: Okay, we are joined now by Andrea Williams, Author of the recently published biography on Effa Manley, Baseball’s Leading Lady. Also co author of the book, We Are Family with one LeBron James he–
BOBBY: Heard of some [19:02]–
ALEX: Some some of you folks may have heard of him–
BOBBY: [19:05] presence.
ALEX: Andrea, welcome.
ANDREA: Hi. Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
ALEX: Thank you for, thank you for doing this. Listeners don’t know the months of planning that it took to to get this on the books.
ANDREA: Yeah.
ALEX: But we are, we are here, we are in one space altogether. And and I’m I’m really excited to to have this conversation.
ANDREA: Yeah, same.
ALEX: Before we dive into the the kind of nitty gri–I mean, you you [19:33] a lot about the Negro Leagues and as I mentioned, you’ve you’ve written about Effa Manley as well. But first like how, how are you? How are things in in your world world right now in 2022 mid pandemic? No, baseball lockout. How are you, how are you doing?
ANDREA: I am doing okay. I am, right now, like in this exact moment, I am in my closet. Video is not on, because my kids, my co–well the video’s on, but my closet is a mess. But I’m in my closet because my kids and my husband are sick. And we don’t know if it’s COVID because it is so hard to even get a test. But we–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: –are, you know, treating it as such. And tell those little suckers that can’t get next to me. Because I can’t have their [20:22], and I’ve been holding it down. Look I’ve been say for like, a week. So your girl is like holding out. But yeah, other than that, I mean, at the end of last year, I had some health issues that I think were brought on, just by a lot of like, overwork slash dealing with the pandemic slash just being like, frustrated and upset about all the things and the fact that I’m just one little person in the midst of it, who, you know. I I I think that, you know, writing is powerful and has the real potential to to change lives and systems. But you know, on the day to day, it is exhausting. So, you know, kind of took some time to sit back and, you know, reassess, like how I wanted to treat the New Year trying to keep my head down, try not to spend a lot of time on Twitter. Which is difficult also, because, you know, I do a lot of stuff in the country music space, which is a whole disaster, you know, in and of itself. But, you know, just, you know, it’s early, it’s day nine. So–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
ANDREA: –so far, so good on the, you know, keep my head down, getting the work done. You know, I’ve had a couple conversations with my agent this year. Uhm, big stuff in store, so, yeah.
ALEX: That’s awesome. That’s why, well, I’m I’m glad you are doing better. The the burnout is real. And I can’t I mean–
ANDREA: Yeah.
ALEX: –I I say that just working like a normal nine to five, I can’t even imagine what that’s, you know, being a full time writer between, you know, pitching stories and, and writing about weighty topics too, right,? You know, like writing about institutionalized racism in in in baseball’s history or whatever it is that they is, it’s not easy, for sure.
ANDREA: It’s not, it’s not, but you know, it’s also that whole, like, if we don’t do the work, then does the work get done kind of thing.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: So I don’t know, that’s at least, you know, the conversation that I have with myself, so–
ALEX: Uh-hmm. So, I I kind of wanted to talk about that a little bit, some of the decisions that, you know, you made about what stories you kind of like to pursue. And, and as I mentioned, you wrote this book Baseball’s Leading Lady, about Effa Manley, who is the was the first woman inducted into the the Hall of Fame. She’s an Owner in the in the Negro Leagues. And she has a really interesting story that a a you know, in Baseball’s kind of long history is very rarely discussed. And you wrote this, this book about her that is targeted towards kind of a younger audience, it seems like. And I was kind of curious, just where your interest in her got started. You know, what was kind of the impetus for for you to want to write this book, also with the the audience that you had in mind.
