With the imminent expiration of Major League Baseball’s Collective Bargaining Agreement, Alex and Bobby are taking some time to break down key concepts that will be on the table in the coming weeks and months and examine what’s at stake for each side.
This week, they look at salary arbitration, tracing its roots back to the end of the reserve clause and outlining its occasionally-squishy boundaries. They talk with former reliever Jerry Blevins about his personal experience with the arbitration process and how players navigate the system. They also bring on Kevin Goldstein, current FanGraphs writer and former Houston Astros executive, to demystify the financial approach that organizations take to arbitration and the role that player evaluation has in it.
Follow Jerry Blevins on Twitter @jerryblevins
Follow Kevin Goldstein on Twitter @Kevin_Goldstein
Songs featured in this episode:
Joni Mitchell — “Both Sides Now” • The Beatles — “Come Together” • Stealers Wheel — “Stuck In The Middle With You” • Booker T & the M.G.’s — “Green Onions”
Episode Transcript
[INTRO MUSIC]
Tell us a little bit about what you saw and and and being able to relay that message to Cora when you watch Kimbrel pitching and kind of help out so he wasn’t Tipping his Pitches. So Tipping Pitches, we hear about it all the time. People are home on the stand, what Tipping Pitches it’s all about. It’s amazing. That’s remarkable.
BOBBY; Alex, we got some big news about a big signing this past week in Major League Baseball. Getting it in right under the wire right ahead of the expiration of the CBA. Did you see this news? Across the timeline?
ALEX: It’s ahh it’s possible, it’s possible though I I’m not actually sure if this is a this is a joke. Intro and if you’re gonna talk about like a–
BOBBY: Phillies superstar closer Hector Neris–
ALEX: Okay, that, uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –agreed to a two years $17 million deal with the Houston Astros.
ALEX: Nice.
BOBBY: And we’re here to break it down for you. You know, we had this whole big salary arbitration, special episode planned. We pre banked two interviews, but guess what, we scrapped them? Time to do an hour on Hector Neris, are you prepared?
ALEX: Yeah I am ready I mean the Phillies are ahh in might paying you to hear this but they are on my shortlist right now of potential teams that I might move to.
BOBBY: Wait.
ALEX: They’ve been–
BOBBY: The joke is over, okay. The joke is over. screeching halt to the intro bit. What?
ALEX: Look Bobby I know it’s it’s tough to hear and my my loyalties still lie strong with the Mets but it’s I have an obligation to not only to myself but to the market to other fans out there to get myself the best possible offer. Even if that means–
BOBBY: Ohh.
ALEX: –going back to the Mets and saying I’m–
BOBBY: Wow.
ALEX: –using it as a leverage.
BOBBY: I have never seen such unprofessional behavior from a podcast co hosts. I guess words and promises don’t mean anything anymore.
ALEX: It’s already working, you guys have already got Mark Canha because I’ve already got Starling Marte. I kept saying. I’m not saying I am nothing–
BOBBY: We’re just taking the A’s, we’re just taking the A’s.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: And some people on Twitter today if you get deep enough in Mets Twitter, I saw some people saying because it’s been rumored that perhaps the Mets are fielding calls on one Jeff McNeil that perhaps they should trade him to the A’s in exchange for, hold on wait Alex take a deep breath. Matt Chapman and Chris Bassitt.
ALEX: Ohh, both of those players.
BOBBY: Because Jeff McNeil is so much better than Matt Chapman, right? Especially when you need a third baseman, right? Jeff McNeil is the better third baseman of those two.
ALEX: Yes.
BOBBY: So you have to throw Chris Bassitt into the deal. Just to kind of even up the playing field.
ALEX: Yeah, no, it took me a second but I’m actually starting to wrap my head around it now.
BOBBY: What when you consider the fact that the Mets traded Amed Rosario and Andres Gimenez for Francisco Lindor and Carlos Carrasco, maybe that opinion starts to make a little bit of sense.
ALEX: Well, I’m uhh I’m looking huh no see I I actually no matter how good Jeff McNeil is unfortunately he’s he is into his RV years at this point, so–
BOBBY: Ohh.
ALEX: –I don’t think that move makes much sense–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –for for the A’s at this moment. So I appreci–I appreciate Mets Twitter for for broaching that idea.
BOBBY: More years of team control are required–
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: –to make that to make that deal work.
ALEX: Yeah, absolutely.
BOBBY: Speaking of arbitration, Alex, we have a special episode teed up for our listeners. We’re going to talk to Jerry Blevins and Kevin Goldstein. Jerry Blevins has been a guest on this podcast before. Former Pitcher for the Oakland the after mentioned Oakland Athletics and the after mentioned New York Mets as well as the Washington Nationals and some other teams along the way. Ahh Kevin Goldstein, current writer at FanGraphs, former Executive with multiple different titles that he will list for us because it’s hard to keep track of them. At the Houston Astros, also after mentioned. We’re gonna talk about arbitration, salary arbitration, what it is? What it means for labor relations? Why it’s such a big topic of conversation every year during the offseason, and try to deceive demystify some of the history of it, but also try to make sense of what it might look like in the future. Uhm so those were great conversations, I’m really excited for everybody to hear them. Ahh but before we do all of that, I am Bobby Wagner.
ALEX: I am Alex Bazeley
BOBBY: And you are listening to Tipping Pitches.
[4:33]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: Do you want to talk about the Wander Franco deal? Do you even want to wade into that pool of takes?
ALEX: I don’t even know what there is to say this especially because like I feel like we spent what 10-15 minutes on this about a week ago when–
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: –the deal had just broken and we and we knew scant details. And so we prognosticated about about what it might mean for Wander Franco and then the deal came to fruition. So you know, if you we can we can happily spend 15 more minutes saying, Yep, all all the things we said last week. still still still standing, still true. Wander Franco deserves far more than he’s, than he’s gonna be getting over the next 11 years?
BOBBY: Yes, and I think that when you say something like that there’s a whole host of people, especially when you know, he got a lot of total value to the contract, right? It’s very long, but it’s more total value than someone like Ozzie Albies, or Ronald Acuna Jr. signed for, I think they were like 70 million and 100 million respectively. And nowhere, I don’t want to suggest that he shouldn’t have signed it, he didn’t consider the implications of signing such a long term deal. He didn’t weigh the benefits and downsides of signing a deal. All of that is, of course true, he definitely dealt of those things. I just, it’s a little bit hard to watch a player be leveraged into signing a contract like that and not be able to cash in on their value. And less, they sign away some high end earning potential very early into their career. Like I lament the system, I don’t really blame the player for making the choice within a system. Because every reason that you can say it was good for him to sign this deal is a symptom of, of a slightly broken system or a very broken system, depending on how much you care about how much younger players are earning. Because, yes, he could get injured in the next year, he could have a career ending injury, and then his total career earnings would be under $3 million. Yes, he could fall off a cliff in the next three years, even though that’s definitely not going to happen. And he could never get that big free agency deal that we’re alluding to, or we joked about last week, $600 million. That is all true, but the fact that the system is currently set up to prevent him from ever reaching that payday until he has, you know, five, six years of opportunity to end his career with an injury means that it’s a bad system. Because he’s a great player who has to bob and weave through six years of unknowns before he ever gets to get rewarded, like the great player that he is. And if you don’t, if you can’t see that, and you can’t agree, agree with that, I’m kind of surprised that you’re listening to this podcast.
ALEX: Yeah, and and obviously, the the Rays don’t have him for his whole career, he’ll reach free agency at ahh at the right age of of 32, which as we know, is when the market typically rewards Baseball players for their service ahh by handing out large like the contracts. I mean, let’s not forget, there’s no guarantee the Rays even happen for the for the for the length of this contract–
BOBBY: It’s very unlikely that they do.
ALEX: So well, there there are still plenty of unknowns here. And like you said, I, you know, I think neither of us begrudges a player for cashing it. Right? I mean, this is life changing money at that. At the end of the day, he’s the only one who who knows what, what is really at stake here, him and maybe his agent. And so I think you said it best when he’s really just looking at the market, looking at what the system is, is offering to him at this moment and doing what’s best for him. And so, you know, congrats to to Wander Franco, who has literally already done more in his life than I I ever will. Unless, unless the powers that be decided to go to arbitration with us, or extend us extend us a decade’s long contract. I don’t foresee that happening.
BOBBY: It’s a very complicated thing to discuss, right? Because on it on a case by case basis, there’s never a a player is not making a wrong decision when he secures generational wealth for his family. And then he didn’t come from that kind of money, right? But, you know, as a symptom of these, the current structure of the system, it’s it’s pretty clear to me that this these kinds of deals, these buying out the arbitration years, and securing more of the kept free agency years are in the long run, just just bad for the players side of things. Like that’s how you keep the largest salaries down, which keeps the overall salary expenditure down, which means that the Owners profit is just going higher. So–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –this ended this kind of thing, this forcing players to wait this long to get to arbitration than forcing players to wait three more years after that to get to salary arbitration to get to free agency is something that the players needs to address.
ALEX: Yeah, and this is something that we will talk to Kevin about later in this episode, why a player like Franco would take an offer like this, why the Rays would be interested in buying his arbitration years. There’s a lot there, there’s a lot to unpack. But uhh, but it really requires us going back to square one, I think. It should be a–
BOBBY: Transition alert, transition alert.
ALEX: Do we talk about salary arbitration, Bobby?
BOBBY: Yes, we should. So we’ve been alluding to this for a while now, uhm on the podcast that we wanted to do an episode, basically, exclusively devoted to the concept of salary arbitration and how it plays out in the Baseball marketplace. So what salary arbitration is Alex is for player X, who gets called up. Let’s call him Alex Bazeley, Alex Bazeley gets called up to Major League Baseball. Congratulations, Alex Bazeley, you’ve made it to Major League Baseball, you’re the Oakland Athletics, top prospect. You’re living your lifelong dream. Here you go, what position you want to play, second base?
ALEX: Su–ahh, sure yeah.
BOBBY: Second base top top prospects, you just pushed to Jed Lowrie into an early retirement, congratulations.
ALEX: I’ll just go back to the Mets probably.
BOBBY: Wow, then that actually isn’t early retirement. Uhm okay, so Alex Bazeley gets called up, year one, he makes the league minimum, year two, he makes the league minimum year three, he makes the league minimum that is called pre arbitration years. Now–
ALEX: This is and this is assuming my service time ahh–
BOBBY: Is not likely manipulated.
ALEX: –it’s not being manipulated.
BOBBY: Right. Uhm–
ALEX: Or put, or I guess, potentially is being manipulated. If I was on my rookie contract for three years.
BOBBY: Yes, so so you get the league minimum, the team can choose to pay you as little as they want to basically down to the league minimum for the first three years you don’t you can’t negotiate for that at all, when you’re pre arbitration. Uhm they can also choose to pay you slightly more some teams with their biggest superstars with the Alex Bazeley’s of the world might give them a couple extra $10,000 here, $50,000, maybe even $100,000, if you’re like if you really wanna reach for some goodwill with the player and their agent. Now, after Alex has played three years in Major League Baseball, he then is now eligible for arbitration, he is arbitration eligible. And what salary arbitration is, is the team side, the player side, they’re trying to come to an agreement, each of them submits a salary number to a neutral arbiter, and says this is what I think Alex Bazeley should get paid. And then you present a case to that neutral arbiter. And it’s actually a panel of three of them. And they choose which side made the better case, and which salary number, that person is going to get paid. Now, a lot of teams like to avoid arbitration by settling ahead of that date. So teams are allowed to settle on a salary number with the player and their courage to settle on the salary number with the player ahead of time, but it doesn’t always happen that way. Jerry Blevins, who we’re going to talk to in just a bit, he went to salary arbitration with the Washington Nationals, he won. We’ll talk a little bit more about that when we have Jerry on. But the concept of salary arbitration, and this is this is where I want you to give a little bit of a brief history for the listeners, Alex, is it was a way for both sides to have more of an input on what younger players are making. And it was a stepping stone to free agency. So salary arbitration was agreed to between the players and the owners before free agency even existed. It was like a way for players to have slightly more agency to advocate on behalf of themselves.
ALEX: Right, exactly. And it was, as you know, as we’ll get into the, it was the owners thought that it was a way to avoid free agency, right? It was a bargaining chip that they gave up, but a lesser of two evils. Ahh you might, you might call it.
BOBBY: Does it does it kind of remind you of giving Minor Leaguers housing, so that they don’t have to pay them more? I don’t know, maybe.
ALEX: Ouch. March 1972. A year–
BOBBY: Curt flood.
ALEX: Curt flood. Heard of him?
BOBBY: I have heard of him.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: I heard of him that Cooperstown.
ALEX: Right, exactly. Yeah, he challenges the reserve clause before the Supreme Court. Unsuccessfully, unsuccessfully. I might add, although his case was a was a really huge part in bringing a sort of national consciousness to the idea of the reserve clause, right? Which is the which is the rule that had been in effect since literally since since baseball’s inception of the business, right? Going all the way back to the late 1800s that teams have effective control over a player’s ahh players time at them for perpetuity, right? You get to unilaterally extend one year contracts to them over a period of time. And as we’ve talked about Curt Flood was obviously quite opposed to this Curt Flood and and many other players who said, “Well I’m, you can’t just trade me and and and employ me to to your will, I need to have some leverage in this”. So he unsuccessfully challenges the the reserve clause. I think my favorite bit about that story is one of the Supreme Court justices had to recuse themselves from the case, because he actually, he owned stock in An–Anheuser-Busch, who uhh, who owned the St. Louis Cardinals there. So things are very good with our political system ahh back in the back of the 20th century.
BOBBY: I hear that they’ve gotten a lot better, actually.
ALEX: Yeah, I think so I think so too. I think they’re on the up and up now.
BOBBY: MLB is very divorced from Congress. They don’t lobby them. There’s no nothing going on there.
ALEX: No, yeah. Just a few weeks later, the the players actually strike for the first time in April. And it only lasts 13 days. But it’s it’s huge for them. And the strike is initially over pension funds. The ahh there was a three year pension contract that had expired, and the players were demanding that the owners pay out more into their pension funds. And so the the strike includes after 13 days, the players win not only $500,000 into their fund, but the owners also offer up salary arbitration. As I mentioned before, as a kind of bargaining chip to say, well, we need to keep player salaries from going up, if players hit free agency, right? If they hit an open market, that’s going to drive salaries way up. So the the best thing that we can do is at least try and get some some arbitrator in here to find the middle ground, right? That players don’t have all of the leverage. Salary arbitration is is inducted in at at this time, it’s only one arbitrator ahh on the panel. And players really don’t want to go to arbitration players who go to arbitration are are somewhat blackballed. In the league, they’re looked down upon by owners. Almost immediately, the Owners realize how much they fucked up by introducing salary arbitration, because they realize this also is going to drive player salaries up. Because the all or nothing system that we’ve talked about, right? The the arbiter has to choose between the players number or the team’s number, they can’t pick a number in the middle. Which means–
BOBBY: So if the player, yes submits $100 million dollars and the team submits $100, the arbiter has to decide, “Okay, which one is closer to reality?”
ALEX: Right, and it forces the team to negotiate in something approaching good faith. right? It forces them to come to the table with a a somewhat reasonable number. The Owners would spend effectively the next quarter of a century trying to rollback salary arbitration. Ahh in December 1975, free agency does come about, thanks to Andy Messersmith. And Dave McNally, who successfully challenged the reserve clause. My favorite part about this story is that the Owners fired the arbitrator who ruled in their favor the independent arbitrator immediately after he ruled in favor of Messersmith and McNa–McNally, they said, “Okay, Peter Seitz, you’re, you’re out of here”.
BOBBY: The owners treat the arbitrators like ahh, like precedents treat Attorney Generals.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
BOBBY: It’s like, what is this supposed to be [18:20]–
ALEX: [18:20], exactly. So by 1980, we’re trying to get rid of arbitration, because again, this is driving salaries up the next few decades, see the sides battling back and forth over arbitration. And this is actually one of the issues at the heart of the the 94 strike. In 1995, the the two sides agreed to expand the arbitration panel to three arbitrators instead of one. This becomes universal in 2000. And arbitration has largely remained the same since. Now, the you know, kind of what what has evolved over the years is a lot of the eligibility of what the arbitrators are allowed to take into account when it comes to players ahh and and how much they should be making. And there’s a really interesting kind of list of what what is admissible in these arguments and isn’t admissible in these arguments. Can you, can you give us a little insight into what’s allowed to be considered?
BOBBY: Yeah, so now that we talked about the concept of it, and it’s literally this happens on like one day. You go to the arbitration hearing, you give your hearing, they give their ruling. Uhm I don’t know if the ruling comes that day, I doubt it. Ahh I think they have to deliberate after that. But this this is like a, a one hour sesh, where you lay it all out on the table, literally. Uhm so I’m looking at the MLB basic agreement, the collective bargaining agreement. This is uhm on page 21, under the subsection of arbitration, it is criteria. The criteria will be the quality of the players contributions to his club during the past season, including but not limited to his overall performance, special qualities of leadership and public appeal, the length and consistency of his career contribution, the record of the players past compensation, comparative baseball salaries, that’s a very important one, as Jerry will talk about. Ahh The existence of any physical or mental defects on the part of the player, and the recent–
ALEX: How is that mean?
BOBBY: –and the recent performance record of the club, including but not limited to its league standing, and attendance as an indication of public acceptance. So those are all very squishy ideas, right? So those are like, you can talk about how well the player performed on the field. You can talk about how much of a leader in the clubhouse the player was. You can talk about the physical or mental defect. So if the player is injured, or injury prone, or mental defects is a really bad way of phrasing it, this should not make it into a legal document. But if the player has a bad attitude towards his teammates, that can affect his salary arbitration. And obviously, all of those things are very subjective, which is why arbitration is a very flawed system, as we will talk more about, especially with Kevin. Uhm they do outline explicitly what you cannot bring to the table flat, out on falling under those categories. Like what what examples from those categories, you’re not allowed. So evidence of the following shall not be admissible, the financial position of the player and the club. So if the player comes from if the player is Bill Gates’ son, it doesn’t matter, that you you can’t rule against the player just because he has generational wealth of $100 billion.
ALEX: They gotta change that one. If Bill Gates’ son gets into professional Baseball.
BOBBY: Yeah, maybe he should not win the salary arbitration case. Uhm–
ALEX: All of a sudden we’re pro [21:42]–
BOBBY: Well, when the player has more money than the owner, I feel like the balance of power swings. Uhm, and also like, if the club is underwater, it doesn’t matter. Like if the club is supposedly has no money, which they claim all the time, then it doesn’t matter. That’s not admissible, which is cool, that’s a good agreement.
ALEX: Uhm.