ANDREA: Yeah, uhm, I my degrees in Sport Management. I started working at the Negro Leagues right after undergrad at the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, sorry. Right after undergrad and you know, as a Sport Management Major, I, you know, the goal at the time was to be a General Manager of Major League Baseball team. So I was always on the lookout for, you know, women who were who were doing the work that I wanted to do. At that time, there were no women who’d ever been appointed to that position in Major League Baseball. But you know, I was always looking around, you know, killing at the time, when I was an undergrad, like, I remember being at the Yankees as an Assistant GM. Uhm, but it was really eye opening for me, when I started working at the museum and learned about Effa because she was doing all the things. She was a black woman doing all the things. And she was a black woman doing all the things in like the 30s and 40s. So it was a real I mean, it was a huge revelatory moment for me. Because yeah, here I am thinking nobody’s done it. And certainly hadn’t, you know, considered a black woman hadn’t considered what that really meant at the time, not just because social expectations of women, black women in particular. But also the real significance of the Negro Leagues and these teams in these communities, not just giving an opportunity to baseball players to take the field. But also creating an environment where you have an Effa Manley who can run a Baseball team, right? Like, we don’t have any women in Cooperstown if not for the existence of the Negro Leagues, right? Like, Effa is not the first woman, she co own this team with her husband. She’s not the first woman on a Baseball team. There are many white women who, you know, had inherited teams from from fathers or husbands and things like that. But they weren’t running the day to day, because of, you know, these, these expectations and these unspoken rules about what women can and cannot do. The Negro Leagues didn’t operate like that, for many reasons, including the fact that really, you know, it was all all hands on deck. They they were trying to be successful, you know, they, they didn’t have the money to say, Okay, well, we own the team, but we’re gonna hire a President and a GM and three other people in the Front Office, and they didn’t have the money for that. So Effa really had to step in and figure it out. You know, she talked about how her husband, you know, the the first season that they had the team. He’s off in spring training, and he just starts kicking her stuff, like, yeah, take care of this, and then take care of that. And she’s like, I don’t know what I’m doing. But evidently, I’m gonna figure it out. So it was, all of this was just, it was just really exciting to me, it really opened my eyes in terms of what is possible. Even after I was like, yeah, I don’t know, if I want to work in Baseball anymore. It was still, it was still inspiring, because, and this goes into why I wrote the book for kids. You know, we talk a lot about, you know, seeing it, in order to believe it, or to know that it’s possible. And, you know, so much for me, as a kid who grew up at the time, you know, when I was, you know, 12, 13, 14, the the age group that I’m targeting with this book. I knew that I wanted to work in Baseball Men and I didn’t even know what was possible, really. Because I didn’t, there was my my vantage was limited in terms of what I could see other people doing, particularly women that looked like me. So I wanted to create, essentially, the book that I needed when I was kid. That that’s what it really starts with. And you know, a lot a lot of authors talk about that, you know, in, and people who give writing advice is like, write the book that you needed to read, you know. If when you were a kid, if you’re writing for young people write that book. And so I wanted to do that. I also, even for kids who don’t want to work in Baseball, don’t like Baseball at all. Uhm, I think I think this book does a really good job. Uhm, at least I tried to do a really good job, maybe a little more humble on that, I tried to do a really good job of weaving in, you know, a lot of stuff beyond what was happening on the field, a lot of stuff happening in society. When we teach history to kids, we teach in these isolated moments. And none of that is how it actually works, right? Like, it’s not just the Negro, these Effa Manley’s Newark Eagles, Eagles team operating in this Baseball bubble. They are impacted by everything going on in society. They’re impacted by institutional racism, everywhere you go. They’re impacted by World War II. They’re impacted by all of the, all of these different things, the the intro racial issues that we’re having, as black people try to figure out how the heck do we move beyond this quote, unquote, “second class status” in this country. All of these things I tried to weave in to this book. So even if you’re not in the Baseball, this is still a great opportunity to really learn what is happening in the 30s and 40s actually start earlier than that, because I talked about, you know, the beginning of Baseball, why we have the Negro Leagues to begin with. So that hopefully, you know, I was a kid before, history isn’t always exciting. It’s important, but it’s not always exciting. Hopefully, this is a thing that people can, that kids can get a hold of, and start to learn, you know, about where we come from, and why we’re still here, you know. In a package that is compelling, because, you know, it’s got all the exciting sports stuff.
BOBBY: Yeah, I, we talk a lot of on this show about how Baseball is in a in a lot of ways, it mirrors the history of the United States. The history of Baseball, is is going alongside. Because it’s been around for so long, and all of these different societal factors affected. And I think that in in a certain type of Baseball talk or like a certain way that people tell baseball history, the way that the Hall of Fame is chosen to tell Baseball history–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –for a lot of its past. That has been this sort of white centric, this MLB only version, and now they’re kind of starting to embrace the Negro Leagues in a more serious way. I wonder what you make of kind of like having lived in this 30s and 40s era for so long in researching this book and writing and writing this book? I wonder what you make of Baseball today and and where we’ve come from then and maybe what lessons? Baseball has learned baseball, like the wider umbrella has learned, and where we’re still kind of coming up short?
ANDREA: Yeah, I mean, I am, I’m make of it that this is where we should have expected to be, honestly. If we’re talking specifically about, about black representation in the sport, this, this is where we were always going to be. Uhm, I don’t think if you take an objective eye to what happened, you know, in 1945, when Jackie signed, and then going into 46, when you’ve got this handful of other athletes that are signed. I think it’s hard to say, huh, well, I wonder why there are no Managers, you know. No black Executives, they only wanted players, they said that from–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: –the beginning.
BOBBY: Yeah.ANDREA: They only wanted a handful of players. There was there was not, you know, this mass influx of of black players, even if they wanted to just focus on the bodies on the field. There wasn’t a lot of them. Uhm, you know, even as we look and say, huh, well, there sure are a lot of Latinos. Yeah, well, they always had more opportunity. Absolutely Major League Baseball was was was more interested in in working with Latino players, and they were black American players, that is the descendants of the enslaved. None of this is a surprise. I mean, we can even talk about, you know, what happened with or what’s happening, you know, with the Minor League system? Yeah, well, I mean, this is, this is our rhetoric, he said about people. And then y’all decided he was Jesus, because he signed Jackie Robinson. So again, we never took a critical eye at these things. This is why we are here now, a 100%.