BOBBY: Press comments, testimonials are similar material bearing on the performance of either the player or the club, except that recognised annual player awards for playing excellence shall not be excluded. So what that means is, if a teammate comes out and says, I love this guy, I love playing with him, he’s the best player I’ve ever played with. He’s the best ball baseball player ever. That’s not admissible. But if a player wins MVP, that is admissible. Offers made by either player the club prior to arbitration, that is like the period where they’re trying to agree on that salary number beforehand, those all go out the door, they are in admissible evidence, the cost of the parties of the Representatives, Attorneys, etc., salaries in other sports or occupations. And then there’s this whole section about admissible statistics, which Jerry will talk about a little bit more later and so so Kevin, I believe. Uhm admissible statistics are only from publicly available statistics. So, for purposes as for purposes of this provision, publicly available statistics shall include data available through subscription only websites, like baseball prospectus. Statistics and data generated through the use of performance technology, wearable technology, or Statcast, whether publicly available or not, shall not be admissible. So that is a very important little caveat there. You can’t use Statcast statistics, you can’t use basically any advanced analytics that factor in wearable trackable data. And that has caused some frustration, I think, particularly from the team side, in the last, really from both sides. Uhm you’ve heard guys like Joey Gallo talked about talk about being undervalued, based on the old conventions of what it means to be a good hitter, high, high, high batting average, you know, that kind of thing, low strikeout numbers, etc. But but also teams are evaluating guys basically only on wearable trackable data now, like the rest, I mean, they they use other statistics, but the rest of it is kind of nose. Uhm so it’s interesting that that is not admissible. I think that causes a lot of frustration and consternation on both sides. So Alex, now that we understand what salary arbitration is, I believe that it is time to get to our conversations with our distinguished guests. Is there anything else that you want to present the listeners before that?
ALEX: Yeah, just a couple more things real quick, and then we should get to that get to those conversations. Uhm the arbitrators get a list of every Major League players salary at the moment, right? And as you as you mentioned, this is something that they’ll they’ll reference and we’ll talk about this with Jerry on on how that gets referenced. But the arbitrators can look at every other player’s salary, and there’s a there’s kind of a bracket in which they’re they’re comparing the the player up for salary arbitration to other similar players. Ahh and then, and then the last important note is that you can’t take into account the competitive balance tax. That’s a team can’t, can’t say, “We submitted X number because we’re trying to stay under, you know, 220 million or whatever it is, that’s, that’s out the door, is this is a conversation that’s supposed to exist in a vacuum, right?
BOBBY: Uh-hmm.
ALEX: You can’t actually look at the, the financial circumstances of either the player or the team, which in, in theory is a is a good thing. So that’s really it, as you mentioned, this is uhh, this is the kind of thing that, you know, the the negotiations unfold slowly over the course of the offseason. And then in February, they just bang them out. One by one. There’s like a period of two weeks, where the players just come in and sit down with a representation across the table from Lawyers, from the team, from the league. And they duke it out and they can get pretty nasty as we will, as we will hear very shortly.
BOBBY: Without further ado, let’s go to our conversation with Jerry Blevins first, and then Kevin Goldstein second.
[25:51]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: All right, we are once again joined by Jerry Blevins, who said it’s a rare occurrence to be asked to come on a podcast and talk about the minutiae of the CBA and the business side of the Baseball but we are rare birds here at Tipping Pitches. Jerry, thank you for joining us once again sir.
JERRY: That is ahh that is just the tip of the iceberg on on what you guys are bringing to the table with Tipping Pitches you are you are a rare birds in many aspects. And I love every bit of it. So yeah, thanks for having me on guys, I’m excited.
ALEX: As as listeners will know, we ahh this this whole episodes about arbitration and we really wanted to talk to someone who has actually been in the room, right, for these negotiations. Uhm and you know, the last time we talked off air the end of the podcast you were you left us with some with some cliffhangers that you noted you may not remember now, but we don’t we will make you remember those I’m sure we’ll get we’ll get heated as we [26:58] this conversation–
JERRY: I was gonna say, you probably you probably buttered me up. And we’re super friendly. And I will reveal a little bit too much maybe, so I’m glad it was off the air.
BOBBY: Well, we were just in in discussing, you know, like the upcoming CBA fight. Because last time we had you on we did sort of a ahh a complete game. And we asked you a bunch of questions, we had to run through them. And I I believe a couple of those questions were about labor and the upcoming CBA. And we just you know, we started shooting the shit about CBA things that happen to players that make them so frustrated. And one of those things is arbitration or just just concepts that like that average fan doesn’t really have to think about but are sort of the, like I said, the minutiae of uhm the minutiae of the business side of Baseball. Uhm Jerry, when did you first start have to having to think about arbitration? And then how does your opinion sort of form on it as you got into the league, you’re obviously not your pre arb. So you’re not worrying too much about it, because you want to establish yourself in the league and make sure you even get to arb. Uhm you know, as as a reliever in this game, who teams started churning through them very quickly. So you’re not thinking about it right away, maybe. But when you start to understand what arb is and how it’s going to affect you, as an individual. Uhm take us through that journey.
JERRY: Yeah, so ahh I came up with the Oakland A’s. Ahh my first stint in the big leagues, I was there for about seven seasons. Ahh and so I never really thought about it, like you said, establish myself. And then eventually after I got those two years of service time, going into that third season, you’re like, “Okay, how much do I need to get to that, you know, to plus, you know, arbitration”. And so you start to see, when you get option down, you start to think about your time served. And and all the above, you know, service time manipulation, or just pure, you know, status. Because you go from making league minimum they give you this is how much you make for three years, this is it. And then you start to get a little bit of your market value in arbitration, where it’s you compare yourself to players that have done basically your same job and what they made in the process. So it is your finally start to have a say in how much you’re worth. And yo–and your value is based upon your performance. So it’s kind of interesting uhm from that standpoint, but that’s really when you start when you start to get to that, “Hey, am I going to make arbitration this year? Am I going to get to that point to where it’s going to be something to think about?” So that’s that’s about the normal time when, when your season, this is your platform years, what they call it the year leading into your first kind of arbitration.
BOBBY: Did you have opinions about how that was gonna play out? Like were you, were you stressed about it? Were you excited to get to it because you are starting to, you know, achieve some of that market value that you’re alluding to? What was your your thought going into it?
JERRY: Yeah, I was excited because it was the first time so at that point, you you’re leading up to a year not, you’re just trying to stick in the big leagues. And by the time you get to arbitration, you feel like you’ve either established yourself to a point to where you’re a known commodity. And you’re able to see kind of where you fit in, in the grand scheme of salary because of your performance. Like Baseball’s the ultimate meritocracy, where this is what you’re worth, because this is what your stats say you are, there’s no BS, you know, there’s a little bit of that in free agency with, you know, ticket sales and jersey sales, that kind of thing. But for the most part it is, this is how much you make, because this is what you’re worth. Ahh and especially in the arbitration process, so I was involved. So that my number one thing that I say to media members to mostly to players is find an agent that you trust. My former agent, Bobby Baird, Excel Sports, uhm is a dear friend of mine, we’re we’re still close, I went to my first you know, Bar Mitzvah with his son, Benjamin, like, it’s just we’re we’re family now. He’s been to my wedding, like all the above, I knew going in that this human being is going to have my back. And I knew he’s going to tell me the truth, every decision that he’s going to make is based off of the best decision for me. And so I got to eliminate all the like, what’s in what if ands, or buts, all that stuff, I just had to play Baseball. And that was the best thing is to find an agent that you know is going to tell you the truth, things you need to hear, things that you you may not want to hear but need to hear, ahh going into the process. So I wanted to be involved as much as I could just because I’m curious. Uhm and I also knew that even if I took a complete hands off approach, and like a lot of guys do, that my best interests are going to be at the forefront.
ALEX: You mentioned wanting to be involved in that process. And I’m curious if you can elaborate kind of on how that process unfolds, right? You played through your, your season. Arbitration is approaching, obviously, you know, you’re you’re building a case for why you should make X number based on your stats compared to other players stats. How, how involved, were were you in kind of sitting down in that in that process? And how involved do you think the average player is?
JERRY: I I would say the average player is probably just very briefly involved with just knowing what’s going on. Uhm you’ll find out, for me I wanted to know, I’m not smart enough to know the numbers of it to to divide it up. And that’s why you hire people that can do these things for you. I just don’t you know, baseball’s hard enough. And so I never wanted to have to do the numbers side of things. It’s difficult job. So I would just be like, “Hey, who who are my who are my comparative players? Who who are you comparing me to? Uhm how does it look?”. Where are we kind of generality? And then we’ll start to dive into it. And so it’s a it’s a fun perspective, to see what they’re what they’re thinking. And then also, so it’s, I don’t know how far you want to get into it. So it’s basically like two versus two, the arbitration process. Do you want to dive into?
BOBBY: Yeah.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: [33:06]
JERRY: Okay. So so it’s basically you and your agency as one. And then the Players Association is your two, two team, you know, two-player team. And then sitting across from you is the is the team that you’re going against your team, and then the commissioner’s office. And so it’s literally two vs two with three arbitration judges. And so I’m sitting here at the head of this like long table. So I’m not not the head, but I’m at the first seat. My agent is right beside me here across is the GM of the team, and their Lead Attorney is right there. And then beside me is the Players Association. And beside their team is the Commissioner’s Office. And then at the head of the table are these three arbitration judges uhm who decide one or the other. And it’s, it’s completely fascinating, but it is a two vs two, because whoever goes first you you present your side of the case, they have a rebut. And then they present and you get to rebut, and then you have a break, and then you go at it one more time. And then the judge decides, and it’s a battle for saying, you know, this is how much you’re worth, you’re terrible. And this is how much I’m great, I’m worth this and and you get to hear it out.