BOBBY: Yeah, I, I’m glad you brought up Branch Rickey, because you know, in your wonderful piece for The New York Times, which was kind of one of the impetus of why we wanted to talk to you. We have no right to destroy them, which comes from a quote from one of the Owners of in Major League Baseball at the time. You talked a lot about Branch Rickey, and I’m I’m curious, how you parse his legacy today? Because there there is definitely a learned wisdom about who Branch Rickey is what–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –he meant to the history of Baseball, what he means to the history of baseball? And I think that it takes an extra effort to get past that learned wisdom that not a lot of baseball fans even know to try to take. And, you know, we’re sitting here in 2022, talking about MLB embracing the history of the Negro Leagues. Including their stats and everything like that, without kind of updating that learned wisdom. So so you having written a book about one of the Owners and written a lot about the Negro Leagues in general. How do you kind of parse what that learned wisdom is and how we should update it?
ANDREA: Yes. Uhm, Branch Rickey, and I always liking it like to like today. Like, we have lots of conversations and a lot of this, this is just because of how the media landscape has changed. We have podcasts like yours, we have talk radio, you know, we have a lot of journalists doing great work. So we’re not getting these, you know, these these kind of package statements or ideals from, from Executives, or General Managers in Baseball and across sport without picking that stuff apart. Like we know better, right? Like, I think I even go so far as to say that fans in the public in general, tend to be skeptical about what Executives in sports are saying to us. And about how they’re treating their athletes and running their teams. Because we understand that sports is this multi billion dollar industry and they’re in it to make money, okay? We didn’t really have that back then it was an entirely different landscape. And so what I, what I tried to do, what I tried to do in this book is not really tell people what to think so much as just laying out all the information as if I was hosting a a Sports Podcast or Baseball talk radio show. And I’m saying, here’s what happened. And then here’s what happened after that. And then here’s what he did after that. Take that, you know, take take with that what you will. I think what happened, though, I know what happened, actually, is that we have this intentional effort. And a lot of this is because of who controlled the pin and who controlled the story. We had this really intentional spinning of what actually happened. And there were a lot of people complicit in that. Not from a malicious perspective, but just because, you know, a lot of people thought that you know, speaking specifically about Branch Rickey signed Jackie Robinson that this was it, right? Like this is the thing that is going to change baseball is going to change society. See, this is the 40s. Right? Like there is no Montgomery Bus Boycott, we only have Brown versus Board yet, this is the thing. And so a lot of people said, Okay, well, let’s see how this goes. So they have, they sat back and essentially allowed, I don’t think they knew it at the time. But they allowed this story to be crafted. These black Owners who had their player stolen, didn’t want to speak up. Because they didn’t want to look like they were impeding this progress that all of these black people have been asking for for so very long. They allow the story to be crafted. That paints Branch Rickey as the savior. And so now that we know better now that we are, you know, more willing, I think, in part because of how we are willing to, to to view the the careers and the actions and the motives of current day Executives and Owners. Now we’re willi–we we’re willing to at least reconsider Branch Rickey. But but the thing that I want people to take away from this is not just whether Branch Rickey was a good guy or a bad guy, or just in it for the money or whatever, whatever. It’s, this is how we got to look at all of history.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: All of it. Like, again, if Baseba–is this microcosm for all, all of society, which you mentioned, in which I absolutely agree with, we got to go back through all of it. Like, why are we trusting, we’re talking about, you know, this era in Baseball history where there was complete segregation. Then we have this little trickle of black players. And so all of a sudden, it’s okay, that the only stories that we’ve gotten from what was happening in that time, and its larger impact were white guys, like that doesn’t even make sense, that it makes sense. So if we take that and we understand that sport mirror society, who what else do we have to now go back and reconsider and take a more critical eye to.
ALEX: On this on this podcast, we talk, we don’t mince words, about–
ANDREA: Good.
ALEX: –uhm, you know, being kind of labor oriented, we tend to see, you know, in 2022, is ownership as the, arguably the greatest threat to the sport itself right now, and and the future of it. And I’m I’m wondering, kind of, you know, I mean, Effa Manley is, was in, was an Owner of a Negro Leagues team, but also was much more than that. I mean, she was an activist and in the community, and she was very outspoken. But I’m wondering kind of how you balance, you know, telling the story of someone who is in a position that typically it has not been friendly to to people like her being in that spot. But also recognizing the kind of, you know, inherent, like, oppositional nature of, you know, a being an Owner of being an Executive, right? Being the the Manager, so to speak. I mean, was that something that kind of you thought about at all while you were while you were writing this book?
ANDREA: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there there, there’s a moment actually where, you know, Effa loss Monte Irvin to to Mexico for a year. Because she didn’t want to increase his contract for like, I mean, in insignificant sum. Like, this is like–
ALEX: Right.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: –we’re talking about like, no money here. And she was like, I’m standing firm and the answer’s [38:29]–
ALEX: Yeah yeah.