BOBBY: I’m the left handed Mariano Rivera. Uhh, uhh so so your case against the Nats, you submitted a figure of 2.4 million they submitted a figure of 2.2 million. Ahh I think a lot of people who don’t pay as close to arbitration might say, “Hey, why didn’t you guys meet in the middle at 2.3 million? Can you talk about sort of the decision making process any of the conversations that you’re willing to share that you had with your agent about why you wanted to fight for that extra $100,000? And why if you can suppose the Nationals wanted to fight for that extra $100,000 less?
JERRY: Yeah, so it’s pretty simple. So now it’s kind of a standard practice from all 30 teams as a called file and trial. And so there’s a date in the offseason, where if you haven’t negotiated with your team and figured out a salary, that you both have to submit numbers that would go in case you’re going to arbitration. So there’s a lot of back and forth from teams and agents up until that point saying, you know, we’re way up here, and they’re starting here. And hopefully by the time before that file and trial gets there, uhm you come up with something. But this this was, this was the case where it was simply I wasn’t a priority for the Nationals as far as the pecking order, understandably, middle reliever. Uhm and so we were up until the deadline, I think it was like a 1pm deadline, and I’m in my car like Chipotle after workout, talking to my agent. It’s like 12:30, and we haven’t heard anything from the Nationals at all leading up until that point. And so I was expecting some type of back and forth. Well, right before the deadline, they call my agent and said, This is what he’s worth. It’s 2.2 take it or leave it. And we’re like, Well, that’s it? And that was like, hung up the phone. And so my agent, it’s almost a deadline. And so we’re talking, he goes, you can take this 2.2. I go, well, you told me I’m worth at least 2.4 baseline, I was like, so it’s this is an easy, this is a win win, I’m not gonna I’m only gonna lose $200,000 or I could go above. You and so we negotiated back and forth between where we would file. And I was like, Look, I’m not trying to steal anything, but I am worth 2.4 minimum. So that’s an easy argument for us to we felt we could make. And so that’s where we filed. Uhm again, here it comes back to to having your agent, somebody that you trust, the effort and work that that my agent and the Players Association put in for me to gain that $500,000, the the percentage that my agent got, and the work that they put in is disproportionate in my favor big time. But I knew it’s a principle thing. And I’m I, I talked to so many players behind me that I was they were compared to me, and I move that bar an extra 200,000 for them. It makes all the difference in the world. And so when you’re thinking about the numbers, for me being very closely associated with our our players union, it was an easy choice for me because I know if I win, I’m helping everybody behind me. So it was it was a fun choice. Uhm it wasn’t really uhm a me versus him, it just like they didn’t, I wasn’t important on the team and I, I get it. Like you said, I know I’m not the left handed Mariano Rivera. So I have no these delusions of grandeur. I don’t think I’m better than I am. I do a little bit like every person thinks they’re better than they actually are. But you know that I mean, I’m not I have no no qualms with hearing what the team thinks of me. So I was I wanted to do the process. And just to see it through from a curiosity standpoint, and this was a this was like a win win situation for me.
BOBBY: If there was a a an arbitration process for pro labor, baseball podcasts, Alex and I would know our worth, and we would take it to arbitration, I can assure you I made the right call.
JERRY: I think you guys have a similar mentality uhm of the process ahh from following you guys on Twitter and and and your and your actual podcast. Like I I I know where you’re coming from, so we’re like minded.
ALEX: Uhm so, you were you were with the Nationals a year you you, we should say you won your arbitration case at 2.4 million played out the the the year in arbitration. And then you were traded to the Mets. And there were conversatio–there were there were reports that came out that said, hey, the Nationals weren’t elated that you had won an arbitration case. We don’t need to speculate on their emotions on that, and I won’t get you into any hot water there. Uhm but I am kind of curious, you know, arbitration is seen as kind of a, you know, of the last choice in the process, right? It’s what comes about when you can’t come to an agreement with the team.
BOBBY: When you’re in a Chipotle parking lot.
ALEX: Right, exactly.
JERRY: Yeah, where’s there no–
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: –there’s oil.
ALEX: Is the glamorous part of Baseball.
JERRY: It’s a it’s a it’s a difficult thing, a lot of players so Baseball is so weird in sports in general. As an athlete, a lot of what you do comes off of like your mental approach and having this this false sense of confidence or or just cockiness, whatever the case may be. A lot of guys don’t want any dents in that armor. They want to think that their team is 100% behind them that they believe in them. And they don’t ever want to hear anything otherwise because then it it it starts to pop that bubble that illusion that comes along that makes you think that you’re you know a gladiator and untouchable figure. All of a sudden you hear that they don’t think you’re as good as as you think you are. Or even if they don’t that was that was for me. It was easy, because I I separated performance and team and wanting to win with the business side of things. Because I knew as soon as, as soon as the season is over, that their job now is to pay me the least amount of money that they can, it’s literally their job. They don’t have to keep me happy because they think I’m a replaceable player, that doesn’t mean anything. And my job is to make sure that I maximize my ability for not just me for the players behind it, because I know I can only play this game for so long and and I had did a good job of I got pretty lucky and sustained a good career. But who knows how long you’re going to be able to play, I dedicated my life to this. And it’s worth this much money. And I want to make sure that I maximize that because everybody should be able to do that. And so it was an easy choice for me to to to be able to, you know, get a peek behind the curtains of the business, Max machinations of of Baseball and not be afraid to hear their true thoughts of me. And it didn’t affect me at all in play. It actually made me better because I, you know, it made me stronger, because I hear how terrible they think I am. I’m like, Oh, I just have to be better than that, that’s easy.
BOBBY: Well, what kind of stuff are they saying, though?
JERRY: Like, so okay, so I I I won’t get into any detail. So it first of all, the Nationals where, I love playing for the Nationals, I have so much respect for that organization. So there isn’t a personal vendetta. Uhm the our interactions were fine, it was it was nice, they they said that I am worth this, they gave plenty of reasons. And I disagreed with some of those. It was the Commissioner’s Office actually, that made the arguments that got pretty personal in a sense that were they basically, not basically they physically said, I’m just lucky to be in the big leagues like they, they use some photos from Facebook, of like some friends of mine and I together that they compared me to and just that we’re both just happy and lucky to be in the big leagues. And we should just take a check and shut, shut my little face and just be happy to be a part of Major League Baseball.
BOBBY: Ouch.
JERRY: It was like, you know, I anticipated some type of that. But listening to, you know, a a person, a fully grown adult talk a talk about me. Like that was pretty shocking, where I’m like making eye contact with this person. And we’re having this back and forth where she’s talking to the judges, but I’m like, I just want to know if this person if she could say it to my face, with–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –me actually being an emotional being right there. And she did. I was like, “Oh, wow, that’s impressive”. And it wasn’t like nothing like that. I I I suck as a human being was just like, look, this guy just not a very good baseball player. He is a dime a dozen. We could replace him with this. Look, this is a guy, here’s his average white guy on on Facebook is there’s 1000 of these guys trying to come here. And I was like–
BOBBY: So strange.
ALEX: Man.
JERRY: Yeah, it’s very strange. It had they had no, like, there was not real numbers substantiated. It was just character kind of things. And it was it–
ALEX: Yeah.
JERRY: –was it was unique. And so I was like, you know, I’m happy that the team didn’t take that approach. And they just were like, look, this is these are your numbers, you had a down year, we shouldn’t pay you, you know, whatever. Those are easy arguments to understand. But the the the Commissioner’s Office at the point got pretty personal and I was shocked by it, but also intrigued.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, you you know, there are things in in that are allowed to be on the table in the arbitration meeting and things that aren’t allowed to be on the table in the arbitration meeting. And it does seem to me, I mean, there’s some guys who come out of that somewhat beaten down, you know, saying, Wow, that was a grueling process, right? And there’s, uhh you know, that you’re allowed to kind of get into, uhh you know, physical and mental defects of of players, you know, right? Which is such a vague framing, right? Like, what do you how–
JERRY: Hmm.
ALEX: –do you define what fits into that versus what, you know, what this player says into the media, or something like that? I mean–
JERRY: How–
ALEX: –did you–
JERRY: –how far how far do you allow that to go on like as a as an–
ALEX: Right.
JERRY: –entity? Like, where do you draw the line from an ethical standpoint, it’s interesting. Sometimes lines get crossed and some guys lines or different varying points. Like you said, you don’t know I didn’t take anything personal except for some of the not even in a bad way. I was like, they’re trying to get personal and hurt my feelings here. Like why would you say that, that is, there was things that were said that was like that the the judges aren’t, that’s not going to be the arbiters. They’re not going to tip it in your favor, because you brought up this point about me being like, just a, an average white guy from the Midwest, you know what I mean? Like–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –I was like, that doesn’t help you–
BOBBY: So irrelevant.
JERRY: –to be mean to me. Yeah, it’s irrelevant. I was like, “Man, you’re really just just bad”.
BOBBY: I guess there’s–
ALEX: [44:57]
BOBBY: –to these two schools of thought and law where it’s like you make the logos case where where you know, you’re appealing to their logic, the Nationals are making a case on, hey, you had a down year you had a couple, you had a tough start to this year, and then you turned it around. But that’s why you’re only worth 2.2 million and then, and then someone in there has to appeal to their deeper rooted emotional side, just in case those arbiters underneath all of their straight faces are really good [45:24]–
ALEX: That’s what it was, like yeah, he really is just an average white guy.
JERRY: Without without getting into details, the the Nationals argument was, this was go this was after the 2014 season. So this was I actually got traded, like less than a month later, uhm in spring training after our arbitration case. So–
BOBBY: [45:42] 2015 Mets.
JERRY: Yeah, exactly. So we are we I played that 2014 season, I got traded over in the offseason. And so ahh we were going off a season in which I was with the Nationals. So that was a fun approach. Their approach was, you were great in 2012, you were a little bit worse in 2013. And in 2014, you’re declining even more. And I did have a down season to begin like to start it was kind of up and down. Uhm and then my argument was, look, I started here, and then I ended up high. I was like during the entire last month of September, and all through the playoffs whenever there was a high leverage outing. This is what this is who you brought in, you brought in this guy who you’re saying was terrible. But when the game your season was on the line, this is who you brought in. And so that was a fun argument that is it legit back and forth one or–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –the other kind of thing. Because I started kind of terrible and then I found my way and found where I sat in, where I fit in into that bullpen. Ahh and so that was that was a fun argument to hear back and forth. Because you it’s they have a they have a foot to stand on.
BOBBY: Had you stayed on the Nats, Jerry, do you think that it would have been lingering at all with you the arbitration case going back and forth? Whether from your perspective or from their perspective, as the team organization–
JERRY: Uhm–
BOBBY: –and how they thought about you?
JERRY: I think so.
BOBBY: Yeah,
JERRY: I don’t think so. I didn’t hold anything personal at all. Because I understand that it was I understood that it was a business, it was never, it was never uhm, I can’t believe these guys will give me this, you know, there I can’t–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –believe they would talk about. So I never took anything personal, when I got traded, I use that as billboard material for myself. I was like-
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –they’re gonna trade me inner division. And they’re gonna, they think I’m so terrible, that they don’t care that I’m going to face them so many times during the season. And so that was an easy motivational tool, as an athlete to to manufacture this, whether it was real or not, I was able to use that every time I faced the Nationals. I don’t think they did it, but they could have.
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: There’s some–
ALEX: Yeah.
JERRY: –there’s some, there’s some things that have been said that that’s the reason that I got traded was because I won that arbitration case. And I never I don’t know whether it is or not. I do know that I’m friendly with the team. And I I still have nothing but respect. And I’ve never felt anything but respect in return. But you know, who who knows? Who knows the truth?
ALEX: Have you talked with other players who maybe have similarly been through this process and come out feeling differently at all, maybe maybe a little more, not animosity, but frustrations? Uhh maybe did take it a little more personally, something like that?
JERRY: Absolutely. You know, some of those guys that need that kind of big bravado, that ego, get a get punched a little bit. And this this thought process that your team cares about you wants to be the best ahh version of yourself and wants to treat you like that and maybe says these things to you. And then all of a sudden, when there’s somebody you know, has to dip into their wallet, they treat you differently. A lot of guys take that personal understandably.
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: Uhm, I’ve, you know, of the guys that I know that I’ve been through the process, I’d say it’s like 75% people that that take it like me for the most part and just able to brush it off. And 25% of the guys I’d say are like, a little bit taken aback that these people are are willing to go to some of the lengths they are to to pay you under your value or what you think is under your value.
ALEX: Yeah, it is definitely kind of a rude awakening, especially if you are kind of a you know, a bit of a burgeoning star, right? That the team has ahh, has protected and and nurtured and brought up through the system, and then you’re hit with the reality of the business of Baseball, right? And that really–
JERRY: Yeah.
ALEX: –ultimately, they have to figure out how much to pay you and as you said they’re trying to it’s their job to do the to do the least.
BOBBY: Like we talked about 200,000 for me, 2.2 to 2.4 I mean, that’s–
ALEX: Hmm.
JERRY: –win win. Like I’m still playing baseball for 2.2 million at the least you know, that’s silly. Some of these numbers are are huge gaps, you know, multi-millions.
BOBBY: Yeah,
JERRY: And and these are precedent setters to where in your first year of arbitration, if you shoot too high and you get the under all of a sudden you’re chasing that for the next couple of years until you hit free agency. And so–
ALEX: Yeah.
JERRY: –it’s it’s these, their stakes are a lot higher for these superstars to to find somewhere closer to their actual value to not overshoot. So it’s it’s the stakes are higher for superstar players and guys that are, you know, MVP candidates or Cy Young or Rookie of the Year these things actually matter and and the stakes get higher as the salary goes up.
BOBBY: Yeah, I mean, just for context, the Mookie Betts set the record for arbitration not that long ago, after he had won MVP, with the Red Sox, he was still an arbitration player, which is very funny. Uhm he, he’s he’s amazing quite an amazing Baseball player, him and the Red Sox agreed on a $27 million deal. So if he came in at 35, and the Red Sox came in at 20, we’re talking about a $15 million difference here that they were eventually able to agree on. Because, you know, the Red Sox don’t want to piss off Mookie Betts even though they ended up trading him anyway. So [51:02]–
JERRY: [51:03] that’s, that’s the difference of of leverage, but it is it’s these huge numbers. Because if if Mookie Betts loses, any they only have to pay him 20 million. Maybe he is worth 27. But because he argued that at 35, that he they can’t prove it. And so and all of a sudden, he’s making 20 It’s one or the other. So if–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –you’re making 20, the next MVP the next Mookie Betts is going to come up and be like, God, man, he he [51:29]–
BOBBY: [51:29] one of this.
ALEX: Yeah.
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: And then there and your work there, it’s the funny thing is, he’s Mookie Betts is still getting underpaid. And my you know, as long as he’s healthy, even if he’s not healthy, put his body in line. That’s again, that’s separate argument. But these numbers are are still so low in arbitration based off of what your actual market value is. So–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –these these numbers do mean something.
BOBBY: Yeah, he’s having a Mike Trout season making 27 million fighting tooth and nail for it. But then Trout is making 40 you know, like it because he was a free agent earlier. So yeah, I mean, that that kind of brings us to our last question, Jerry. I wanted to ask you, as someone who’s been involved so heavily with the PA, uhm obviously the PA was involved in your arbitration cases you laid out, uhm we we have heard some early reporting of some changes to the arbitration system or some proposed changes to the arbitration system. I wonder if having gone through it, having talked to a lot of guys who have gone through it, having thought about arbitration a lot. Do you think that we should get rid of it? Do you think that it needs major overhauls? Wha–what is the kind of your view on the the long term liability of this system?
JERRY: So I like the arbitration system, because it it, it’s like a, it’s a first introduction into market value, but it’s also under team control. So you get to stay with where you’re comfortable. Because being a player, especially a young guy coming up the continuity of being in a in a same locale, with the same team, with the same front office. Guys that you interact with as a as a, you know, a kid that comes up at 20, 21, 24, even. Your introduction to baseball on that level, and then ultimately, making relationships and then going through the business side of things. Having that familiarity with a team and an organization and ahh and your agent and and everything helps. So I think arbitration is important, you know, I don’t want to speculate on changes that I think should be made. But I do know that the teams have figured out how to take advantage of the current system. And where you don’t make arbitration money until three years of service time, they are maximizing the number of players that come in under that number. And then–
ALEX: Yeah.
JERRY: –as soon as soon as you hit that number, a lot of they’re just letting a bunch of guys flood the market. And then it also dilutes because they’re just cutting them loose. And so they’re gonna find ways to take advantage and manipulate every single system that you’re going to come up with. But I I think the arbitration process is, you know, maybe it’s two years, you know, you reach it automatically at two years and go from there, but I I I do think it’s important, I think it’s uhm it’s a fair process. Because it’s a non partial three judge panel that gets to decide what you and your what you’re worth, and without the possibility of you just getting left in no, no team and spring training, you know. Like the the what they did to the middle class guys that couldn’t find a job because they didn’t want to pay him uhm for a couple of years. But you know, I like arbitration, I think it’s important, I think it’s fun, I really enjoy it. I’m I’m not sure agents and or, you know, the the Commissioner’s Office appreciates it on the level that my you know, former pre law student appreciates that. So–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: Ahh I may be, you know, a rare bird it was we talked about earlier in that sense, but I think I think ultimately, it’s a good step along before free agency.
ALEX: Uhh well, we don’t want to take any more of your time, Jerry. Thank you for for getting getting down and dirty with us. I mean, these are the nuts and bolts is that, as you said, many people are, are somewhat reticent to really talk about in depth, so we appreciate you being such earnest–
JERRY: Yes.
ALEX: –of your time.
JERRY: –it’s it’s a touchy subject, that’s my like I said, it’s my pleasure, like I I have, you know, I only went through the actual for arbitration with the Nationals, and I still love the Nationals, like, you know–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –they may not feel that I think they feel the same way about me, I have really good interactions with them. But you know uhh, I think they’re a classy organization. And–
BOBBY: We also we also talk about these clubs so categorically, it’s like the Nationals–
JERRY: Yeah.
BOBBY: –or the Nationals don’t want. It’s like the Nationals are–
JERRY: Yeah.
BOBBY: –an organization comprised of people that you have individual relationships with.
JERRY: Yup.