ANDREA: So, of course, that stuff comes up. Uhm, but then, and this is why I’m weaving in all of this stuff, and making sure that it’s not just a Baseball story. We also have to understand the larger context here, right? Effa and her husband, they are black people who own this team, and they are black people who own a team in the 30s and 40s. So what do we know about black people, and how they move through society in the 30s and 40s, their access to Capitol, how they can grow and build businesses, right? All of that has to be taken into consideration. Am I saying that she shouldn’t have given money over that extra 25 and $50? No, I’m not saying that. But I’m saying it is not an exact apples to apples comparison of what we see today with ownership. Negro Leagues teams, and their Owners. And this is not to say that there weren’t some bad apples in those bunches. But for the most part, there was an understanding that this was of the people, for the people, by the people. We don’t have that today in Major League Baseball, and it makes all the difference in the world. I think Effa and and and and this is not always something that the players even understood, right? Like, you know, Effa at one point talked about the fact that they’ve lost over $100,000, just trying to operate this team when she leaves Baseball. She’s like, hey man, this is this is a rich man sport. This is, this for your rig leagues. And you know, these people that have these outside entities that are making buckets of cash that they can get then dump into this as another revenue stream. For a lot of these Negro Leagues Owners, this was the end all be all. And so they did have to be cognizant of purse strings, because also, if their business falls apart, where else do these people go? If the Newark Eagles fall apart, can we guarantee that her entire baseball team as well as the staff have somewhere else to go? So the context around it is a lot different, when we’re talking about how these Owners relate it to their players and also to the community at large. You know, Effa was doing things like, you know, taking part of proceeds, and, and giving free tickets to kids in the community so that they could come and see these great black men were playing this fabulous sport. They also just didn’t have a lot of money going around, right? Like, their profits, their margin is so small, like a tiny, tiny profit margin. Because they’re paying for stadium rental fees. They’re paying booking agents, a lot of times on top of the stadium rental fees. All of these things have to be considered.
BOBBY: Effa’s story is so interesting to me, because it is like, everything about it is like what we’ve lost with MLB today, and it’s just such an interesting case study of like the way that MLB the size of it, the entrenched aspect of it. The antitrust exemption of it if you want to go into the league leese–
ANDREA: Hmm.
BOBBY: –of it.
ANDREA: Yeah.
BOBBY: The way that it just like sucks up all the air around it. And just by its very nature, the size of it just just dominates everything. Like this was if you read this, you know, some of the quotes that Effa said at the time or in this letter to Sir Posey, who was the Manager of the Homestead Grays. We’re just, she says we’re very stupid to sit tight and not open our mouth with the stuff he’s pulling, referring to Branch Rickey about signing away players with no compensation. And I love the way that you, you put that, Andrea, just like we have to go back and assess each individual, you know, period in our history, in baseball and in our wider history, but specifically to this conversation with baseball. Because we weren’t talking about like equity versus equality at that moment, or the people who were telling that story at the time. We’re not talking about equity versus equality. And that’s so interesting to me, because, you know, we talk about labor, and we talk about the value of labor on this podcast all the time as it pertains to Baseball, Minor League, or Major League. And this is like, one of the biggest affronts to [42:36] labor power–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –in baseball history right here. Happening right in front of everyone’s eyes and Branch Rickey, who’s thought of as like this guy who revolutioni–revolutionized the farm system to modernize baseball, was also doing this other thing on the side at the same time.
ANDREA: Right. Well, I think they’re related. I don’t even think it’s the other thing on the side. I think they’re related. I think everything about how Branch Rickey moved was now, in times of looking at him as a Baseball Executive running a team, you know. Putting on winning field on, a a winning team on the field and making a lot of money. He’s great, he’s fabulous. Like I tell people all the time, this guy is getting into the hall before he ever gets to Brooklyn. Because of what he did in St. Louis.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: And everything about that was fielding a team with as little money as possible. That is why we did this farm system, where they’re going around and you know, owning all of these smaller independent teams, but then also signing players for little or no money that they can hold and then decide whether they want to bring them up or sell them on the open market. That is all to save a book.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: And so when he gets to Brooklyn, and he’s now trying to replicate this dynasty that he created in St. Louis, he’s still trying to save a buck. He’s saying [43:50], he’s in his 60s now, he is like firmly entrenched as that guy. It’s all the same.
BOBBY: It’s wild to me, though, that that is just the dominant ethos still. Like that is the dominant wisdom of Executives to this day. Well, it’s not, it’s not as important to save a buck as it used to be because of all of these different cable deals, the streaming rights, the–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –licensing. So the way–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –that Baseball has blown up and become international. Video–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –games, trading cards, all this stuff that even Branch Rickey didn’t have. Like with all of his advantages–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –at the time. And certainly that family did not have when it was just Baseball for the community, by the community, as you said [44:29]–
ANDREA: But it but it’s always it’s always to maximize profits as much as possible. So it’s great that we have these multibillion dollar TV deals. But how can I still continue to shave the line on how much I’m spending on player salaries?
BOBBY: Yup.
ANDREA: How can I get it down to the smallest number possible?
BOBBY: That’s the idea of Owners. I mean, that that that is it it like was laid, the foundation was laid then and even though it’s not as necessary as it used to be now it’s like, it it’s just in their DNA, in a way that I don’t think that we can ever fully extract and these stories are also tied together. It’s just so–
ANDREA: Yeah.
BOBBY: –interesting to me.