BOBBY: And they, you know, those people have to serve many different interests, and mainly the owners interests. And it’s not always because they want to serve the owners interests, it’s like that we’re sort of like, crossing many lines are blurring many lines, I should say. And so I you know–
JERRY: And and I speak on behalf of a very small group of relief pitchers that really don’t ultimately matter, in the grand scheme of things as far as, like a team’s priority list, I understand that they’re not going to negotiate with me for a month leading up to it. Uhm but I would ahh out of respect, you know, anticipate a phone call maybe a little bit of a back and forth, you know-
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –what I mean, like, out of respect for me as a human being, I understand that I don’t matter that much when you’re, you know, I think Harper was a arbitration eligible that year you know, you have guys that that are significant contributors on a grand level–
BOBBY: I’ve heard of him, where if I heard of him? Was it that year, win the NL MVP last year?
JERRY: Yeah, for the second time and beast now all of a sudden, he’s underrated, which is amazing. Uhm but I think I think I have a unique perspective because like, ahh I I played such a behind the scenes kind of under the radar my entire career as far as like, I’m never going to be on a billboard. You know what I mean? Nobody’s going to come to the ballpark to where you know to see Jerry Blevins you know, come out like it’s I’m just a different style of player and so I enjoyed I enjoyed it because I had no no real repercussions as far as if if they pissed me off I’m not going to be mad and all of a sudden it’s the entire organization is feared left because of how I feel. Like I just no–
BOBBY: Yeah.
JERRY: –I don’t have that impact. So–
BOBBY: Yeah, so it’s freeing in a way.
JERRY: But I enjoy talking about it. I like the process and I love what you guys do because you bring a unique voice to it. Uhm because there are people that are interested in it and and and you’re pro labor so I’m all for it.
BOBBY: Well, thank you for joining us and thank you for being our player arbitration representative. Would you like to plug anything? Would you like to plug the podcasts? Anything specific?
JERRY: Yeah, I mean, if you guys want to tune in Mets fans out there, ahh Shay Station, uhm ahh it’s Jomboy Media, me and and Jolly Olive a huge Mets fan, he makes great content. I’m on Shea Anything every once in a while every other week with ah SNY. Uhm @jerryblevins, Twitter, social media whatever the case may be, if not just just enjoy Baseball. It’s gonna get ugly, I think coming up. Uhh but but ultimately, we love Baseball and that’s what we’re here for.
ALEX: Jerry Blevins, a rare bird. Thank you.
[58:42]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: Okay, thank you. Jerry Blevins, returning guests, Jerry Blevins. A lot of interesting things in there which we don’t have time to totally unpack just yet because we have a whole nother conversation to get to we’ll probably be unpacking some of the stuff that Jerry said over the course of the next few weeks. Uhm now let’s go to our conversation with Kevin Goldstein, current writer of FanGraphs, former Executive with the Houston Astros. All right, we are now joined by Kevin Goldstein, current writer at FanGraphs, former many different titles with the Houston Astros. Kevin, thank you for joining us sir.
KEVIN: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.
BOBBY: What were all your titles before we get through here, because Alex and I really keep this up and there are many different things cited in awful announcing that calm and everything. So what what did you actually introduce yourself as?
KEVIN: I’m just so happy you’re using awful and now it’s because your [59:34] career.
BOBBY: Well, it’s our it’s our North Star here at Tipping Pitches–
KEVIN: I understand.
BOBBY: –labor baseball podcast.
KEVIN: Exactly. Uhm, so ahh the Astros had to think for commas in titles.
BOBBY: Uhm.
KEVIN: So I always had a combo which I always liked. So uhm I had three titles during my time dashes, I had a coordinator comma, pro scouting, Director, comma, pro scouting and Special–
BOBBY: Uhh.
KEVIN: –Assistant to the General Manager comma player personnel.
BOBBY: So you’re keeping the the the comma industry and business–
KEVIN: Exactly.
BOBBY: –[1:00:07] cards. Uhm so we wanted to talk to you because we wanted to talk about arbitration, we wanted to talk to someone who has seen it from the other side, from the team side, and seeing how it plays out. I think first and foremost, I would like to start with just what was your understanding of your role when it came to arbitration? Because I want to kind of establish how closely or not closely you were involved in you joked with us that one of your greatest career accomplishments was never getting dragged into an arbitration hearing or case or anything like that. So what why, why did you feel that that was one of your greatest accomplishments?
KEVIN: Because I’ve I’ve seen people do arbitration work, and it’s absolutely–can I curse on the show?
BOBBY: Yes.
ALEX: [1:00:46]
KEVIN: –it’s absolutely fucking miserable, ahh it’s horrible. Uhm so, you know, arbitration was something like I said, I didn’t really get involved with the timing was never good. And it just wasn’t my world. And uhm but it is, it’s a pretty miserable process. And you know, people during spring training, I have to go to Florida or Arizona and put on suits, and go to Kinko’s at 3am to printouts, you know, slide packages out of PowerPoint and things like that. It just seems like a bad, bad time. And you know, and, you know, we’ll get into more on this later, I’m sure. But the thing I hate the most about arbitration is just how accurate that name is. Uhm it’s arbitrary, and and, and, you know, it’s it’s a really, really bad system, the end game, the last mile of the arbitration system is an absolute nightmare in the sense that you, you win the case, or you lose the case. But uhm you know, like the Supreme Court rules on something they then released, like this 70 page document that says this is our ruling and why and all the everyone chimes in, this is why I voted yes, is why I voted no. Uhm you all you get as a ruling from the arbiter or the panel of arbiters in this case, uhm you get no reasoning why, and and uhm I have never, ever and I’ve probably asked this question a 100 times, uhm I have never ever talked to anyone who I worked with, or anyone, another team who understood why they won, or lost an arbitration case. You know, I wrote a piece of FanGraphs earlier this year during arbitration season, we’re actually called friends in the Industry Executives. And I said, I want to ask you a simple question, which is if instead of doing the arbitration case, or hiring people, many teams hire outside contractors to handle their arbitration cases. Instead of doing that if you simply hired a clown, and that clown showed up to the arbitration case, and simply held up one slide that said, we think player X deserves this much. Do you think that would change your win-loss record in arbitration? Uhm and for the most part, the answer was no. So like, what do we do it here? It’s, it’s a really silly system. Uhm I don’t think it’s gonna necessarily change that much with the CBA. But it’s a mess.
BOBBY: But how about if you hired Tom Hanks on cameo to make your case for you in a minute long video?
KEVIN: Yeah, to be–it’s funny, because like, the biggest concern teams had was not just the one slice of this was like, Well, I don’t know how the cloud would play. You know, that was that was, that was their biggest question. You know, it wasn’t about just the one slide that says it’s plain text, instead of having, you know, meticulously prepared, you know, for weeks or paid arbitration people or Lawyers, literally 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s of dollars to prepare and present. Uhm it it it makes no sense.
ALEX: Yeah. You uhh, as you mentioned, you kind of came from the the player evaluation side of things, and that’s mostly where you are your your work was focused with the Astros. Can you speak to how, if at all, you supported the arbitration process, like we’re, we’re teams reliant on, you know, uhh player evaluators to say, Hey, do you think this this number is accurate? Can you can you give us data on on why this player should make this much? Or or how how we should be accurately valuing them?
KEVIN: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think uhm, you know, if you are really good player evaluator, there’s part of your there’s an aspect to your job that takes the E off of that, where you’re not just evaluating but you’re valuating you’re you’re trying to how much is this player to how much this player get paid relative to the uhm current market dynamics in baseball? And so, you know, that becomes a question. There were people far smarter than me who were doing, uhm and you’ve seen these, like, you know, publicly I know, MLB trade rumors publicly listed like this, or arbitration estimates.
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: You know, we think this guy will get, you know, 6.8, or whatever. Uhm and, you know, every team does that for themselves as well. And so their spark unit doing that, and then, you know, my job might be, well you know, we think this guy’s worth, I’m just gonna make up a number $7.2 million. We think that’s kind of where does arbitration number is? Uhh and then, you know, an aspect that I think not enough people maybe talk about it, it’s just like it has to come down to well, let’s look at the free agent class. Maybe there’s a player that we’d like better in the spot for 6 million that we think we can get for 6 million, you know, and and that gives us an extra $1.2 million to spend elsewhere. You know, and all of a sudden, maybe we can get that reliever who wants seven and we only have six, you know?
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: And so it it turns into give us a lot of moving pieces here more than just player A once that much, is it worth it? Uhm it’s are there other players out there who you might be able to get here like just as much is there a better way to to kind of, uhm you know, redistribute this amount of money on the market, either via free agent or picking up a contract via trade? Uhh and so it comes down to, you know, at times, I did get numbers bounced off me, hey, we’re thinking about offering this guy 5.4? Does that sound right to you? You know, this is what the we run the model, run the formula, but now we’re going to put it in front of a human, which is always a good move. And and so you know, that’s something I got involved with, but also more of, you know, we have this player at this position. This is his number, uhm before we get too deep into the, into the weeds on this one, are there better ways to do this? And should we maybe just nontender?
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: That’s the that’s the kind of place where I would come into it. Other than that, it was more just kind of, uhm you know, supporting the arbitration team by sending them jokes at two in the morning.
ALEX: A crucial, crucial part.
KEVIN: Absolutely.
ALEX: If and probably not talked about enough of the arbitration.