ANDREA: Yeah. And I think it just comes down to having the conversations which we haven’t done enough of, you know, Branch Rickey, again, being a savvy as he was, he is able to play on the emotions, particularly of black people. Even if white people are none the wiser. Branch Rickey knows because Branch Rickey been in the get in the baseball game for a while at this point. He knows what it means to run a team and to do business with another team when you want players and all that kind of stuff. But it’s the lay public doesn’t know, talking about white people here. Black people, I think understands, maybe not the general public so much. But there’s a whole community of people working in black baseball that understand.
BOBBY: Yes, they–
ANDREA: [45:47]
BOBBY: –understand what’s going on. This is the beginning–
ANDREA: [45:49]
BOBBY: –of the end.
ANDREA: This is the beginning of the end, this is a huge problem. Branch Rickey knows that they can’t say anything. What they gonna do? Looks like the haters? You know, they can they can’t say anything. So he’s able to play on the emotions of the public and ride roughshod over these, over these multimillion dollar industries that had been built. The service black people, and in the process, completely denigrate them. So that now we’re not having a conversation about what happened to the base of the black Managers and the Executives anymore. Now we’re just hyper focused on the players–
BOBBY: Yup.
ALEX: Yeah.
ANDREA: –because he tore down before the public. These institutions is actual viable business entities run by capable black men and women. He took that off the table. Yeah, these black players are good, they’re real fast, they throw real far. They got strong backs. We’re not even having a conversation about the fact that okay, well, yeah, you want Jackie Robinson? Well, what about what about the the black Manager that helped develop him on the Kansas City Monarchs? Because coming out of coming out of college, he was a football star.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
ANDREA: We didn’t have that conversation [47:02].
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely a lot of, I mean, in in the last few years, I think there’s been a sort of reexamination of that era. And, you know, a sort of acceptance by Major League Baseball, the institution of the Negro Leagues as this as actual Major Leagues. And I am wondering your perspective on this kind of reexamination of the the Negro Leagues and the and the telling of the stories. I mean, you that Major League Baseball, you know, recently started including Negro League stats in their official accounting, right? Folding the that history in. Just like last month, Buck O’Neil and Bud Fowler were inducted which into the Hall of Fame, which brokered like a 15-year streak of no Negro League players being inducted, which is striking to me. But I’m wondering kind of what your take is on this critical reexamination these retelling of these stories. And, and I guess what it means to actually effectively tell these stories without diminishing the, you know, the ability of the Negro Leagues to like stand alone and be like, its own thing that doesn’t need the approval of Major League Baseball.
ANDREA: Right. And I think I think that’s the conflict, right? Is like, how do we, you know, Major League Baseball says they’re elevating the status. Uhm, I know, people took, a lot of people took issue with that, you know, this the actual term of elevating as if they were beneath before. Uhm, and I I agree, we know that, that they were, you know, they were always operating on a Major League level. I do think it’s important though, because, again, if we just talk, go back and talk about how integration happened or desegregation happened. It was absolutely because of the fact that Branch Rickey did not see the Negro Leagues as operating on the same level of the Major Leagues, right? So now this necessitates a full retelling of a story. If we are now saying Major League Baseball is now saying that no, they are the same. Now we’re talking about Branch Rickey stealing from teams that were just like his. He stealing from, you know, the the North Eagles that turned around and the next year won the World Series. The same level of World Series as the white teams are playing and winning. So I I think this quote unquote, “elevation”, I do not like the word either, but I think it is important. But yeah, we can’t just wrap that in to to to the stats in the history as if it was always saying, this is where Major League Baseball is going to have to take an L and get real clear about the fact that the reason it separate for so long was of their doing. Like it was–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
ANDREA: –their fault, right?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: They can just all of a sudden, now wipe out all of the years of history that just doesn’t just include the fact that black players were playing on separate fields. And that black teams are wholly separate. It’s also the racism that kept them separate. It’s also the racism that even when they said, okay, we’re gonna let y’all something, let somebody [50:25]. Only let a small handful of people in, that kept this quota system for so long. That still really never valued black athletes. Like I think if we go back over the history of Major League Baseball, and I’m talking about even like post Negro Leagues. Like the, the black stars that we have, the black players that we see doing really well in this space are doing it in spite of.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ANDREA: The issues have never really dissipated. It’s the same structure for the same reason that you said, like owners are still doing the same stuff, all of it’s the same. We’re seeing stars that are becoming stars, in spite of. That are really to, to use an overused word magical, right? They are magical. When we talk about Jack Robinson, we’re talking about somebody who was magical. There’s a reason we don’t talk about Johnny Wright, who was on the Montreal Royals with him. We’re talking about people that are able to look this stuff dead in the face and say, you know what, I’m that committed to this, I’m going to make it happen anyway. Major League Baseball needs to acknowledge all of that, they need to acknowledge all of that. I mean, it to me, it’s like, you know, when we’re talking, if all of a sudden, Major League Baseball was like, we’re not gonna have an American League in the National League anymore, it’s gonna be one big league. But then we started look, if we were still looking at stats from you know, last season, we still got to keep it separate, for the sake that at that point, it was still separate. Everybody thought it was okay to keep it separate thing. Keep it separate. Tell us why you changed your mind or why you at one point thought it was cool to keep it separate. But let’s keep it separate, then we talked about the new stuff going forward, we’re not just gonna rope it all in together now.