BOBBY: Being a good co worker is very important in all industries. Uhm so so the way that you describe it, it’s kind of like, okay, you have a group of pre arb guys, you don’t have to worry about what you’re going to pay them. You have a group of arb guys, you maybe decide about how you’re going to handle the arb at last, you know, after you decide what you’re going to do about free agency, and the guys who are already on contract. Because you have a total salary number that you don’t really want to go over based off what the owner wants to spend, or what the GM is is willing to push the owner for. And so then these, these arb guys get kind of squeezed into that small middle class, right? Where like, we only have 20 million total for our bin and to spend here on these five arb players and we have to decide who to push hardest against to try to get them to settle, or who to actually take to arb. Can you kind of from the team perspective, like, why would a team fight very very hard over what seems like not that much money to the team? Like you–
KEVIN: [1:07:11]
BOBBY: –often see–
KEVIN: Yeah.
BOBBY: –people complaining online, or, you know, people who come at it from our kind of pro labor perspective, or support the players or whatever. And the numbers are like, Hey, we just had Jerry Blevins on right before you so 2.4 million versus 2.2 million. Why are the Nationals making a stink about $200,000? Can you kind of demystify that a little bit from the team perspective?
KEVIN: No.
BOBBY: Or Trout.
KEVIN: It’s funny, I mean, I can think of a case during my time with the Astros that was actually less than 200,000. In terms of the gap. Uhm there’s a couple things going on there. And I think one dynamic is is uhm is the LRD, uhm which is the Labor Relations Division, Major League Baseball, Major League Baseball, this deal with the LRD, when it comes to arbitration is the LRD, like pushing teams to not give in, if you will. Uhm and so you know, again, this was like, this was like, I wish I remember the numbers, it was literally something like 1.5 versus 1.65. That’s it, yeah. And and and someone I know, a someone who was above me who I worked with, I remember like being in in that person’s office, and that person saying to me, I can’t believe we’re going to go to a fucking hearing over $150,000. But here we are, you know, and and so times MLB does push you not to necessarily give in, uhm you know, and then there is like, just kind of the principle that we’ve kind of gone from many teams to most teams use of the of the file to go, you know, if we can’t work it out, before we get here, we’re going to file and that’s the end of negotiations. Uhm in general, that’s not necessarily as hard and fast a rule as you’d like to think. I know, plenty of teams who are filed to go who’ve gotten deals done after filing, uhm you know, and and usually it’s because the player side, you know, gives a little bit but uhm yeah, there is kind of pressure from the LRD to do file and go and there is pressure to uhm you know, kind of kind of hold your ground and a lot of places.
ALEX: You I mean, it’s funny, you bring that up because Jerry mentioned as well, kind of the role that the team plays in the in the uhh argument process versus the role that like the Commissioner’s Office plays the role that the league itself plays Do you have a sense of of why you know why the league might say hey, we don’t want you you know, we want you to to put up this fight, right? Don’t let them you know, argue for that one, you know, 150-200k I mean, is it a Is it like a principle thing? Is it like a precedent sort of thing that you know, if you give if you give one player 150k–
KEVIN: Right.
ALEX: –And you have to give the next player 150k.
KEVIN: It it’s very much, so you get these situations where uhm va–various it’s a rising tide theory if you’re, you know, the rising tide lifts all boats kind of thing. And and the players see it that way, but so does the team side and the team side is ultimately Major League Baseball. And so you know, Major League Baseball is trying to keep salaries reasonable or down. And the players are trying to keep salaries up. And it’s it’s, you know, this dynamic goes across uhm all aspects of of of the offseason. In the sense that, you know, during, you know, right now, you know, obviously we’re in free agency for at least seven more days before they shut shut down. But uhm in during free agency, there was a reverse pressure, uhm not on the mid range, guys, but on the, you know, in this year’s class on the Shures, there’s the Corea’s, the stories uhm to take as much money as they can to take the biggest deal. Uhm you know, other if you’re the mid range guys are kind of allowed to have other considerations, hey, I want to do spring training in Florida, I live in Florida, I can spend six weeks sleeping in my own bed, you know, hey, I’m, you know, I’m from Baltimore. And I can play for the Orioles and then be at home and that kind of stuff, those considerations can really come into effect. But for the bigger name free agents, the the union puts tremendous pressure on them to take the biggest number in order to bring up salary levels. Excuse me. And so, you know, this kind of thing happens, you know, across all levels everywhere, where there’s this, this constant battle of trying to hm precedences a good word, you know, trying to to to you increase those numbers, and you’re trying to it means a lot if, you know, reliever acts a good seventh inning reliever is now generally seen by the market is worth six and a half million as opposed to six. Because the next time you build on that platform, six and a half can become seven, as opposed to six becoming six and a half. And so you’re just trying to keep that trend line going in the right direction. And so and and both teams are trying to to to, you know, put that in the right direction. And uhh you know, and and keep that going is this is this constant, ugly battle.
BOBBY: It does feel like this very, you know, pre World War one style of fighting, right? You’re like trying to move the line forward, a little bit of a move it back and then you move it forward and then the man who tries the hardest wins.
KEVIN: And absolutely in the trenches are very, very muddy and filled with mustard gas. It is absolutely yeah, absolutely.
BOBBY: uhm can you can you talk about I mean, maybe you didn’t work directly or provide direct data support. But from the team side, what kind of data? Are they looking to come to the table with? Is it just like, what is on what is up for grabs in arbitration that you can kind of make that case even if it is very arbitrary, as you laid out? Like, what–
KEVIN: Yeah.
BOBBY: –is the team trying to what what, like statistical or work ethic or whatever case are they trying to make it the same?
KEVIN: It absolutely sucks, uhm because the arbitration, what arbitrators value, well, let me go backwards. it’s really important to understand that when you’re speaking to this panel of arbitrators, they are members of the National arbitration board or something like that national association of arbitrators.
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: Uhm it is quite possible, it is actually quite likely that they don’t know anything about Baseball, that’s really important to understand.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
KEVIN: And so because of that, the things people care about is very much based on counting stats, you’re mostly back of the baseball card stats, you can’t show up, you know, an arbitration hearing, and say, hey, you know, here’s this guy swinging strike rate on a slider, and here’s his, you know, here’s how, as the vertical movement went down, and that’s why we’re concerned about what, like, you can’t play that game. It’s like, at times, it’s really, you know, things like late appearances, right? Can be can really matter and, and, and home runs, and like real back baseball card stuff. The the the biggest piece of the whole thing is the comp world, you know, you’re finding comps, and it’s very, and and and that’s the biggest part of any arbitration discussion is you’re showing up and saying, Well, here’s the player, he compares to this guy who makes three and this guy makes 3.25, this guy makes three and a half, so he’s probably worth 3.25. And then on the agent side, they go, Well, wait a second, we think he compares very well to this player who makes five and this guy who makes 4.75, this guy makes five and a quarter, so he’s worth five. And so it’s all about comps with those comps are also based on the same not necessarily great stats to gauge a player value on.
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: Uhm and so you know, that’s where a lot of the work goes into is kind of you’re trying to come up with these rights to these these proper comps and stuff. But again, you’re using the wrong numbers in the first place. Because you’re dealing with people who are arbitrators, and not baseball people, which is, you know, problem number 8,625 of this process.
ALEX: It really is kind of remarkable, you know, seeing how much they being asked–
KEVIN: It’s unbelievably dumb, yeah the more–
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: –about arbitration.
BOBBY: [1:14:45]
KEVIN: The more you sit there and go this I can’t believe this is dumber than I thought.
ALEX: Yeah, it’s I mean, it’s an it’s an aging system, right? Now and when it was ushered in, you know, I guess 40 plus years ago, right? It made sense. And it was I mean, it was a win for the CBA, ight? Because it was actually negotiating for more more agency in a sense of players, right? And ultimate–
KEVIN: Right.
ALEX: –free agency is the is the ultimate goal there, right? But then again, you know, 30, 40, 50 years on, we’re evaluating and talking about players in such different terms, that it is kind of interesting that we’re still stuck in this, like, you know, all or nothing case that as you, as you pointed out, is often being made to people who may not know anything about baseball. I think that’s the–
KEVIN: Right.
ALEX: –thing that boggles most people’s minds.
BOBBY: Yeah. Especially because, because teams are not evaluating on those back of the baseball card numbers anyway, either. So–
KEVIN: Not at all, not at all.
BOBBY: –they know that they’re gonna lose–
KEVIN: Right.
BOBBY: –an arbitration case over those numbers. They’re just gonna nontender you so so it’s like, it’s very disjointed. And it doesn’t it doesn’t really line up anymore. So I’m wondering, Kevin, do you, do you, how would you reform arbitration? Solve arbitration for us please, but would it be keeping the system and changing the years that it takes to get there or changing the numbers that are allowable within the making your case? Or would it be replacing it with FanGraphs war? And then [1:16:15], you don’t have to comment on that one, because you’re a FanGraphs employee.
KEVIN: But I actually, you know what, can I comment on that one?
BOBBY: Sure.
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: No, I I think that came out, and and I think it was, you know, really wrongly perceived. And and, you know, look, I’m glad people respect FanGraphs for measurement. I think, you know, I know it’s something that teams used. At the same time, you know, what Major League Baseball was saying at that time was like, something like FanGraphs war. Yeah, meaning like a more advanced–
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: –number, you know, anything.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
BOBBY: Whisper down the lane kind of messed that one up a little bit–
KEVIN: Right. but but they weren’t thinking about that, like, if they want to go that route. And it’s possible, something like that might work, I don’t know, like that, they would not use FanGraphs war, they would not, because what they would have to do at that point is then have a negotiation, then this would be like, this would be some serious fly on the wall stuff I would kill for this what. They were not having a negotiation between Major League Baseball and the players union to that formula.