BOBBY: I think that MLB obviously did not do that. When they when they–
ANDREA: Right, no.
BOBBY: –their press release with the the elevation language, but also just generally speaking. Like, they they are not as most multi billion-dollar industries or companies or entities or whatever you want to call it Major League Baseball. As most are not, they’re not like well-equipped to have self-reflection, you know. Like the capital side doesn’t usually reflect on its actions very well, especially that far in the past. But I I do think that there is, there’s still potential like going forward, you know. Like, the way that you you know, you brought up the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. I just think that like, it’s, it’s wild to me that it does take that extra effort to learn what that is or to know what that is. But everybody knows what Cooperstown is. But–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –like, I didn’t start hearing about that until I was like a fully formed adult. And I’ve been a baseball fan my whole life. And now that that is, of course, because of my limited worldly view. And my limited experience, and I should have been looking–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –more for that history sooner. But it’s not like MLB is going out of their way to make that, that history, which is just as rich. Separate for a reason of their action as you’re laying out. But but just as interesting to learn about and just as informative to the history of baseball. It’s not like they’re going out of their way to make that, you know, front and center. [53:28] now last year, it was a little bit more front and center because of the centennial. But–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –it it did sort of feel like they were using that as like a box to check to me. Do you agree?
ANDREA: Oh sure. Oh, a 100%. I mean, you got the centennial, then you got everything that’s happening in the country, you know, with with post George Floyd. I mean, all of that, again, none of these things are ever isolated, right? Like everything, every decision that is made, even if you’re in the Baseball bubble is still impacted by what is happening in society at large. So yeah, there’s a lot of scrambling and we saw this across industries. This is not a sport or a Baseball specific thing. The issue is that well, who’s in the office? Who’s who’s who’s who’s in that league office that can be like, oh, I don’t know if this is a good idea. Or, actually let me help you refine this release a little bit. Let’s make sure that we’re actually going about this in the right way. You know, I’ve said, you know, even in in in the work that I’ve done in country music. I I don’t feel some kind of way a little bit because she just got here, but welcome. I’m glad you’re finally here. I mean, I’ve been here all along. So yeah, be a little salty, but it’s fine. We all got to get here at some point. But you got to be real careful now to make sure you actually know what you’re doing going forward. And you have to make sure that you have the right people around who have always gotten it to help lead you in the right direction. And again, this is where we have to go back to what happened when the Negro Leagues fell apart. How would things be different? Put another way, how would things be different if we had whole teams, or even leads folded into the Major League Baseball system? And so now we have a bunch of black Executives running around, obviously, those people who would have been there then, but the next generation who would have followed them. They don’t want to we wouldn’t have all these conversations about what people are really capable of this? I don’t know, I don’t have the brains, we would have seen it. And I’m not justifying that perspective at all. But it’s a very real thing, when white people get so caught up in on the systemic level of saying, Well, we haven’t seen it, so we don’t know if it’s possible. Well, you haven’t seen because you’re letting my hand to do it.
BOBBY: Yeah, they completely uprooted it, as opposed to letting these sort of like Executive trees grow.
ANDREA: Yeah.
BOBBY: And now you can basically point back down to bring it back to Branch Rickey. But you can point back to the Executive tree of like the succession of that type of model of Executive.
ANDREA: I mean–
BOBBY: Every other type was kind of cut off from that point moving forward.
ANDREA: I mean, I’m a 100% go to go back to Branch Rickey every single time. Because Major League Baseball was in prime position, in prime–but Major League Baseball, I’d have to look like this. Does fours actually follow Major League Baseball’s lead? Major League Baseball did not have to look like this. Everything was done so intentionally. And that’s why it looks like this. You had a fully separate self-sustained entity. I mean, how Brian was talking about uhm, he posted on Twitter. Yesterday, I think it was talking about why we don’t see black catchers. But here in major or in the Negro Leagues, every dream out of black catcher Of course, what did you think they were only playing with eight people on the field? Like what’s happening?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: It was proven. It was proven and they cut everyone off at the knees. And they did such a good job of spinning the story and making it look like this, this great benevolent thing for for black people, for society at large that we don’t even talk about that. We only talk about the players.
ALEX: Yeah, it’s it is really striking to me. How much gets gets left out of the conversation. I mean, it’s striking to me and also not surprising at all, right? Like I fully do not expect Major League Baseball to come out and have a, you know, Branch Rickey was wrong day, you know. Jackie Robinson day is much easier, because you can pat yourself on the back. And [57:34]–
BOBBY: I’m just trying to imagine Rob Manfred, Branch Rickey was wrong press conference and kind of short circuiting my brain.
ANDREA: I’ll just say, let me know [57:41]
ALEX: I’m wondering, you know, kind of as we as we move forward, what, I guess a proper telling of some of these stories looks like? Or or as, as Baseball continues to wade into its own history, and actually, you know, take some sort of interest in doing this reexamination, even if it has limits to it. You know, what does an effective telling of the stories look like? And are there other stories that you think maybe are are not getting the shine that they deserve right now? I mean, you wrote about Effa Manley, but are there other threads that you think are kind of, you know, interesting ones to be pulled that?