ALEX: Uh-hmm.
KEVIN: And and there are aspects to uhm almost any kind of window replacement system that would that that, you know, favor, or do not favor certain families a player. So it’s very–
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: –hard to do well in a war number if you’re a reliever, because a bulk. And so you know, guy like Blevins would really get screwed here. But so at a closer, you know, and because, you know, the war is just kind of going off innings, and there’s not a real appreciation of leverage and things like that. And so, you know, they’re really trying to say was, you know, to, you know, can we come up with a formula, and it was more of like, a, like, FanGraphs, or whatever that formula was, it would have to be negotiated between the union and Major League Baseball. Uhm–
BOBBY: Something that you couldn’t agree on within three weeks before that deadline, huh?
KEVIN: I mean, well, I mean, I think that’s it’s fine that they that they, you know, throw it out there. I mean, they’re, they have a gap, you know, as wide as the Panama Canal on about 172 other issues and seven days to go. So why not, you know, just add that to the list. You know, it’s it’s it’s funny you I don’t follow other sports. And I have a cat.
BOBBY: Ohh, hi. Guest appearance, some thoughts about the arbitration system?
KEVIN: Yeah. Nico doesn’t like arbitration either. And there’s the dog, Parker, good stuff. And so we’re having remember I was, so with arbitration, like, I don’t fully follow other sports, but I have talked to you about how some contract things work in other sports and like, Are there lessons to be learned from I don’t there’s any lesson to be learned from football, but are those to be learned from the NBA, you know, and how they do things and kind of this concept of, you know, that kind of these max free agents and things like that, that allow players to keep their own teams because they’re the ones in the position to pay them the most, and things like that, that’s a that’s a fair question to ask at the same time. Like someone you know, I’ve actually have a friend who’s an AGM for an NBA team, even though I can’t tell you a single player on his team. And he told me that it’s it’s fraught with, it’s fraught with workarounds and bugs and and all sorts of little holes in the system. So, uhh, you know, I don’t know, I think are the I think an arbitration system is a good one. I just think this arbitration system is bad one. You know, and that’s kind of the way to go. And I think, you know, the way we measure our players get to arbitration is really bad one. And I think, you know, we have to be in a position where, you know, players who players can earn earn arbitration earlier by being really good. You know, I think if you’re someone like, you know, like body or Fernando Tatís, and obviously, you know, Tatís signed a huge extension, and if you’re Wander Franco, you know, who, who who’s, you know, I think if you’re good enough to earn arbitration earlier, and you have that much, you’re providing that much value to your team, you should be in a position where you’re earning more than use the industry term zero to three money. Just kind of that fixed number. You know, and I think we need to to get rid of things like service time manipulation, which is all around arbitration. You know, and a possible solution like that is some sort of like, you guys have two clocks, they have a clock that starts when they sign and they start the clock that starts when they get to the big leagues, you know, their their Major League service time clock. I think maybe it’s time to get rid of the Major League service time clock. And so you have a clock, and it starts when you sign your first contract, you know, and it it’s it’s, I think what we need is a, you know, this gets outside of arbitration for a second, but you know, I’m a big fan of “Don’t hate the player, Hate the game”, and you have to want to be mad that teams are tanking I get it, but like, why wouldn’t they, they’re actually incentivized to do so. And I think what Major League Baseball needs is a ruleset, that incentivizes teams to put their best product on the field. And so, you know, if you if you’re starting a clock, when a guy signs a contract, as a certain club was in the big leagues. You know, Adley Rutschman, would be in Baltimore right now. You know–
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: –and then things like that. And I think so it’s more about having arbitration being part of what is a much larger ruleset. That encourages, not encourages, and incentivizes teams to put their best 25 players on the field at a time.
ALEX: You you mentioned Wander Franco and obviously that news broke. I mean, like–
BOBBY: 12 [1:21:10]
ALEX: Yeah.
KEVIN: [1:21:13] my show yeah.
ALEX: That’s always the best feeling. But I’m, I’m curious, if you are able to illuminate at all, why a team would, you know, buy out those arbiters versus letting the player kind of play it out, right? And see how it goes. And obviously, with a player like Franco, there’s a lot of incentive to say, well, we just want to lock him up now before he you know, if he gets any better, like, we’re, you know, we’re gonna get screwed because he’s gonna want me more money, and he sees the free agent market, but but are you able to illuminate at all why you know, how a team can make those calculations.
KEVIN: I mean, you’re trying to lock you’re, you’re, in general those deals tend to pay the player fairly within current arbitration for arbitration, you’re you’re really trying to buy a discount on those free agent years, you know, that’s really what you’re trying to do. I think, you know, maybe a better example to illustrate I’m trying to say is the Jose Berrios extension. And you’re like, oh, it’s seven 131. And then you divide 131 by seven. And that’s not the way to do this. Because he was doing he was gonna get somewhere around 11, this year is and and our three. And so all of a sudden look at it, like it’s 11 for the arb year, and then it’s six times 20. That’s what that deal is in reality. And so in general, you know, you are tend, you tend to put, you know, for those kinds of extensions, the player tends to get paid fairly for the arb years, whatever’s left in Franco’s case, obviously, he has a couple zero through three years left before the arb years. And so it’s a little more complex. And his deals very complex, all the escalators, and things like that. But in general, you’re making you’re paying them kind of fairly market rates, if you will, through the free agency, and you’re trying to get a discount for the post free agency and exchange obviously, for the security of having the deal done.
BOBBY: Yeah, and not and not having to worry about the about, am I going to go to arbitration this year? Or I have to renegotiate this every every single year [1:23:04]–
KEVIN: In arbitration, it’s a ton of work, I guess, it’s all this time, it’s all this work. And honestly, you know, I talk to people in front offices, you know, all the time. And you this time of year, like it’s I always kind of like, Oh, hey, man, how many, how many arb cases you got? Like every reaction, I don’t give a three or 17. Like, it doesn’t matter what the number is like, they’re not happy–
BOBBY: Yeah.
KEVIN: –about it. It’s all this work they don’t want to do.
BOBBY: One is too many. It’s like [1:23:28]–
KEVIN: One.
BOBBY: –yeah.
KEVIN: [1:23:31] it’s it’s a huge pain in the ass.
BOBBY: Uhm okay, well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us.
KEVIN: I hope I just confused you more.
ALEX: I know, I think we think we solved arbitration.
BOBBY: [1:23:43] we can just submit this if we can just get it to the to the negotiating table before December 1st. Everything is fixed. Uhm–
KEVIN: I’ll call Tony Clark. I’ll call Rob Manfred we we will just send them a link to the show.
BOBBY: Where where can people find uhh what you do for FanGraphs, your podcast, work anything like that?
KEVIN: Then go to FanGraphs. And that’s where my stuff is. I have a weekly podcast called Chin Music, which is uhm two and a half hours of stuff every week. We’ve rotating rotating co hosts and lots of fun guests. Uhm if you want to watch me be an asshole on Twitter, it’s Kevin_Goldstein.
ALEX: Thank you so much, Kevin.
KEVIN: Thanks for having me, guys.
[1:24:20]
[Transition Music]
BOBBY: All right, thank you to Kevin. Thank you again to Jerry. Thank you to you Alex. That beautiful history of arbitration. Thank you everybody, for listening. We hope that this was useful, a document that you can point other people back to when they say what the hell is salary arbitration, and why does it matter so much? It does matter a lot, it is a key character in the story of the labor landscape. So we wanted to talk about it. Just now as the CBA is about to expire. Over the next couple weeks, we’re going to be doing a couple more episodes like this about key CBA concepts with some more guests. Next week’s will be about the competitive balance sex, how it came to be, how it’s played out, like, like a de facto salary cap for a lot of teams, and what the future of it might look like. So if you enjoyed this, please send it to someone else who you think might enjoy it. And be on the lookout for the CBT episode next week. Last thing, we have new t shirts dropping, just in time for the holiday season the gift giving season. Two new t shirts dropping, one inspired by an Oakland Athletics alternate logo. One inspired by a retro version of the Arizona Diamondbacks logo. Be on the lookout for those this week. Alex, give people the exclusive promo code for this new launch.
ALEX: Yes, Bobby, you the listener can use the code STRIKE, that is all caps strike for 15% off your purchase. These ahh this merch is dropping on Friday, this coming Friday. We also have stickers coming, which I’m super stoked about. It’s gonna run the gamut across our designs, and ahh–
BOBBY: Your favorite old ones, your favorite new ones.
ALEX: Exactly, yeah.
BOBBY: Once you’ve never seen before.
ALEX: Slap them on your laptop, slap it on your telephone pole, slap it on your boss’ laptop. I don’t know. slap it on that slap it in the seat at the Arizona Fall League.
BOBBY: The bathroom wall of your favorite punk music venue.
ALEX: Sure. Any way you see fit. We’ll leave that up to you all but keep an eye out for those dropping too.
BOBBY: Okay, that’s it. Thanks, everyone for listening. We’ll be back next week. Unless there’s a sudden agreement on a CBA which seems unlikely but then maybe we’ll come back earlier. Thanks everybody.
[1:26:50]
[Music]
[1:27:01]
{Outro]
ALEX RODRIGUEZ: Hello everybody, I’m Alex Rodriguez, Tipping Pitches, Tipping Pitches. This is the one that I love the most Tipping Pitches. So we’ll see you next week. See ya.
BOBBY: Alex, give people the exclusive promo code for this new launch, which we did not come up with yet. So you think of that now.
Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil
Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil
Tipping Pitches 
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