ANDREA: Yeah, uhm, first of all, I mean, you got to put the hand the pin in the hands of black people. Like, we’ve always told this story from the vantage of what happens, you know, what was happening in the white world of Baseball? You know, even when we talked about Jack, it’s like, okay, well, what were his white teammates thinking? And how did the white Brooklyn community like, it’s always white centric? And well, I mean, I don’t know if I have another expectation, given that the people telling the stories were always like. So the first thing is to put the hands, the pin in the hands of black people. And not just because we get a black centric story that way. But also, because I’m all about people eating. And at the end of the day, there’s money here, right? Like, when I see that, like, of all of the Jack Robinson biographies, or just Baseball history books, or just stuff in general. The vast majority of these people writing them are white. I’m not just thinking about the the, the the versions of the stories we get, I’m thinking about how many checks black people had to lose out on, right? Like, is bad enough, we had to deal with that man. But now that it’s okay, or people are willing to listen to these stories and put some money behind them. We can’t even get a piece of that, like, feel some kind of way about it. So–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: –that’s number one. Uhm, I think it’s, it’s acknowledging and this is the heart for white people. It’s acknowledging that you did get it wrong. You don’t have to have a Branch Rickey was wrong day. Because again, I mean, whether you’re talking about right or wrong, it’s gonna it’s going to depend on, you know, the perspective with which you view his career. Are we talking about his ability to turn the St. Louis Cardinals into a powerhouse club? Well, then you probably don’t think he’s wrong. So you have to acknowledge your your blind spots in this again, where it’s critical to bring people in who don’t share those blind spots with you. I mean, I think that’s the main thing is, is is his money and acknowledging that you ain’t get it right. And if you’ve gotten it wrong, all of this time, this idea that all of a sudden, overnight, you’re going to be able to get it right is like, it’s disrespectful, honestly, because I don’t trust you. I don’t know why you think all of a sudden, you know, what you’re doing, you know. Uhm, as far as other threads, I mean, there’s so many, there’s so many. Uhm, it really, if you just think about if we collapsed, Major League Baseball, and wiped out the history books, you know, the actual historical record of what happened for Major League Baseball, from the 1920s to the 1940s. And then all of the books and articles and podcasts and movies and all that other stuff that came from that we wipe that out. Think about that, what that would do, we’ve essentially done that with black Baseball, right? Like, we talked about Josh, and Sash, and of course, Jack. But they’re so like, I couldn’t even like, we’d meet three hours, and then I’d have to leave my closet because, you know, there’s, it it’s just a lot there. I think it is really intriguing, not just from the perspective, again, of what happened on the field. But what it says about us as a people. What it says about our society, all of these threads, you know. End up end up illuminating some aspect of how we have done things, and how we’ve gotten the wrong lessons to be learned. So there’s, that’s not that’s a non answer, answer. And I hate when people do that to me, but that’s what I got for it, because there’s a lot.
BOBBY: Quite all right, there’s so much there’s, I mean, there’s, of course, as you mentioned, there’s like the community aspect of it, which is so interesting to pull on, given where baseball is now. And given the, I I don’t even know the the the industrialization of Baseball now, so to speak, for lack of a better term. But then also, there is so much also on the field with the way that the, the the way that like picking off individual players from the Negro Leagues–
ANDREA: Yeah.
BOBBY: –held out a certain type of Baseball. Which like, you know–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –people like Bob Kendrick have done yeoman’s work and keeping them alive. Like the the way–
ANDREA: Right.
BOBBY: –that how different the Negro Leagues looked, versus what MLB ended up forcing certain Negro League players to play like and–
ANDREA: [1:02:45]
BOBBY: –how the complaints that we have about Baseball are in many ways, stemming from the fact that we killed that type of Baseball in the–
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –30s and 40s.
ANDREA: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: There’s so many–
ANDREA: [1:02:56]
BOBBY: –threads, we can talk about this forever.
ANDREA: Yeah, I mean, even if we talk about, you know why I think, I think it is generally accepted that, you know, Jack wasn’t the best player in in black Baseball when he was when he was brought in when he was signed by Branch. Uhm, I think most people understood that he really wanted him the best on his team.
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ANDREA: Why don’t we talk about why he was chosen?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: Not just that, oh, maybe it should have been Satchel Paige, or oh, maybe it should have been Josh Gibson. But why was it, Jackie Robinson? What did that mean? Why didn’t Branch savvy as he is again, bringing all the context, no kind of guy he is. Why did he choose this guy? Like those conversations say a lot, again, if we’re looking at Baseball as a mirror of society. And why things still look the way they look, not just in baseball, but in society at large. That right there reveals so much. You know, here’s a guy who’s new to the Negro Leagues. He’s been on monitor for like nine months. He is he is not married to it. He is not, you know, as invested in it as someone like a Satchel Paige. You know, I I can imagine that a Satchel Paige gets called in by Branch Rickey. And it’s like, okay, here’s what you’re gonna have to, been call you it didn’t work the slot and spikes first. I mean, he was a pitcher, so that wouldn’t happen. But you know what I’m saying? Like just generally laying setting him up for the torture like Jack or Satchel Paige is like, why would I do this again? You know, I’m I’m going out on barnstorming tours on a plane.
BOBBY: Yep.
ANDREA: Like I’m chartering a private jet. Like I don’t have to deal with this. I have to deal with this. Jack is in a different position. He’s in a different position. He needs this opportunity. He’s new to Baseball but he needed Baseball because that was the only way for him to play professional sport. Football is still segregated as time. Again, he doesn’t have that connection with the Negro Leagues, which is why he probably feels comfortable. Airing out all the dirty laundry in this Ebony magazine spread in 1948. That was not even fully the fall of the Negro League. This is you’re mad at Jim Crow. But okay, I feel you.
BOBBY: Yeah.
ANDREA: But he’s chosen, because he will go along with these things. And this is not a knock against Jack. I mean, this is an incredible man, we do him a disservice every year, when we only take this snapshot of 1947. And don’t talk about the full breath of his career and his life. There’s a reason he was chosen. And if we talk about that, we can look around us all through societies, okay, why was that person chosen? And why even when we got the quote unquote “black go–“? Well, when we got the black representation, why don’t these really change that much? All of these things are critical to discuss.
BOBBY: Yeah, I completely agree. And I would love to hear you discuss them in many books slash podcast slash projects in the future and I think that a lot of our listeners will if they have not already read Baseball’s Leading Lady they would love to check it out. So we will put the link to where anybody can find that in description. Andrea, what what are you working on? Anything that you can tell us about in the future?
ANDREA: I mean, nothing that’s been announced yet. So publishing, publishing loves to to force you to keep secrets it’s unfortunate. Uhm, so yeah, there’s nothing that I can say right now but I am working. As I mentioned at the top of this thing, I feel feel a lot better about where I am in terms of of of my work and where to best expend my energy and time when I’m working on different things. So, so yeah, mare soon.
ALEX: We are, we are waiting with bated breath for that for sure. Before we let you go, where, where can people find you? Where can people find your work?
ANDREA: Uhm, I am @AndreaWillWrite on Twitter. The best place to find me, even though I should not be there. I’m trying to live low. But I am there. My DMs always stay open. Uhm, which kind of terribly bitten me in the butt yet, we’ll see how 2020 [1:07:10]. But yes, that’s where you can find me.
ALEX: Andrea, thank you so much.
ANDREA: Thank you guys so much for having me.
[1:07:15]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: Okay, thank you to Andrea Williams. The link to find her work her book, or Twitter. All of that is in description. There are so many different threads that we could have pulled and continued to have conversations about we’ll have to have Andrea on again in the future, Alex.
ALEX: Yeah, there’s definitely far more ground to cover in, you know, in this reexamination of the Negro Leagues, and it’s long, complicated relationship with Major League Baseball. So we’re eternally grateful to Andrea for coming on. And, and continuing that conversation with us. She’s she’s really putting in work in telling these stories. And we will, we will link down to some of the articles that she’s written about Jackie Robinson and Branch Rickey. And in the Negro Leagues, and Effa Manley, in the description, we highly recommend you go and check this out.
BOBBY: And if you’re interested in more, and you’re like me, and you didn’t know a lot of this history, or you didn’t grow up with a lot of this history. Great starting point would be of course, this Effa Manley book by Andrea, Shakeia Taylor, Effa Manley piece, which won, well deserved awards last year, which we can link to in the description as well. And then if you want to dive in on the podcast, Bob Kendrick, who is the President of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. He does a podcast in partnership with Sirius XM called Black Diamonds, where he tells a lot of these stories out loud. And in many ways, I think that that is the best way to, to hear a lot of these stories. Because you can you can tell if you’ve heard Bob talk anywhere. And if you haven’t, I’m jealous, because you get to hear him for the first time tell a lot of these stories, and he’s hilarious. And he just is like an Encyclopedia of knowledge of the Negro Leagues. So I would, I would highly recommend that. And, and if you live near Kansas City, go to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum because I’ve been to Kansas City twice, and I’ve never made it there. And it’s one of my larger baseball life regrets at the moment.
ALEX: You mentioned Shakeia, and I also just wanted to shout out her new monthly interview series that she is doing with with Sabre, it’s called Ballpark Figures. It debuts next month, she’s gonna be talking to just various people from around the game inside Major League Baseball, but I think more broadly outside that. She is going to be talking with with the Head Coach of the Southern University baseball program. In debut session, which which comes out, which is on February 3rd, it’s a it’s a live series and I believe that it’s free to to watch. So I would highly encourage anyone who who is interested in Shakeia’s work, I likes her work. I certainly do. You certainly do. To check that out [1:10:04]–
BOBBY: What if I just came out and I was like, no Shakeia’s work is actually bad. We’ve showcased it so many times on this podcast because we actually dislike it. No, Shakeia is the best, absolute best. Yeah, thank you everybody for listening. We will talk to you next wee.
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya.
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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